Religion in junior infants

realdanbreen

ash23 wrote: »

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I was told if we didn't go to mass every Sunday in May we would definitely go to hell because it was the month of Mary etc etc.

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I am around a while and I have never ever heard of anything like that. Who told you that you would go to hell?

Neyite

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

My other point(which is the purpose of this thread) is that I can't get my head around people availing of this wonderful free education in a school with a Catholic ethos and then moaning about the kids being taught about Catholicism.

I've a preschooler. In a couple of years, I need to put him into a school. Now, out of interest, I looked at the map for ET schools in my area. There are 6 in the entire county.

The nearest one, to me, with the easiest overall commute is a 25km round trip from home-school-work, and would take about 2 hours when I factor in commuter traffic. Who has four hours each day on top of a 40 hour week? I'd have to have him in the car for 7am, and need to drop him at the school at 7.30am if I wanted to get to work on time. Which the school likely wont be able to facilitate. What school is open at that time in the morning?? Not to mention the fuel costs.

If I wanted a catholic school, there are 5 almost immediately on my doorstep, he would have some of his neighbourhood friends there, its down the road from where my partner works so if he got sick at school he could be collected quickly.

And I live and work in a city.

So its unfair to tell parents that they have a choice of a non-catholic school, but really, we don't. Our choices really are Rock/Hard place.

I'm grateful that we have 'free' education. But that comes with strings attached, in this case, religion. I would be a fan of moving religious instruction out of our education system altogether and into a Sunday School setup. That way, the parents who feel its important that their child receives religious instruction gets it from the right people, with the right training. This gives everybody no matter what their religion more choice in education for their children.

But the RCC will never endorse a Sunday School arrangement because that's too similar to the Protestant religions.

SpaceTime

I definitely wasn't too prone to brain washing but I was forced off to confession and had to make up sins to keep the priest happy!

I was a very clean living kid! I didn't really have any sins (other than lying to priests about sins.)

I used to just say I used bad language and that I hit someone! (Actually did neither, but wanted to ensure the guy had something to work with and appear more badass).

purplecow1977

Harr I am unable to reply directly to you as am using the app so I hope you see this.

None of the teachers, to my knowledge, spend 2.5hours per week on religion. There simply isn't the time. It is a very packed curriculum and I never seem to have enough time, even without the religion!

Once a year we are visited by a religion advisor. They're not really an inspector and are generally very nice. I've told a nun before I didn't think much of the Alive o programme and now it's being changed! Finally! They ask children a couple of questions, stories etc but they don't visit for more than ten minutes or so. I

Lazy gal I think it was you who had an issue with children saying prayers etc. I don't see how it's any different to learning off poems or gaeilge paragraphs!!!!

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Lazy gal I think it was you who had an issue with children saying prayers etc. I don't see how it's any different to learning off poems or gaeilge paragraphs!!!!

It is completely different. I am appalled, but not one bit surprised, that you'd say something like that though.

The fact that you, as a teacher who implements the Catholic indoctrination programme in primary school, can't see a difference between children reciting prayers to a deity and children learning a poem speaks volumes about how ingrained indoctrination is in the Irish eduction system.

SpaceTime

zeffabelli wrote: »

Ha ha.

I remember before the birds and the bees talk about the mysterious pregnancy and at 7 worried how much trouble Id get in.

However copped very early that confession was a way for the priest to know all the local gossip do I told a pack of lies in confession, it was fun.

Teaching 7 year olds they were born bad is abusive imo.

I was very matter of fact at about age 10 and we'd a religion teacher (middle aged woman) who brought up the immaculate conception.
Being a science geek and knowing how basic biology worked I told her that wasn't possible and asked if maybe Mary just got pregnant by someone else and then made it all up.

She started screaming at me and thew me out (physically by the scruff of neck nearly choking me) and called my parents. She wanted me to go see a psychologist about my disruptive behaviour etc etc etc

They took me out of the school.

