Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

jaymla627

atlantic mist wrote: »

my opinion on survey is 1. they want a justification for additional processing (cheesee factory) and belview is only at full tilt so we dont for next 5 years 2.lobby element of gii know environmental policies on there way for eu and they need to see if our farmers can afford implication while being paid a lowest eu price 3. who to put in the bold boy category (they wouldnt get much allocation to next few fixed price scheme)

milk manager gets hear everything i say on here, no good writing a letter when you can do it face to face, and to be fair he agrees with a lot but i dont pay his wage. far from anonymous a lot are publishing milk price and % pr and butterfat each month, the lads in gii know exactly who we are:)

Did you get one or will you be getting to read them? mines the one with loads of extra boxes:)

Next year will tell a lot regarding Ireland getting it's derogation renewed, if europe deny it, it will lead highly stocked guys either having to sell their entitlements and farm without the dole payment every October our pay through the nose for rented ground all this will add significant costs per litre....
It's a pretty pointless excercise the amount of details they are looking for at the minute cause if the above comes to pass it changes everything regarding expansion and even the need for additional capacity

Timmaay

jaymla627 wrote: »

Next year will tell a lot regarding Ireland getting it's derogation renewed, if europe deny it, it will lead highly stocked guys either having to sell their entitlements and farm without the dole payment every October our pay through the nose for rented ground all this will add significant costs per litre....
It's a pretty pointless excercise the amount of details they are looking for at the minute cause if the above comes to pass it changes everything regarding expansion and even the need for additional capacity

Dole payment worth about 2c/l here moving forward, I'm pushing close to the 250kg nitrates limit as is (over 1/2 winter fodder bought in), no land rented, and I've no real intention of renting any bar I can walk the cows to it. So if derogation goes I'm looking at your 1st option.

rangler1

jaymla627 wrote: »

Next year will tell a lot regarding Ireland getting it's derogation renewed, if europe deny it, it will lead highly stocked guys either having to sell their entitlements and farm without the dole payment every October our pay through the nose for rented ground all this will add significant costs per litre....
It's a pretty pointless excercise the amount of details they are looking for at the minute cause if the above comes to pass it changes everything regarding expansion and even the need for additional capacity

Nitrates directive is legislation now i think....if it is, the directive will apply whether you take the bps or not.

jaymla627

rangler1 wrote: »

Nitrates directive is legislation now i think....if it is, the directive will apply whether you take the bps or not.

Over 350kgs n/ha here the past 4 years and all I have received is letters stating how my non-existent bps is being cut, maybe I'm just getting lucky re- no inspections, but if I get a council inspection and have all required slurry storage not spreading slurry in closed periods and they can't prove I am causing any pollution to waterways what penalty can I be hit with

Keepgrowing

Timmaay wrote: »

Dole payment worth about 2c/l here moving forward, I'm pushing close to the 250kg nitrates limit as is (over 1/2 winter fodder bought in), no land rented, and I've no real intention of renting any bar I can walk the cows to it. So if derogation goes I'm looking at your 1st option.

There's a lot to play for re derogation. It's up for reapplication next year. The country is no where close to breaching its limits. Ag is a big earner here and isn't any threat from a pollution stand point.

You'll get the likes of An Taisce, EPA and the FINDO making noise and trying to make headlines. The reality is Local Authorities are more polluting than Ag ever was.

It's a great headline that Ag is the greatest polluter and it is but it must be taken in the context that we don't have any heavy industry ala Northern Europe.

If derro is lost, sr will have to reduce on some farms but not on most. Options are contract rearing, flying herd, land rental, manure export or de stocking. So lots of options.

Its not something I'd be overly concerned about and I hope all stake holders get behind this reapplication. I feel if they need as much info as possible to build their case

Keepgrowing

jaymla627 wrote: »

Over 350kgs n/ha here the past 4 years and all I have received is letters stating how my non-existent bps is being cut, maybe I'm just getting lucky re- no inspections, but if I get a council inspection and have all required slurry storage not spreading slurry in closed periods and they can't prove I am causing any pollution to waterways what penalty can I be hit with

They don't need to prove you're causing pollution rather you will have to prove that you aren't. Been there and it's a costly exercise.

