Cars to be banned from key Dublin City Centre streets; priority to walking, buses etc

pclive

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/major-changes-proposed-in-dublin-city-transport-study-quays-college-green-suffolk-street-public-consultation-june-11-july-16/

Van.Bosch

pclive wrote: »

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/major-changes-proposed-in-dublin-city-transport-study-quays-college-green-suffolk-street-public-consultation-june-11-july-16/

From a quick glance it looks good. I imagine a lot of vested interests may object.

MrMorooka

I like that consideration is given to handing deliveries and LGVs in a smarter way. Also the idea of making bus gates only for buses and not for taxis is a good one.

I like this idea too:

Options that could be considered include the removal of the Connolly Luas Stop,
potentially transforming the space into a Commuter Bus terminus. It may also be possible to provide
a new commercial space overhead, linking directly into Connolly Station and potentially linking via a
walkway into Busaras. This would have the added advantage of allowing Connolly passengers to
move directly into Busaras at grade, without having to cross Amiens Street at street level.

Also a good idea:

It is proposed that a Coach Parking Facility will be developed close to the City Centre, providing
secure bus parking and driver facilities off-street, within easy access of the main city
attractions/employment areas. A planning application is currently being prepared for such a facility
at a site in the Dublin Docklands area.
This facility will provide safe, secure parking for both commuter and tourist coaches within a short
distance of the city centre. It will also provide rest and convenience facilities for bus drivers. It is
anticipated that this facility will work in conjunction with short term set down Coach Stops within
the city centre, where passengers and tourists can be dropped off/picked up in close proximity to
their destination.

Overall, some great ideas here. Needs investment in areas outside the city centre as well to be honest to be truly effective, and needs to get past the vested interests, but I'm hopeful.

MrMorooka

Also, just build the shagging DART Underground, it would create huge extra capacity and enable a lot of the proposals in the report.

stop

City Swift livery on the way back on College Green :pac:

Expecting the following on lunchtime/drivetime talk shows:

Owner of BT Car Park
Owner of Carrolls
Union official representing de Taxis who will demand transit via College Green.

monument

I'm impressed with the overall outline. Going to look at details when I can...

MrMorooka wrote: »

Also, just build the shagging DART Underground, it would create huge extra capacity and enable a lot of the proposals in the report.

All of the proposals are designed with the idea that Dart Ungerground won't be up and running first.

Jamie2k9

Looks good in general

Look forward to hearing taxi drivers views! :rolleyes:

MrMorooka

monument wrote: »

All of the proposals are designed with the idea that Dart Ungerground won't be up and running first.

I know, but it would be a lot easier to 'sell' the proposals to unbelievers if DU was on the cards.

MJohnston

http://dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Traffic/Documents/CoreCityCentre.jpg

Can anyone clarify the alternative private car arrangements that will exist for the changes at Bachelor's Walk, and George's Quay? Are they going to reverse the one-way system on Liffey Street? West bound traffic from the Docklands area is going to have a long detour also, surely - can the SCR cope with all that extra traffic?

hardCopy

stop wrote: »

City Swift livery on the way back on College Green :pac:

Expecting the following on lunchtime/drivetime talk shows:

Owner of BT Car Park
Owner of Carrolls
Union official representing de Taxis who will demand transit via College Green.

Paging Gerry Breen

thomasj

Plans for Suffolk street to be pedestrianised.

So could the existing bus reroutings become permanent

From rte report. http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0610/707151-dublin-city-centre-transport-study/

Some of the restrictions are necessary because of Luas works, but will become permanent afterwards.

pclive

MJohnston wrote: »

http://dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Traffic/Documents/CoreCityCentre.jpg

Can anyone clarify the alternative private car arrangements that will exist for the changes at Bachelor's Walk, and George's Quay? Are they going to reverse the one-way system on Liffey Street? West bound traffic from the Docklands area is going to have a long detour also, surely - can the SCR cope with all that extra traffic?

The alternative is to use public transport

MJohnston

pclive wrote: »

The alternative is to use public transport

Thanks, thats not actually the question I asked though.

pclive

I would imagine it would involve using the Canal, cant see them reversing the flow of traffic on Liffey Street

MJohnston

The map must be wrong then - where does eastbound traffic go when it reaches Liffey Street otherwise? Note that on George's Quay it mentions that the restrictions extend back to the Talbot bridge (and therefore not creating a dead end).

pclive

Think its ok to proceed up as far as Jervis Street. Maybe you are reading it wrong?

pclive

They should pedestrianise liffey street as far as North Lotts as well


Its actually Jervis Street:

Bachelors Walk Bus Gate – the diversion of general car traffic from Bachelors Walk between
its junction with Jervis Street and its junction with O’Connell Street;

jack presley

How long before this thread turns into a motorist v cyclist thread?