Tea 1000

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

I remember being in high infants and a teacher, Mrs Daly, slapped me across my face because I wasn't holding my hands together correctly while praying.
I wasn't misbehaving.
Religious indoctrination is fabulous

That was an idiot teacher. I'll bet she slapped many other kids for many other reasons in other subjects too, but that argument won't work with the religion is to blame theme, so I guess no point in blaming the teaching skills!

ash23

realdanbreen wrote: »

I am around a while and I have never ever heard of anything like that. Who told you that you would go to hell?

Second class teacher. She was a religious zealous nut to be honest. Other teachers were fine for the most part but she took religion to a different level altogether. There was also a nun who did remedial teaching and covered when other teachers were out. She reduced my sister to tears because they were making Christmas cards and sister had written "To Mammy". Nun told her to put "and Daddy" and sister said no because daddy didn't live with us and we wouldn't see him soon etc etc. Nun insisted and went on a rant about how our parents were still married in the eyes of God etc. Sis went home out of her mind with torment over the fecking card.

My mother went down to the school and tore the nun a new one. And rightfully so. But the hell thing was just kind of accepted by all the parents

zeffabelli

SpaceTime wrote: »

I was very matter of fact at about age 10 and we'd a religion teacher (middle aged woman) who brought up the immaculate conception.
Being a science geek and knowing how basic biology worked I told her that wasn't possible and asked if maybe Mary just got pregnant by someone else and then made it all up.

She started screaming at me and thew me out (physically by the scruff of neck nearly choking me) and called my parents. She wanted me to go see a psychologist about my disruptive behaviour etc etc etc

They took me out of the school.

Oh wow. That's nuts.

Truth is back then they didn't understand biology either and there were lots of Virgin births. They thought it was like the flowers, seed just floated around and landed.

The religion is sex obsessed when you think about it.

PearlJ

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I don't see how it's any different to learning off poems or gaeilge paragraphs!!!!

I really hope you're not a teacher in my children's school. What an idiotic comment.

NS77

realdanbreen wrote: »

But there isn't much to debate is there?
You say you are a non believer, you are sending your child to a catholic school and you seem surprised that the child will have a religios class where catholicism will be taught? If that bothers you then just explain your own beliefs to the child, its really simple, its what parents do.

They're not Catholic schools. They're State schools with a Catholic ethos. A remnant of a time when things were different in this country and Church and State were intertwined. But, times have moved on and every child has a right to a State-provided education.

There is simply no choice for many non-Catholic / non-religious parents, but to send their children to the local Catholic ethos State school. That's assuming the school accepts them.

State services should be there for all and every child should be educated alongside their friends and neighbours in an atmosphere of tolerance, acceptance and love. The ONLY sane, cost-effective way to achieve this is to remove religious indoctrination from the school system.

Neyite

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Lazy gal I think it was you who had an issue with children saying prayers etc. I don't see how it's any different to learning off poems or gaeilge paragraphs!!!!

I understand that you as a teacher have to teach religion, even in a minimal way, and if someone is indifferent to that religion, then what you say above would be true - that it seems harmless.

But to others, its not. Some believe that some RCC teachings are harmful. I see the RCC teachings as crazy as the likes of Scientology or Davidian Seventh Day Adventists- I don't want my child exposed to Scientology teachings even in the most benign of sing-songy rhymes and bedtime prayers either. But because RCC is the predominant religion in the country I'm supposed to just suck it up? No thanks all the same.

SpaceTime

I do remember though in Jnr or Snr Infants we had to sing this prayer before meals that went something like:

"Bless the hands that made the food"

I used to try to draw robot hands making food, which my teacher used to be quite confused by!

For some reason brainwashing attempts on me always ended up with me adding robots and wrecking a good religious story.

I got in trouble for adding dinosaurs to the crib too.

mahoganygas

Tea 1000 wrote: »

That was an idiot teacher. I'll bet she slapped many other kids for many other reasons in other subjects too, but that argument won't work with the religion is to blame theme, so I guess no point in blaming the teaching skills!

