Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

Bridge93

I'm actually quite surprised with how Ulster are going. If you took the equivalent of Best, Coetzee, Jackson, Payne and Olding out of the other provinces I think most would struggle. Add An aging Henry, Bowe and Trimble too and I thought it would be a lot worse

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

Is this chorus of complaint about defence not pretty obviously just an agenda against Kiss?

Earlier in the season the coaching in general was the problem. Now that there are a few good wins under the teams belt all of a sudden it's the defence now...

Seems like an effort to keep the blame firmly squared on Les's door. Sometimes when you are opening up teams you leave the door open behind you, if Ulster need to tighten up they've shown that they can.

Our defence has been poor all season not just Friday night.

That said I agree I think there is an agenda against Kiss and that others have got caught up on it.

Kiss deserves criticism for reasons I've talked about before (rotation being my biggest gripe) but he does seem to get the blame for things that are out of his control.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Our defence has been poor all season not just Friday night.

That said I agree I think there is an agenda against Kiss and that others have got caught up on it.

Kiss deserves criticism for reasons I've talked about before (rotation being my biggest gripe) but he does seem to get the blame for things that are out of his control.

Even rotation is very hard to assess without access to the data that Ulster have. I think I posted before about the kind of data that Kitman Labs produce and it's scary the amount of information about player injuries and potential injuries that they can pinpoint and predict.

Here's an example that Kevin McLaughlin retweeted a short time ago:

This is extremely detailed stuff and very hard for the average fan to assess or even recognise.

irishbucsfan

His selections have been absolutely ridiculous really. Ulsters defense has been pretty poor. No doubt at all to me that he’s facing an uphill battle to become a long-term success. There’s a point of no-return with a squad, not that I think he’s there yet.

Former Former

Just taking Friday's game as a a microcosm...

Quins were finding all sorts of gaps in the Ulster defence - that's down to the systems and coaching.

But for each of the four Quins tries, there was an Ulster man in position to make a straightforward 1 on 1 tackle and they all fluffed it. Cooney, Piutau, Cooney again and whoever #20 was. Can't blame Kiss for that.

A problem with the coaches and a problem with the players are not mutually exclusive.

People keep comparing it to the Leinster era under MOC. I don't know if that's valid, but MOC ground out results for a long time in much the same way Ulster are now, even if the performances weren't stellar. The question is where it goes from here.

bilston

prawnsambo wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Our defence has been poor all season not just Friday night.

That said I agree I think there is an agenda against Kiss and that others have got caught up on it.

Kiss deserves criticism for reasons I've talked about before (rotation being my biggest gripe) but he does seem to get the blame for things that are out of his control.

Even rotation is very hard to assess without access to the data that Ulster have. I think I posted before about the kind of data that Kitman Labs produce and it's scary the amount of information about player injuries and potential injuries that they can pinpoint and predict.

Here's an example that Kevin McLaughlin retweeted a short time ago:

This is extremely detailed stuff and very hard for the average fan to assess or even recognise.

Yeah but not picking his strongest team to go to La Rochelle? That I will never agree with. It just sends completely the wrong message to the squad that he didn't believe we could win there.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Yeah but not picking his strongest team to go to La Rochelle? That I will never agree with. It just sends completely the wrong message to the squad that he didn't believe we could win there.

Is that not a factor of poor squad depth though? In those circumstances, you have to prioritise your matches and just write off ones that even with your strongest team you don't think you can win.

I'm not saying that's the correct decision in that particular instance, but being pragmatic, did anyone here think Ulster could have won that one?

Saw Niall O'Connor in a taxi with Les Kiss earlier.

Could be a coincidence I suppose.

molloyjh

Personally I think bilston should just take over up in Belfast. He's making far too many sensible posts for the internet and could be putting those ideas and opinions to better use.

awec

The way I look at it is that the problems at Ulster permeate the squad and the coaching staff, but change must come from the top down. This squad needs a massive kick up the arse, they are under performing on a pretty regular basis and there are just too many sub-standard players.

I don't see how he is the man to turn Ulster around. He has been there long enough now and we've seen no improvement, only further regression. In my mind (and the mind of many others) he has to go to be replaced with a stronger coach who can deliver the message needed to this squad. I think his position is close to untenable, but not quite there yet.