Seriously though, is the plan for Pearse Street traffic to all head across the Liffey at Tara street? I'd imagine a good chunk of these head down the quays at the moment.

AngryLips

i wonder how practical it would be for the council to do away with on-street parking. if this weren't an option, then maybe they could moved away from allowing parking on both sides of the street to a situation where parking is only permitted on one side but with perpendicular parking so that capacity doesn't suffer as much.

Lucan123

Plans look good, but as usual the devil is in the detail which I'm guessing was not in scope when putting the report together.

It looks like the bus users coming from West Dublin will face increased journey times

- No Left turn from Westmoreland St to the Quays, but no alternative given (that I could see). This is because of the lemming pedestrians who walk in front of traffic turning when they see the traffic on Burgh Quay stopped. Personally I always though changing the sequence would solve the problem so it be Burgh - Pedestrian - Westmoreland

- No Right turn from Bachelors Walk onto O'Connell Bridge (using Rosie Hacket instead), the reasoning is because the buses face delays crossing 2 lanes of traffic, but wouldn’t the proposed Bachelors Walk bus gate solve this? (assuming the bus gate would be enforced unlike the 2009 College Green bus gate which was basically ignored up to 6 months ago). This also removes busses from Lucan, Leixlip, Celbridge & Maynooth from the proposed D'Ollier St hub

Let’s hope thy think things through properly and not just hope for the best because it sounds nice

pclive

Lucan123 wrote: »

Plans look good, but as usual the devil is in the detail which I'm guessing was not in scope when putting the report together.

- No Left turn from Westmoreland St to the Quays, but no alternative given (that I could see). This is because of the lemming pedestrians who walk in front of traffic turning when they see the traffic on Burgh Quay stopped. Personally I always though changing the sequence would solve the problem so it be Burgh - Pedestrian - Westmoreland

Let’s hope thy think things through properly and not just hope for the best because it sounds nice

Outbound buses will head north on O'Connell Bridge - Eden Quay - Rosie Hacket Bridge - Burgh Quay - Aston Quay

pclive

Lucan123 wrote: »

- No Right turn from Bachelors Walk onto O'Connell Bridge (using Rosie Hacket instead), the reasoning is because the buses face delays crossing 2 lanes of traffic, but wouldn’t the proposed Bachelors Walk bus gate solve this? (assuming the bus gate would be enforced unlike the 2009 College Green bus gate which was basically ignored up to 6 months ago). This also removes busses from Lucan, Leixlip, Celbridge & Maynooth from the proposed D'Ollier St hub

Buses will still be able to access D'Olier Street by crossing the Rosie Hackett and then by going west bound on Burgh Quay

LXFlyer

Lucan123 wrote: »

Plans look good, but as usual the devil is in the detail which I'm guessing was not in scope when putting the report together.

It looks like the bus users coming from West Dublin will face increased journey times

- No Left turn from Westmoreland St to the Quays, but no alternative given (that I could see). This is because of the lemming pedestrians who walk in front of traffic turning when they see the traffic on Burgh Quay stopped. Personally I always though changing the sequence would solve the problem so it be Burgh - Pedestrian - Westmoreland

- No Right turn from Bachelors Walk onto O'Connell Bridge (using Rosie Hacket instead), the reasoning is because the buses face delays crossing 2 lanes of traffic, but wouldn’t the proposed Bachelors Walk bus gate solve this? (assuming the bus gate would be enforced unlike the 2009 College Green bus gate which was basically ignored up to 6 months ago). This also removes busses from Lucan, Leixlip, Celbridge & Maynooth from the proposed D'Ollier St hub

Let’s hope thy think things through properly and not just hope for the best because it sounds nice

pclive wrote: »

Outbound buses will head north on O'Connell Bridge - Eden Quay - Rosie Hacket Bridge - Burgh Quay - Aston Quay

pclive wrote: »

Buses will still be able to access D'Olier Street by crossing the Rosie Hackett and then by going west bound on Burgh Quay

While I'd broadly approve of the plans, the proposed removal of the left turn from Westmoreland Street onto Aston Quay is a tad worrying.

All of the 25/a/b/x, 26, 39/a, 66/a/b/x, 67/x, 70 and 145 come from Pearse Street, through the bus gate past the garda station, onto College Street and into Westmoreland Street.