Of course religion is to blame. These teaching 'skills' were fostered in many RCC schools around the country for decades. Blind eyes were turned to savage beatings and rape at the hands of priests and nuns who taught in our schools.

I'm shocked at how people still happily accept the catholic church wielding such control over our schools. Look at their track record. Look at the denial and cover ups.

Why should local priests be on school boards of management? What qualifies them to decide how a child should be educated?

SpaceTime

Have a read of the Rules for National Schools if you get a few minutes minutes!

Honestly, they're the most anachronistic bunch of nonsense you've ever seen and look like something from the 19th century!

They still mention Laundry as an optional subject for girls too!

It's shocking given the horrific abuse and denial of educational opportunity that "subject" represents they the Dept of Education hasn't bothered to update the document since 1965.

SpaceTime

Just to give you a sense of what you're dealing with this is from the current Department of Education Rules for national schools and applies to ALL Irish schools, even Educate Together!

Rule 68

“Of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important, as its subject-matter, God’s honour and service, includes the proper use of all man’s faculties, and affords the most powerful inducements to their proper use. Religious Instruction is, therefore, a fundamental part of the school course, and a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school.

The teacher should constantly inculcate the practice of charity, justice, truth, purity, patience, temperance, obedience to lawful authority, and all the other moral virtues. In this way he will fulfil the primary duty of an educator, the moulding to perfect form of his pupils’ character, habituating them to observe, in their relations with God and with their neighbour, the laws which God, both directly through the dictates of natural reason and through Revelation, and indirectly through the ordinance of lawful authority, imposes on mankind.”

Neyite

Laundry for girls? You are not serious

ShaShaBear

My mother and several other family members almost had a fit when we said we wouldn't be getting our children baptized and my mother's main concern was that the child(ren) would never be able to go to school.
Luckily there is a new school in my area (gaelscoil) that has said that her religion, or lack thereof, is of no consequence and absolutely none of their business. They have assured me that there will be teachings into the popular religions and that anything "Catholic-based" will be entirely on what such people "believe" and certainly not what is fact. I've told them I would very much like her to learn about what is believed and not just for one religion, but she will not be receiving any sacraments until I am confident that she is choosing to because she has spiritual belief. They were totally fine with that.

My other option would be to have my partner remain out of work or I'd have to learn how to drive and get a second car to do a twice daily round trip from Monaghan to Kildare I believe.

lazygal

Neyite wrote: »

Laundry for girls? You are not serious

How else would the girls know how to atone for their sins if they fall from grace and need the Catholic church to 'help' them?

SpaceTime

Neyite wrote: »

Laundry for girls? You are not serious

I'll link the document! You honestly couldn't make it up. Crazy stuff.

Neyite

lazygal wrote: »

How else would the girls know how to atone for their sins if they fall from grace and need the Catholic church to 'help' them?

True.

LegacyUser

Neyite wrote: »

But to others, its not. Some believe that some RCC teachings are harmful. I see the RCC teachings as crazy as the likes of Scientology or Davidian Seventh Day Adventists- I don't want my child exposed to Scientology teachings even in the most benign of sing-songy rhymes and bedtime prayers either. But because RCC is the predominant religion in the country I'm supposed to just suck it up? No thanks all the same.

I have to say I don't put Scientology in the same class as the RCC at all. One is a cult that pretty much forces you to cut off all contact with your family, friends etc and give all your money to them.

the other, IMO, is a pretty harmless opt-in or opt-out at your leisure type of religion.

I and pretty much all my friends and family from Ireland were brought up as Catholics, went to mass every Sunday etc etc. but that's really as far as it went.

As I got older and started to think for myself then I made my own choices. I'm sure the same can be said for 99% of people who were brought up Catholic in Ireland.

I personally don't see a problem with a child in a catholic school being taught religion in class. I was and I like to think I'm fairly normal. My kids are being taught it but really take it with a pinch of salt.