They don't worry about good farming practices but will insist on certification being supplied by you, engineers with PE willing to do such certification are scarce and very expensive. Just a heads up.

rangler1

jaymla627 wrote: »

Over 350kgs n/ha here the past 4 years and all I have received is letters stating how my non-existent bps is being cut, maybe I'm just getting lucky re- no inspections, but if I get a council inspection and have all required slurry storage not spreading slurry in closed periods and they can't prove I am causing any pollution to waterways what penalty can I be hit with

They know you're breaking the law, no different than spreading slurry in the closed period....plenty doing that this year,
My jeep isn't taxed at the moment but the car and the tractor is, does that mean i can't be summonsed.
You're overstocking, you're breaking the law. I'm just stating a fact, lack of BPS doesn't leave you above the law
just a heads up for you, lots thinks there's no ruleS when you're not gettin BPS

jaymla627

Keepgrowing wrote: »

They don't need to prove you're causing pollution rather you will have to prove that you aren't. Been there and it's a costly exercise.

They don't worry about good farming practices but will insist on certification being supplied by you, engineers with PE willing to do such certification are scarce and very expensive. Just a heads up.

Just wondering do they have the ability to shut down a farm for breaching Nitrates regulations where they can't prove your polluting and you have no bps for them to go after....
Will be a non-issue next year here as more land will be coming up to get us under 250kgs/ha

Keepgrowing

Signpost wrote: »

Not a Glanbia supplier, I'm with one of those poor paying crowds so perhaps I shouldnt be commenting but - why would you want to tell your supplier what your ambitions are? Is this not removing your competitive advantage? Just relay it into a different industry, why would you want to give away your competitive advantage of letting your suppliers know exactly how much you can produce, how much you can grow, what machinery / tools you can or plan to use to do this etc.

If they know exactly how much milk they will get from everyone doesn't that just mean they can give a lower price? Fair enough 'A' might stop producing because of the low price but 'B' will be doubling production so we don't need to pay as competitive a price as he will be heavily committed and won't be able to afford to stop producing, no matter how low a price we pay.

Why do Glanbia not give out a census report with the document to say over the next 5 years we want to x,y,z and to do this we envisage paying an average milx price of .cc per litre? Its all one way traffic you tell us everything but we won't tell you anything until 6 weeks after you have made all the inputs to supply us with milk? End of the day my business is to produce milk, there business is to buy & process it, why do they need to know my long term ambitions if they are not in any way contributing to this plan? Maybe the less they know the more they will realise how much they take the dairy farmer for granted?

Again, not my problem I know but I would have the same argument with Kerry or any other processor.

I don't disagree with most of your post but you lost me on the competition bit.

As of the last survey done more capacity is still required. This survey will indicate whether it's still required or more is required. The one thing for sure is the farmer will pay for it so I for one would like to know where we stand.

Big decisions need to be made and some very hard calls. Do the coop (farmers) continue to invest based on old data? Do we continue to invest in plant to convert extra supply into bargain basement powder products?

What's really required is a flattening of the supply curve but there aren't any products bar Bailys that can take any volume, pay a premium and that's fully supplied ATM.

Considering the year that's passed I think it's a great time to get a true picture of where people can go.

You mentioned "ambition", I think the questions are posed in such a way as to seperate ambition from what actually can be achieved. Some peoples aptitude doesn't match their ambition.

What GII need to do first and foremost is get milk to 30c/l without coop support if it has any hope of rebuilding a relationship with many of its suppliers. I see Lakeland rose milk 1c, that's pathetic considering where the market is. Not having a go at Lakeland as they paid well during the year but this could be a symptom of chickens coming home to roost. I hope it's not replicated with other processors.

GII should be in a position to announce a significant price rise this month, here's hoping anyway.

rangler1

jaymla627 wrote: »

Just wondering do they have the ability to shut down a farm for breaching Nitrates regulations where they can't prove your polluting and you have no bps for them to go after....
Will be a non-issue next year here as more land will be coming up to get us under 250kgs/ha

i'm sure they can't, but this is what's threatened for other breaches.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/farmers-found-to-breach-slurry-spreading-deadline-could-face-a-hefty-fine/

Signpost

jaymla627 wrote: »

Just wondering do they have the ability to shut down a farm for breaching Nitrates regulations where they can't prove your polluting and you have no bps for them to go after....

From the citizens info website:
The right to earn a livelihood
As a citizen, you have a right to work and to earn a living, whether you are male or female.

The State is under a duty to protect your right to work and earn a livelihood from unjust attack.

Would prob be one of those things that would take years to argue out in a court as to whether common good entailed vs needing a high stocking rate to earn a living in your circumstance. Would it work - probably need to ask someone on a legal forum but I couldn't see how they could close you down without it being a legal minefield.