Are all those buses going to have to route via Tara Street instead to access Burgh Quay, with all of the general traffic that uses that route instead of using the bus gate to College Street?

How will the 83 get from Westmoreland Street to the Quays and Church Street?

The notion suggested above that they go around in a loop is just nonsensical and totally impractical.

Inbound, the right turn removal at O'Connell Bridge is not such a big issue for these routes. They can use the with-flow bus lane on Eden Quay and use the Rosie Hackett Bridge and operate via Hawkins Street before using their current route via College Street, Grafton Street and Nassau Street (or College Green for the 83).

No mention either of whether the right turn from O'Connell Bridge onto Eden Quay is to be removed/retained? This is used by the 14, 15, 27 and Swords Express and as such is a busy turn (the maps for LUAS BXD suggested that it would be removed (see page 3 of this link - https://1f19be030965d7aa9cd5-0ea8ebfb2bc7a6161d6ab1bbbbe2306e.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/LCC-Route-Pack-1.pdf)

I'm disappointed that more thought has not been given in the study as to providing a second bus station for inter-regional services. A second bus station is badly needed, as Bus Aras is pretty much at capacity as it is, and it is nonsensical for the current situation to prevail with operators such as Aircoach, Citylink, Dublin Coach etc. having to stand on-street for lengthy periods of time while inter-regional coach services load/unload.

Removing Connolly LUAS stop is not the answer - it is very useful in enabling additional capacity on the LUAS in the city centre, and would be nowhere near big enough to facilitate a commuter bus station. Removing it would mean extra trams would be needed due to the extra running time to/from the Point.

monument

jack presley wrote: »

How long before this thread turns into a motorist v cyclist thread?

Any of this will not be tolerated and posts will be deleted.

-- mod

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

i wonder how practical it would be for the council to do away with on-street parking. if this weren't an option, then maybe they could moved away from allowing parking on both sides of the street to a situation where parking is only permitted on one side but with perpendicular parking so that capacity doesn't suffer as much.

Their track record on any suggestions about removing on-street parking has not been good - it's a big revenue stream for the council.

Chris_5339762

thomasj wrote: »

Plans for Suffolk street to be pedestrianised.

So could the existing bus reroutings become permanent

From rte report. http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0610/707151-dublin-city-centre-transport-study/

This is a real no-brainer to be honest. Everyone is now used to the fact that you can't drive/bus/etc down there and its too narrow for all the buses that used to use it anyway. Its much, much, much better now that its effectively pedestrianised.

Overall, I think its all quite positive (and I say that as someone who barrels his way into the city center and parks in a loading bay at precisely 7pm directly outside where he wants to be), apart from two things.

The Bachelors Walk thing has to be clarified... I don't see how a dead-end along the North Quays can easily be addressed and not for cars, but for buses.

Also, they HAVE to be strong on banning taxi drivers from College Green. Its another no-brainer to have the bus gate 24hrs... it'll make it easier to police as well. But the taxis have to be removed from there to make it a more pleasant place to be.

Spanish Eyes

Personally I think the thread title should be changed to mention the banning of cars and taxis from certain areas, and the emphasis on PT and pedestrians.

Not criticising the OP, but it might get a lot more attention!

thomasj

lxflyer wrote: »

While I'd broadly approve of the plans, the proposed removal of the left turn from Westmoreland Street onto Aston Quay is a tad worrying.

All of the 25/a/b/x, 26, 39/a, 66/a/b/x, 67/x, 70 and 145 come from Pearse Street, through the bus gate past the garda station, onto College Street and into Westmoreland Street.

In fairness, its been while since I've been on a 39/a that has taken that route. They usually go down Tara street left onto burgh quay And onwards.

MrMorooka

thomasj wrote: »

In fairness, its been while since I've been on a 39/a that has taken that route. They usually go down Tara street left onto burgh quay And onwards.

Yup, most drivers have decided that Tara St-Burgh Quay route is much faster, less traffic lights and more green time, and no need to cross all the way from the east to west side of Westmoreland St.

Spanish Eyes

MrMorooka wrote: »

Yup, most drivers have decided that Tara St-Burgh Quay route is much faster, less traffic lights and more green time, and no need to cross all the way from the east to west side of Westmoreland St.

Sounds like a no brainer to me.

Have they, or will they have a bus lane on Tara/Burgh Q?

Makes sense. The other West bound routes, Lucan and beyond will surely use this when Luas is running.

TallGlass

I think DCC have lost there minds if they think banning cars from Bachelor's Walk is a good idea, that is going to cause chaos. Sure look what happens when there are sit down processes at the O Connel bridge intersection. Won't matter to me I just avoid town like plague.

