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Cars to be banned from key Dublin City Centre streets; priority to walking, buses etc

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    #92
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I'm surprised at some of the comments here. Some posters seem to think that everyone in suburban dublin goes into D2 to buy groceries. They don't they go into town to buy items of clothing or for coffee/beer/dinner. There aren't many people hauling sofas and TVs down Grafton St. Groceries are bought locally and bulky items are bought in subrubia or delivered to your door.


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    #93
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Bambi wrote: »
    On the whole, irish cyclists are not capable of sharing space with pedestrians, by definition a plaza or pedestrian zone needs to exclude cyclists

    I think that 100% pedestrianisation has to be implemented with caution. It's very tempting to go the whole hog, as it were, but I do wonder about the efficacy of such 100% pedestrian streets. I do not advocate "shared space" at all. I would be entirely opposed to it. "Cycle street" is a concept whereby there is specific delineation between ped's and cyclists. Sometimes delivery vehicles or local access for cars can be retained. (Without through-access so that it doesn't become a rat-run.)


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    #94
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Bambi wrote: »
    On the whole, irish cyclists are not capable of sharing space with pedestrians, by definition a plaza or pedestrian zone needs to exclude cyclists

    What definition?

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plaza
    Pedestrian zones have a great variety of attitudes or rules towards human-powered vehicles such as bicycles, inline skates, skateboards and kick scooters. Some have a total ban on anything with wheels, others ban certain categories, others segregate the human-powered wheels from foot traffic, and others still have no rules at all. Many of Middle Eastern casbas have no wheeled traffic, but use donkey-driven or hand-driven carts for freight transport.


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    #95
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I'm surprised at some of the comments here. Some posters seem to think that everyone in suburban dublin goes into D2 to buy groceries. They don't they go into town to buy items of clothing or for coffee/beer/dinner. There aren't many people hauling sofas and TVs down Grafton St. Groceries are bought locally and bulky items are bought in subrubia or delivered to your door.

    Exactly. Especially wrt to bulky goods (white goods, furniture etc). These uses cannot afford city centre rents. There are a few exceptions like Brown Thomas or Arnotts. But even then those city-centre bulky goods shops are a fraction of the bulky-goods market. There is a specific zoning type called "Retail Warehousing" where these types of shops are encouraged. The Park in Carrickmines is an example. Nutgrove is zoned for Retail Warehousing, whereas Stillorgan and Dundrum (for example) are not. There is a push by the councils to have retail warehousing in those locations most accessible by road so that people can transport their bulky goods home with them should need be. The Greater Dublin Area has its own retail strategy to deal with this. Bulky good retailing in the city centre is not a part of this strategy. What bulky goods retailing there is in situ is just legacy stuff.


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    #96
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    beauf wrote: »
    What definition?

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plaza

    The irish definition that has to address the inveterate gobdaw that is the average irish cyclist :)


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    #97
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I'm surprised at some of the comments here. Some posters seem to think that everyone in suburban dublin goes into D2 to buy groceries. They don't they go into town to buy items of clothing or for coffee/beer/dinner. There aren't many people hauling sofas and TVs down Grafton St. Groceries are bought locally and bulky items are bought in subrubia or delivered to your door.

    I buy an absolute shedload of groceries once a week in d1 and bus it back out to the suburbs, which is often a nightmare (oh hai dublin bus, oh hai regular rerouting of city centre bus services on a weekend)


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    #98
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    http://dublinbikeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/WeatherandCyclinginDublin.pdf&ved=0CCEQFjACahUKEwjKiLfi64fGAhUlgdsKHT9EAEM&usg=AFQjCNHjZlTqMiAdYxvQPXT_P8V25zpU1A&sig2=HKPYX6mmYTdAwEAJmWu19Q

    Its a report on perceptions of weather and cycling vs reality in Dublin.

    Its interesting because over 60% of people said they reckoned if they cycled they would get rained on between 30% and 50% of the time, the report says the reality it is less than 5%


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    #99
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Bambi wrote: »
    I buy an absolute shedload of groceries once a week in d1 and bus it back out to the suburbs, which is often a nightmare (oh hai dublin bus, oh hai regular rerouting of city centre bus services on a weekend)

    Do you buy them on the way home from work?