His selections are bizarre at times, his substitutions are bizarre at times, Ulster are as leaky as a sieve in defence. His time is up. He won't be let go before the end of the season but he has not done anywhere near well enough to warrant any new contract. Kiss admitted himself last year that he knew he would be under intense scrutiny this season because of the poor results and poor performances. Things haven't improved.

I'd say the next two months are pivotal. Fail to progress from the group yet again and bad results in the league and I'm sure they'll be out looking for a replacement, or at the very least promote Gibbes and find ourselves a defence coach who can actually teach this team to defend.

And if the IRFU like Kiss so much they can take him back.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

The way I look at it is that the problems at Ulster permeate the squad and the coaching staff, but change must come from the top down. This squad needs a massive kick up the arse, they are under performing on a pretty regular basis and there are just too many sub-standard players.

I don't see how he is the man to turn Ulster around. He has been there long enough now and we've seen no improvement, only further regression. In my mind (and the mind of many others) he has to go to be replaced with a stronger coach who can deliver the message needed to this squad. I think his position is close to untenable, but not quite there yet.

His selections are bizarre at times, his substitutions are bizarre at times, Ulster are as leaky as a sieve in defence. His time is up. He won't be let go before the end of the season but he has not done anywhere near well enough to warrant any new contract. Kiss admitted himself last year that he knew he would be under intense scrutiny this season because of the poor results and poor performances. Things haven't improved.

I'd say the next two months are pivotal. Fail to progress from the group yet again and bad results in the league and I'm sure they'll be out looking for a replacement, or at the very least promote Gibbes and find ourselves a defence coach who can actually teach this team to defend.

And if the IRFU like Kiss so much they can take him back.

His position isn't quite untenable but his time is up? How does that happen simultaneously?

A lot of that post I do agree with. But without knowing the culture of the club it's very hard to comment. For example if there really is an overbearing player power element to the culture there then that will take time to correct. And things like freezing Cave out is a step in the right direction if the point is to start addressing that issue.

Improving the playing squad, particularly up front, is incredibly important too. And we have to give credit where it's due, Kiss has done a pretty decent job of that so far.

I haven't seen a huge amount of Ulsters games this season so am not really in a position to comment on their defence, but I struggle to understand how a guy who is a great defence coach at RWC level struggles at Pro14 level. There's something not quite right there for me. And maybe he's just not great at getting a weaker squad to do the business and having a strong international squad covered that up. Maybe the players simply aren't switched on enough during games though too. Hell maybe there are 3 or 4 different reasons all combining to cause the issue. But when you have a team with a history of under performing then at some point the focus, or at least a portion of it, needs to move away from the coaches and on to them. A defence coach can coach a system, he can't make players get into the right positions on the field or make their tackles.

The selection thing is without doubt an issue. I'd be easy going on that in the Pro14 because you simply can't play your best players in every game. But in Europe there's very little excuse.

I think Kiss is on very thin ice and I don't think he helps himself with his press dealings either. A bit more honesty and forthrightness wouldn't go amiss...

$ausage$

I heard a rumor that back in the day Doak was having a meeting with key players before a game, which as Head Coach you would expect, and LK walked in. He must not have known about it and exploded and said that Doak was gone.
Didnt think much of it but then come end of the season out he went. So I think he is very good at his front PR side, but maybe a bit power hungry internally.

awec

awec wrote: »

And if the IRFU like Kiss so much they can take him back.

Sometimes you go and make a fairly reasonable post and then finish it up with something like this and it really takes away from the post.

The IRFU didn't inflict Kiss on Ulster, Ulster would have signed off on whether they wanted Kiss and Kiss would have had to interview for the position. I wouldn't have wanted Kiss taking over at Leinster after MOC, but given a choice between Leo and Kiss I'd easily have gone with Kiss. It's pretty evident from the provinces that good coaches aren't growing on trees and the utter resentment for Kiss isn't going to make replacing him any easier, it certainly didn't help Leinster garner interest after MOC.