AngryLips

lxflyer wrote: »

While I'd broadly approve of the plans, the proposed removal of the left turn from Westmoreland Street onto Aston Quay is a tad worrying.

I think it's absolutely essential that this left turn is removed, that junction is a total mess at the moment and there is no getting away from the reality that this is one of the most important pedestrian corridors in the city - that's not something that can be changed and DCC are right to plan around it. It's hard to know what the final vision is but, given the overall expected reduction in other traffic which this plan envisions, it's a leap to argue that rerouting bus routes through a detour via other streets would necessarily lead to increased journey times. The current projections on traffic growth will break the as-is scenario anyway in terms of congestion so comparing it to what we have now is academic. Maybe they'll send busses down College St/Hawkin St to join the quays from there?

monument

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Personally I think the thread title should be changed to mention the banning of cars and taxis from certain areas, and the emphasis on PT and pedestrians.

Not criticising the OP, but it might get a lot more attention!

Thread title changed

TallGlass wrote: »

I think DCC have lost there minds if they think banning cars from Bachelor's Walk is a good idea, that is going to cause chaos. Sure look what happens when there are sit down processes at the O Connel bridge intersection. Won't matter to me I just avoid town like plague.

There's a big difference between diverting cars in a planned way and the disruption from a protest.

TallGlass

monument wrote: »

Thread title changed



There's a big difference between diverting cars in a planned way and the disruption from a protest.

Obviously there is, but diverting all that traffic is just going to cause more traffic around the surrounding areas. Its not solving a problem. As a matter of interest do you drive? Have you ever drove around the places there mentioning banning cars?

They need to come up with a proper solution to the traffic situation in Dublin at the moment its getting out of control. Banning cars isn't going to fix this problem.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

I think it's absolutely essential that this left turn is removed, that junction is a total mess at the moment and there is no getting away from the reality that this is one of the most important pedestrian corridors in the city - that's not something that can be changed and DCC are right to plan around it. It's hard to know what the final vision is but, given the overall expected reduction in other traffic which this plan envisions, it's a leap to argue that rerouting bus routes through a detour via other streets would necessarily lead to increased journey times. The current projections on traffic growth will break the as-is scenario anyway in terms of congestion so comparing it to what we have now is academic. Maybe they'll send busses down College St/Hawkin St to join the quays from there?

They won't be going north along Hawkins St.

The west side of that street will be where the LUAS line will be, and the east side will be needed for all the buses diverted away from O'Connell Bridge as they come down the Quays.

It's quite possible that Tara Street would work, but it reduces the usefulness of the Pearse St bus gate.

LXFlyer

TallGlass wrote: »

Obviously there is, but diverting all that traffic is just going to cause more traffic around the surrounding areas. Its not solving a problem. As a matter of interest do you drive? Have you ever drove around the places there mentioning banning cars?

They need to come up with a proper solution to the traffic situation in Dublin at the moment its getting out of control. Banning cars isn't going to fix this problem.

Like it or not, we have to accept that the bus service is still going to be the dominant form of public transport, be it BRT or normal buses for some time to come.

If there is going to be any hope of that bus service proving successful then decisions which are likely to be unpopular among motorists are going to have to be taken.

We simply cannot continue as is.

We now have a radically changed his network with far more cross city routes with regular interval departures, but where the interval just grows exponentially at peak hours because the buses get stuck in traffic.

Then people start complaining about buses being late, or ineffective.

Some difficult decisions need to be taken that make using the city centre as a through route unattractive to car drivers, but which do still allow access to city centre car parks for shoppers.

The devil ultimately will be in the details, but people need to realise that public transport cannot be improved without smashing a few eggs along the way.

Fizzy Duck

lxflyer wrote: »

They won't be going north along Hawkins St.

The west side of that street will be where the LUAS line will be, and the east side will be needed for all the buses diverted away from O'Connell Bridge as they come down the Quays.

It's quite possible that Tara Street would work, but it reduces the usefulness of the Pearse St bus gate.

Is it not proposed that the buses come up D'Olier Street? It will have two traffic lanes and spaces for buses to pull in and one lane for the BRT. Or was this just in the leaked plans from the previous year?

LXFlyer

Fizzy Duck wrote: »

Is it not proposed that the buses come up D'Olier Street? It will have two traffic lanes and spaces for buses to pull in and one lane for the BRT. Or was this just in the leaked plans from the previous year?