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    #100
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Bambi wrote: »
    The irish definition that has to address the inveterate gobdaw that is the average irish cyclist :)

    An Irish definition would to ignore all the rules at every opportunity for as long as you get away with it.

    The point really is that Pedestrian Zones often aren't limited to just Pedestrian Zones. Even when they are its often only between certain hours. So its its likey they would include provision for cyclists, and even vehicles at certain times.


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    #101
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Bambi wrote: »
    I buy an absolute shedload of groceries once a week in d1 and bus it back out to the suburbs, which is often a nightmare (oh hai dublin bus, oh hai regular rerouting of city centre bus services on a weekend)

    Aren't any re-routings usually due to protest marches that basically bring the city centre to a standstill?

    Hardly DB's fault surely?


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    #102
    superelliptic
    Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭superelliptic


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Obviously I'm exaggerating. But you must admit cycling in Dublin is quite the challenge. Overall the provision of cycle lanes is poor and they're generally used as parking/loading areas anyway.

    I agree that the infrastructure is very poor, and that does need to be improved if we are to get the less brave cyclists out on their bikes around town more, but from personal experience I can say for sure that a lot of the 'safety concerns' are exaggerated. I've been cycling about 30km each day from D5 to D16 and back for the past 2 years and the only time I've seen other cyclists endangered is when they do mad stuff like running red lights, etc.


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    #103
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    RTE reporting that to facilitate LUAS BXD track laying, that the College Green bus gate will have extended operating hours this autumn. It will be operating from 07:00 through to 19:00 each day from the end of August to the end of November.

    Also the article highlights some additional permanent changes to traffic arrangements that will take place at some stage in the future as a result of the LUAS BXD being introduced:

    - No right turn from Dawson Street to Nassau Street
    - No right turn from Westmoreland Street to D'Olier Street
    - No right turn from O'Connell Bridge to Eden Quay
    - No right turn from O'Connell Street to Cathal Brugha Street.

    So notwithstanding the plans published yesterday, there are going to be some significant changes to traffic routings simply as a result of LUAS being introduced.

    It also means that the 14, 15, 27 and 142 will no longer serve their busiest northbound stops (Eden Quay) and will have to stop elsewhere and that Swords Express will have to probably relocate their city terminus.

    The full article is here:
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0611/707...lin-transport/


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    #104
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    From a car perspective thats good, should serve to get more cars out of the College Green/Westmoreland/etc region which will be a step towards full pedestrianization.

    Now, what that will do to the North Quays and Christchurch, god only knows. Hopefully Cross City will commute the people that would be having to make these maneuvers, and more!


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    #105
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    From a car perspective thats good, should serve to get more cars out of the College Green/Westmoreland/etc region which will be a step towards full pedestrianization.

    Now, what that will do to the North Quays and Christchurch, god only knows. Hopefully Cross City will commute the people that would be having to make these maneuvers, and more!



    I suspect that these changes will mean different route patterns developing, which may make the plans announced yesterday easier to deliver.


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    #106
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    lxflyer wrote: »

    It also means that the 14, 15, 27 and 142 will no longer serve their busiest northbound stops (Eden Quay) and will have to stop elsewhere and that Swords Express will have to probably relocate their city terminus.[/url]

    This is interesting as I got the impression that the re-routing pushed onto the 14 was going to become permanent. Possibly if they re-route it back towards the east, instead of Dawson Street it may come down Merrion Square/Lincoln Place instead and cross at, is it Matt Talbot Bridge instead?


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    #107
    David086
    Registered Users Posts: 616 ✭✭✭David086


    Fully pedestrianising Suffolk Street is a welcome development. Since there has been roadworks and the road being closed it's now much easier to walk down and with their being no traffic brightens the place up a bit. Previously it was a nightmare with the footpath being too narrow and it being difficult to maneuver with people queuing for buses.


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    #108
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    I smile, when I read this. Bxd was designed to facilitate existing flows, and now that its reality , DCC say they have to change everything to accommodate it

    how about," lets look around and find anything we can to justify this plan" type of argument

    I doubt much of this will be implemented.

    I agree abolishing the connolly luas stop is madness.


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    #109
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    RTE reporting that to facilitate LUAS BXD track laying, that the College Green bus gate will have extended operating hours this autumn. It will be operating from 07:00 through to 19:00 each day from the end of August to the end of November.