Keepgrowing

jaymla627 wrote: »

Just wondering do they have the ability to shut down a farm for breaching Nitrates regulations where they can't prove your polluting and you have no bps for them to go after....
Will be a non-issue next year here as more land will be coming up to get us under 250kgs/ha

I don't know that, I'd imagine not.
You see they won't be the authority dealing with this issue, it would be the courts and you know nothing is certain there. In my case the burden of proof was laid fairly and squarely at my door. I didn't ignore it as court is a complete lottery and and expensive venue for a few days

rangler1

Between drive by and visits, our county council does between 500 and 1000 inspection/year, just in case you think they don't see you

whelan2

rangler1 wrote: »

Between drive by and visits, our county council does between 500 and 1000 inspection/year, just in case you think they don't see you

Some county councils seem to alot more visible than others. We get a visit every year during the closed period.

Fixture

whelan2 wrote: »

Some county councils seem to alot more visible than others. We get a visit every year during the closed period.

EPA and County Councils doing a lot of analysis of rivers behind the scenes. Only a matter of time before they turn up the heat. EU directive requires all our watercourses to return to good status and unfortunately that's not happening. I agree we're in good shape relative to EU nations with heavy industry but some of the complacency in posts here is a big part of our problem.

Huge number of farmers not soil testing which is massive problem - putting out costly P & K in wrong fields. Putting out N when it's lime their soil needs. There are still crappy farmyards leaking effluent into watercourses and for all our sakes I would like to see these guys targeted asap.

Timmaay

Keepgrowing wrote: »

There's a lot to play for re derogation. It's up for reapplication next year. The country is no where close to breaching its limits. Ag is a big earner here and isn't any threat from a pollution stand point.

You'll get the likes of An Taisce, EPA and the FINDO making noise and trying to make headlines. The reality is Local Authorities are more polluting than Ag ever was.

It's a great headline that Ag is the greatest polluter and it is but it must be taken in the context that we don't have any heavy industry ala Northern Europe.

If derro is lost, sr will have to reduce on some farms but not on most. Options are contract rearing, flying herd, land rental, manure export or de stocking. So lots of options.

Its not something I'd be overly concerned about and I hope all stake holders get behind this reapplication. I feel if they need as much info as possible to build their case

Agreed here, on dairying in Ireland, every litre of milk we put out to the world market potentially displaces a litre of milk elsewhere, and I'd bet it's a hell of alot more environmentally efficient to produce the litre if milk here off grass, with zero irrigation etc, dry it and ship it to China/Middle East etc than it is for them to setup an industrial factory farm and ship in all their alfalfa etc from America alongside irrigation, and pumping water from a km deep maybe 200km away.

Moving forward more lower protein higher yielding grasses will hopefully help reduce grass based milk "emissions" /energy use, there is plenty research on cow methane emissions, last one I heard was the inclusion of seaweed in the diet could hopefully hugely reduce the methane production in the stomach. The main negative point I'll make is I wouldnt be surprised if some sort of low emissions lab milk totally replaced the need for cows milk within 20 yrs or so ha, that would only concern me if I'm doing the likes of buying land based on its dairying return for a 30yr mortgage etc ha.

Keepgrowing

Fixture wrote: »

EPA and County Councils doing a lot of analysis of rivers behind the scenes. Only a matter of time before they turn up the heat. EU directive requires all our watercourses to return to good status and unfortunately that's not happening. I agree we're in good shape relative to EU nations with heavy industry but some of the complacency in posts here is a big part of our problem.

Huge number of farmers not soil testing which is massive problem - putting out costly P & K in wrong fields. Putting out N when it's lime their soil needs. There are still crappy farmyards leaking effluent into watercourses and for all our sakes I would like to see these guys targeted asap.

Correct, we've a water course 100 m from parlour and 30' lower than collecting yard. It's tested once a month.

The nitrate directive and the waste management schemes have been a huge success and I'd say the number of farmyards with runoff are low, still there but low.

The facts are that water courses are in worse condition than in 2000 however the criteria applied in 2000 no longer applies. I'd guess that if the same criteria was applied they'd be in much better condition, I've no science to back this

You make a great point on N,P&k. Every farm should soil sample every year and apply fert correctly. Imagine the uproar

Keepgrowing

Timmaay wrote: »

Agreed here, on dairying in Ireland, every litre of milk we put out to the world market potentially displaces a litre of milk elsewhere, and I'd bet it's a hell of alot more environmentally efficient to produce the litre if milk here off grass, with zero irrigation etc, dry it and ship it to China/Middle East etc than it is for them to setup an industrial factory farm and ship in all their alfalfa etc from America alongside irrigation, and pumping water from a km deep maybe 200km away.