There won't be a right turn from Bachelors Walk onto O'Connell Bridge. Those buses will have to continue onto Eden Quay and turn right onto the Rosie Hackett Bridge.

I don't see any point in them doubling back along Burgh Quay onto D'Olier Street. It would make far more sense for them to use Hawkins Street

There are plenty of routes coming down O'Connell Street and coming from the Amiens Street direction to serve D'Olier Street.

The montage above was from the leaked plans which were still a work in progress.

Fizzy Duck

I meant instead of the banned westmoreland to aston quay movement would it not be envisaged they run d'olier to aston quay?

AngryLips

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't see any point in them doubling back along Burgh Quay onto D'Olier Street. It would make far more sense for them to use Hawkins Street.

Unless of course, Hawkins Street were needed to route outbound bus services onto the quays now that the left turn from Westmoreland Street onto the quays is being banned. It's just speculation sure, we don't know if D'Olier Street will be changed to a two-way street.

PLL

The 'After' photos make it look so much more like a modern European city.

Spanish Eyes

PLL wrote: »

The 'After' photos make it look so much more like a modern European city.

They certainly do.

But I don't want the character of the city to be lost either. Dublin has great charm. Just needs to be cleaned up and patrolled properly by the Gardai, and of course given back to us, at last.

noelfirl

PLL wrote: »

The 'After' photos make it look so much more like a modern European city.

They're doing that tiny bit of codology again of having bright blue skies and short sleeved shiny happy people walking about. I await the day when we get an after photo with driving rain and hailstones

Spanish Eyes

noelfirl wrote: »

They're doing that tiny bit of codology again of having bright blue skies and short sleeved sunny happy people walking about. I await the day when we get an after photo with driving rain and hailstones

Ah would you go way with yerself and your negativity FGS

It's always sunny in Dublin for publicity and tourism purposes.

The rest of us live there.

LXFlyer

Fizzy Duck wrote: »

I meant instead of the banned westmoreland to aston quay movement would it not be envisaged they run d'olier to aston quay?

The original montage that you linked to above was before BRT was added to the equation. I can't see a contra-flow bus lane fitting in with a BRT lane, median, bus lanes and a general traffic lane.

AngryLips wrote: »

Unless of course, Hawkins Street were needed to route outbound bus services onto the quays now that the left turn from Westmoreland Street onto the quays is being banned. It's just speculation sure, we don't know if D'Olier Street will be changed to a two-way street.

Again, I doubt it. As I posted above the LUAS lines will be on the western side of the street, and the east side will be needed for the buses diverted from O'Connell Bridge.


I suspect that Tara Street and Burgh Quay will be used for outbound buses.

dfx-

Isn't it all sort of hypothetical until the city centre lobbying groups barge in and dilute it?

Could the transport network cope with the added custom from this change?

MGWR

pclive wrote: »

The alternative is to use public transport

It's not an alternative if you're forced to use it.

MGWR

dfx- wrote: »

Isn't it all sort of hypothetical until the city centre lobbying groups barge in and dilute it?

Could the transport network cope with the added custom from this change?

Yes, and no.

As for "dilute", that needs context.

galljga1

I have skimmed through the posts so far so forgive me if this has been covered.
Is there anywhere that mentions projections covering the number of cars that will be removed from the road network vs increased public transport supply? Any increase in park and ride facilities for those living in more rural outlying areas?

thomasj

Personally I think if a London style charge was to be applied here ASAP, it will force private drivers to look at other options and it would ease the transition as traffic levels in the city would surely reduce.

Otherwise a sudden Monday morning changeover is just going to cause chaos.

Subpopulus

dfx- wrote: »

Isn't it all sort of hypothetical until the city centre lobbying groups barge in and dilute it?

Could the transport network cope with the added custom from this change?

Much of this Scheme is made up of other smaller schemes, which have been pulled together in a coherent fashion so that they're not all tripping over each others toes. This includes LUAS CrossCity, the BRT systems, the Greater Dublin Cycle network etc. etc. Surprisingly the synergy of all these parts has come together quite nicely, without any major bodges. They've also been developed over the past few years, so there's a fairly weighty body of work behind them now. There's now a very large case that this scheme has been thought through, and that this can work.

Some of the proposals of the scheme are already happening in various ways - such as Suffolk Street being pedestrianised, and the reduction in the number of bus routes terminating in the city centre. Also, when the LUAS starts running across the city centre then something will have to be done - the status quo won't work really any more.

Regarding the added custom - part of the plan involves expanding the bus service, buying new busses etc. What I'd be more worried about is the LUAS becoming completely jammed with people, especially if its range is to be expanded northwards.