    Also the article highlights some additional permanent changes to traffic arrangements that will take place at some stage in the future as a result of the LUAS BXD being introduced:

    - No right turn from Dawson Street to Nassau Street
    - No right turn from Westmoreland Street to D'Olier Street
    - No right turn from O'Connell Bridge to Eden Quay
    - No right turn from O'Connell Street to Cathal Brugha Street.

    So notwithstanding the plans published yesterday, there are going to be some significant changes to traffic routings simply as a result of LUAS being introduced.

    It also means that the 14, 15, 27 and 142 will no longer serve their busiest northbound stops (Eden Quay) and will have to stop elsewhere and that Swords Express will have to probably relocate their city terminus.

    The full article is here:
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0611/707...lin-transport/


    No right turn from O'Connell Bridge to Eden Quay, and no left turn from Westmoreland St to Aston Quay would either funnel a lot of bus routes into O'Connell Street or remove them completely from Westmoreland St, College street area which begs the question WTF is the 24 hour bus gate for ?


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    #110
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cdebru wrote: »
    No right turn from O'Connell Bridge to Eden Quay, and no left turn from Westmoreland St to Aston Quay would either funnel a lot of bus routes into O'Connell Street or remove them completely from Westmoreland St, College street area which begs the question WTF is the 24 hour bus gate for ?

    No, not necessarily. I would imagine that all of the bus routes currently using the College Green bus gate will continue to do so.

    The Pearse St bus gate would see less usage with the N4 routes diverting via Tara St.

    Assuming current bus routings become permanent:

    The 14, 15, 27 and 142 can route via the existing route northbound as far as Westmoreland Street, then via Fleet Street, Townsend Street, Tara Street and Butt Bridge to rejoin the existing route at Beresford Place.

    The issue is where would their main city centre stop be? Beresford Place is the logical location, but Bus Eireann use that.

    Outbound N3 and N4 routes would operate via Pearse St, Tara St and Burgh Quay.

    I suspect that the right turn ban off Dawson St onto Nassau St will mean that northbound services from Leeson St will operate via Kildare St with a contra-flow bus lane north of Molesworth St.

    The only route that has a problem is the 83/a. That may have to do a loop via Fleet St, Townsend St, Tara St and Burgh Quay.

    Plenty of re-jigging ahead!


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    #111
    pclive
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭pclive


    Eventually private motorists will not be able to travel down the full length of Dawson Street, to turn right off Westmoreland Street onto D'Olier Street or turn right from O'Connell Bridge onto Eden Quay or turn right from O'Connell Street onto Cathal Brugha Street.

    The article says private motorists....maybe buses will be permitted to makes some or all of these turns??


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    #112
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    pclive wrote: »
    Eventually private motorists will not be able to travel down the full length of Dawson Street, to turn right off Westmoreland Street onto D'Olier Street or turn right from O'Connell Bridge onto Eden Quay or turn right from O'Connell Street onto Cathal Brugha Street.

    The article says private motorists....maybe buses will be permitted to makes some or all of these turns??

    Possibly! I hadn't twigged that!!


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    #113
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭thomasj


    pclive wrote: »
    Eventually private motorists will not be able to travel down the full length of Dawson Street, to turn right off Westmoreland Street onto D'Olier Street or turn right from O'Connell Bridge onto Eden Quay or turn right from O'Connell Street onto Cathal Brugha Street.

    The article says private motorists....maybe buses will be permitted to makes some or all of these turns??

    Good spot!


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    #114
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BoatMad wrote: »
    I smile, when I read this. Bxd was designed to facilitate existing flows, and now that its reality , DCC say they have to change everything to accommodate it

    how about," lets look around and find anything we can to justify this plan" type of argument

    I doubt much of this will be implemented.

    BXD was always going to have massive affects on the route from the current last green line stop to College Green to O'Connell Street to Broadstone.

    The published plans showed most of it. And it did not need a transport planning degree to figure out the rest. It was discussed on here in detail.

    The RPA were at first up very front about a 24 hour bus gate, but went quite about it. However city council always seemed to hold it would be needed, when people bothered to ask them. The NTA clearly held the same position and so did Dublin Bus.

    BXD will also have major restrictions on the amount of traffic allowed to flow into the route and just cross it. But it's not just BXD we're talking about -- BRT, cycle routes etc are all also planned and there's no reason to not have a jointed-up approach.