Moving forward more lower protein higher yielding grasses will hopefully help reduce grass based milk "emissions" /energy use, there is plenty research on cow methane emissions, last one I heard was the inclusion of seaweed in the diet could hopefully hugely reduce the methane production in the stomach. The main negative point I'll make is I wouldnt be surprised if some sort of low emissions lab milk totally replaced the need for cows milk within 20 yrs or so ha, that would only concern me if I'm doing the likes of buying land based on its dairying return for a 30yr mortgage etc ha.

Tim, I've bought land and built numbers and at no time in the analysis of any investment did I factor "lab produced milk". With the changes that happen so quickly perhaps I should've

Timmaay

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Tim, I've bought land and built numbers and at no time in the analysis of any investment did I factor "lab produced milk". With the changes that happen so quickly perhaps I should've

Ha don't worry that's just me doing out my disaster planning! Stranger things have happened tho.

Keepgrowing

Water John wrote: »

Remember, unneeded capital spend comes out of your milk cheque, nowhere else. Be a while before they fill Bellview.

All the more reason to fill survey properly. Bellview at full capacity this summer, closing now till spring

Water John

The 8 River Basin strategies are what will be the long term mover on preventing pollution.

My info, a few years ago now, was that the EU would be always though on Ireland re water pollution, because at the time we had no water charges.
It will be denied, but the two are politically interlinked.

Well Teagasc are saying one thing, compact calving, the milk processor wants different, a more plateaux type production. They are quite happy with farmers having late calvers.

freedominacup

Keepgrowing wrote: »

All the more reason to fill survey properly. Bellview at full capacity this summer, closing now till spring

Closing for a month afaik then ballyraggett closing for substantial overhaul to reopen in spring.

farmertipp

farmerjj wrote: »

Actually I,m looking for the hand yard scrapper on wheels, anyone know who sells a good quality one? ( looked at Dairygold,s one and seems v light)

Bags of a thing

farmertipp

farmerjj wrote: »

Actually I,m looking for the hand yard scrapper on wheels, anyone know who sells a good quality one? ( looked at Dairygold,s one and seems v light)

Bags of a thing

Keepgrowing

freedominacup wrote: »

Closing for a month afaik then ballyraggett closing for substantial overhaul to reopen in spring.

Bally closes every year for Dec. Any major phuck ups in Bell this summer?

GrasstoMilk

Fixture wrote: »

EPA and County Councils doing a lot of analysis of rivers behind the scenes. Only a matter of time before they turn up the heat. EU directive requires all our watercourses to return to good status and unfortunately that's not happening. I agree we're in good shape relative to EU nations with heavy industry but some of the complacency in posts here is a big part of our problem.

Huge number of farmers not soil testing which is massive problem - putting out costly P & K in wrong fields. Putting out N when it's lime their soil needs. There are still crappy farmyards leaking effluent into watercourses and for all our sakes I would like to see these guys targeted asap.

Just to add to this, the current limits for p and are way way to low. It needs a complete over haul. Any farmer stocked high on a set area 3+ or taking lot of silage off a block will tell you you need to spread more than there currrently allowed. We're on our 13th year this block now and have used our limit of 27kgs p/ ha for the last 12 seasons and we've only brought it up to bare index 2 from no P in the soil.
If my farm can grow 14T at that low of and index what could it oroduce if I was let spread more.
And that goes for every farm in the country

Buford T. Justice XIX

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Just to add to this, the current limits for p and are way way to low. It needs a complete over haul. Any farmer stocked high on a set area 3+ or taking lot of silage off a block will tell you you need to spread more than there currrently allowed. We're on our 13th year this block now and have used our limit of 27kgs p/ ha for the last 12 seasons and we've only brought it up to bare index 2 from no P in the soil.
If my farm can grow 14T at that low of and index what could it oroduce if I was let spread more.
And that goes for every farm in the country

Welcome to the world of the replacement of milk quota by P quota.

Keepgrowing

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Just to add to this, the current limits for p and are way way to low. It needs a complete over haul. Any farmer stocked high on a set area 3+ or taking lot of silage off a block will tell you you need to spread more than there currrently allowed. We're on our 13th year this block now and have used our limit of 27kgs p/ ha for the last 12 seasons and we've only brought it up to bare index 2 from no P in the soil.
If my farm can grow 14T at that low of and index what could it oroduce if I was let spread more.
And that goes for every farm in the country

What's your ph?

yosemitesam1

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Just to add to this, the current limits for p and are way way to low. It needs a complete over haul. Any farmer stocked high on a set area 3+ or taking lot of silage off a block will tell you you need to spread more than there currrently allowed.

How many litres/ha are these lads putting out and what is there replacement+stocking rate?

kowtow

atlantic mist wrote:

mines the one with loads of extra boxes

That's another keyboard covered in tea.