Neyite

Parrrrrent wrote: »

I have to say I don't put Scientology in the same class as the RCC at all. One is a cult that pretty much forces you to cut off all contact with your family, friends etc and give all your money to them.

the other, IMO, is a pretty harmless opt-in or opt-out at your leisure type of religion.

I and pretty much all my friends and family from Ireland were brought up as Catholics, went to mass every Sunday etc etc. but that's really as far as it went.

As I got older and started to think for myself then I made my own choices. I'm sure the same can be said for 99% of people who were brought up Catholic in Ireland.

I personally don't see a problem with a child in a catholic school being taught religion in class. I was and I like to think I'm fairly normal. My kids are being taught it but really take it with a pinch of salt.

That's your opinion. To me they are all cults who are happy to influence your thinking and take your money.

And you are wrong about RCC not cutting you off - in very recent history if you were excommunicated based on marrying another Christian, got pregnant out of wedlock, or lived in sin, your family were strongly encouraged to disown you and cast you out.

Orion

ash23 wrote: »

I was told if we didn't go to mass every Sunday in May we would definitely go to hell because it was the month of Mary etc etc.

May is actually named after Maia - the Roman Goddess of the Spring. But facts are irrelvant to the catholic church.

lazygal

Parrrrrent wrote: »

I have to say I don't put Scientology in the same class as the RCC at all. One is a cult that pretty much forces you to cut off all contact with your family, friends etc and give all your money to them.

the other, IMO, is a pretty harmless opt-in or opt-out at your leisure type of religion.

I and pretty much all my friends and family from Ireland were brought up as Catholics, went to mass every Sunday etc etc. but that's really as far as it went.

As I got older and started to think for myself then I made my own choices. I'm sure the same can be said for 99% of people who were brought up Catholic in Ireland.

I personally don't see a problem with a child in a catholic school being taught religion in class. I was and I like to think I'm fairly normal. My kids are being taught it but really take it with a pinch of salt.

The only reason so many people think the RCC is not a cult is because its done a great job of making out like its a normal and natural part of being Irish and part of the education system here. If it had never existed, and tomorrow a Jewish man from the Middle East who claimed to be the son of God and the product of a virgin birth and would die for our sins arrived in Ireland with his band of brothers and wanted to take over the education system here, I doubt the Dept of Education would hand over 90% or more of the schools to him.

Orion

Neyite wrote: »

Laundry for girls? You are not serious

I support this


Runs for cover

Orion

Parrrrrent wrote: »

I have to say I don't put Scientology in the same class as the RCC at all. One is a cult that pretty much forces you to cut off all contact with your family, friends etc and give all your money to them.

Christianity was denounced as a cult at the start. Bring to mind the joke - What's the difference between a cult and a religion? 2000 years.

Seriously though - all churches look for money. Every quarter I get an envelope in the door from the local RC church looking for parish dues. In Germany a percentage of your pay goes to whatever church you are registered with. And what about nuns and monks who live in closed communities - not allowed to see anyone from outside the community. It's just a matter of scale.

zeffabelli

lazygal wrote: »

How else would the girls know how to atone for their sins if they fall from grace and need the Catholic church to 'help' them?

How else would they get quality slave labour?

LegacyUser

Neyite wrote: »

That's your opinion. To me they are all cults who are happy to influence your thinking and take your money.

And you are wrong about RCC not cutting you off - in very recent history if you were excommunicated based on marrying another Christian, got pregnant out of wedlock, or lived in sin, your family were strongly encouraged to disown you and cast you out.

How recent? Not in my lifetime. Yes those times were terrible, horrible Eric and the church has done some truly awful things but no more than the state has IMO.

Anyway my point is that the vast majority of people when they come of age will think for themselves and can leave the church of their own free will it like me, just not participate in anything. It's not compulsory for an adult like myself and it doesn't affect my life one bit.

Baggy Trousers

The only solution here is to remove religion from education.
It will happen, unfortunately it will take some time.