    This is all backed by the principles in the Dublin City Council development plan, supporting policies and national policy on sustainable transport.


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    #115
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    pclive wrote: »
    Eventually private motorists will not be able to travel down the full length of Dawson Street, to turn right off Westmoreland Street onto D'Olier Street or turn right from O'Connell Bridge onto Eden Quay or turn right from O'Connell Street onto Cathal Brugha Street.

    The article says private motorists....maybe buses will be permitted to makes some or all of these turns??


    That makes much more sense, it would be nonsensical to direct so many bus routes into Tara St along with all the private motorists.


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    #116
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Also the article highlights some additional permanent changes to traffic arrangements that will take place at some stage in the future as a result of the LUAS BXD being introduced:

    - No right turn from Dawson Street to Nassau Street
    - No right turn from Westmoreland Street to D'Olier Street
    - No right turn from O'Connell Bridge to Eden Quay
    - No right turn from O'Connell Street to Cathal Brugha Street.
    That will make it very awkward for cyclists going from Grafton st/temple bar to the northeast city, who will have to run the gauntlet of Townsend/Tara st
    or detour up to the Thruppeny bits
    or detour around Parnell square, or make illegal right turns

    Or will the cycle lane northbound on the Rosie Hackett bridge be implemented?


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    #117
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    That will make it very awkward for cyclists going from Grafton st/temple bar to the northeast city, who will have to run the gauntlet of Townsend/Tara st
    or detour up to the Thruppeny bits
    or detour around Parnell square, or make illegal right turns

    Or will the cycle lane northbound on the Rosie Hackett bridge be implemented?

    Already been clarified those are specifically for private lmotorists some or all of them may not apply to public transport or cyclists


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    #118
    nowecant
    Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭nowecant


    Slightly related and I don't see it getting much press anywhere else relating to road closures

    The Parnell Square cultural quarter initial images seem to suggest that Parnell Square North will be pedestrianized when the city library completes its move there.

    Pictures
    http://parnellsquare.ie/about-the-project/vision/

    and
    http://parnellsquare.ie/about-the-project/city-library-services/

    Its not a massively important route or a huge change but it will certainly makge a difference to some peoples journeys.

    Personally I think it will help to improve the area


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    #119
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Aard wrote: »
    That is very interesting. Do you know if the external company initiated anything in the way of encouraging use of PT/bike/walking? Or was it more of a baseline survey situation?
    Yeah, there was big noise made about healthy options in the canteen, being able to claim expenses for walking/cycling to clients rather than driving. It coincided with the bike to work scheme, which was nice, and they made a big fanfare about being able to claim back tax on yearly travel passes. The company of course didn't actually provide any specific incentives (such as subsidising the B2W scheme or PT travel passes), just a lot of "encouragement".
    I think the primary driver was the fact that parking spaces were at a premium in both offices and clients couldn't get in, so they started reclaiming spaces from lower management and encouraging everyone else to not drive.


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    #120
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    seamus wrote: »
    Yeah, there was big noise made about healthy options in the canteen, being able to claim expenses for walking/cycling to clients rather than driving. It coincided with the bike to work scheme, which was nice, and they made a big fanfare about being able to claim back tax on yearly travel passes. The company of course didn't actually provide any specific incentives (such as subsidising the B2W scheme or PT travel passes), just a lot of "encouragement".
    I think the primary driver was the fact that parking spaces were at a premium in both offices and clients couldn't get in, so they started reclaiming spaces from lower management and encouraging everyone else to not drive.

    Why should the company be expected to subsidise them?

    The whole point was that they saved on individual tax and PRSI.

    If the company subsidised them there would be BIK issues.

    It says an awful lot about the people working there that they weren't prepared to change. I can understand it when it comes to business parks in the suburbs, but city centre locations have decent bus services along every radial corridor.


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    #121
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Why should the company be expected to subsidise them?
    They shouldn't. I'm just raising the rather interesting point that the company was relying on marketing alone to try and push employees along. It was (as most companies do) portrayed as a bit of company wholesomeness, "we love our employees and want you to be better people", thing. When in reality it was aiming to save a bit of cash for the company and also boost morale after layoffs a year previously.

    They did the survey before any of these initiatives, FWIW, so I don't know how many people did change their mode of transport on the back of it.


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