The ire towards the IRFU from Ulster supporters is baffling to me.

thomond2006

Deleted User wrote: »

The ire towards the IRFU from Ulster supporters is baffling to me.

Darth Nucifora feeds from their pain.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Sometimes you go and make a fairly reasonable post and then finish it up with something like this and it really takes away from the post.

The IRFU didn't inflict Kiss on Ulster, Ulster would have signed off on whether they wanted Kiss and Kiss would have had to interview for the position. I wouldn't have wanted Kiss taking over at Leinster after MOC, but given a choice between Leo and Kiss I'd easily have gone with Kiss. It's pretty evident from the provinces that good coaches aren't growing on trees and the utter resentment for Kiss isn't going to make replacing him any easier, it certainly didn't help Leinster garner interest after MOC.

The ire towards the IRFU from Ulster supporters is baffling to me.

Yeah, how many coaches will Ulster have burned through in 5-6 years if they let Kiss go at the end of the season. That's not going to make them very appealing to quality coaches really is it?

Buer

Ulster have won 3 of their opening 4 games in Europe and have been missing their top players throughout. I've serious doubts over Kiss but I don't think even Ulster are going to give him the boot unless things go pretty dismally for the remainder of the season. He has saved his skin over the past week, I believe.

The list of absentees that he has endured is quite significant and he has been pretty much without his 3 most influential players for the entire season to date effectively in Jackson, Coetzee and Best.

Ulster have also been integrating some new players into the senior set up which is promising. I can't see Kiss being given the door this season. They'd have to already have made the decision if they want to start identifying a replacement. I don't think Ulster are going to be winning any silverware under him, though.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Darth Nucifora feeds from their pain.

Whether Nucifora made the call or just enforced the policy I don't know but hasn't it been proved utterly correct?

Cooney is winning man of the match awards and pushing towards potentially being no.2 for Ireland whilst Pienaar has spent the season on the sidelines.

Cooney had his agent get onto Ulster when he heard Pienaar was going if I'm not mistaken and now after all the Nucifora hassle, the reality is that had they not enforced the Pienaar decision there is a good chance that Marshall would have been starting games all season for them.

Has anyone on this thread even acknowledged this fact?

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah, how many coaches will Ulster have burned through in 5-6 years if they let Kiss go at the end of the season. That's not going to make them very appealing to quality coaches really is it?

Like Jonno Gibbes?

awec

Buer wrote: »

Ulster have won 3 of their opening 4 games in Europe and have been missing their top players throughout. I've serious doubts over Kiss but I don't think even Ulster are going to give him the boot unless things go pretty dismally for the remainder of the season. He has saved his skin over the past week, I believe.

The list of absentees that he has endured is quite significant and he has been pretty much without his 3 most influential players for the entire season to date effectively in Jackson, Coetzee and Best.

Ulster have also been integrating some new players into the senior set up which is promising. I can't see Kiss being given the door this season. They'd have to already have made the decision if they want to start identifying a replacement. I don't think Ulster are going to be winning any silverware under him, though.

So what's the point in keeping him?

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

Darth Nucifora feeds from their pain.

Whether Nucifora made the call or just enforced the policy I don't know but hasn't it been proved utterly correct?

Cooney is winning man of the match awards and pushing towards potentially being no.2 for Ireland whilst Pienaar has spent the season on the sidelines.

Cooney had his agent get onto Ulster when he heard Pienaar was going if I'm not mistaken and now after all the Nucifora hassle, the reality is that had they not enforced the Pienaar decision there is a good chance that Marshall would have been starting games all season for them.

Has anyone on this thread even acknowledged this fact?

I think the fact we barely mention Pienaar these is testament in itself to Ulster fans acknowledging it may have turned our for the best. Or at least as well as it could have...

Buer

awec wrote: »

So what's the point in keeping him?

I'm not sure there is a coach that Ulster are going to win silverware any time soon under and medals aren't the be all and end all. I don't believe Ulster have the squad to win any trophy at the moment. The depth isn't there yet.

MOC has more trophies with Leinster than Cullen/Lancaster does but the latter has reinvigorated Leinster and developed multiple players to bring Leinster through a transitional period. If Kiss can achieve that level of development through a transitional phase then it will be an achievement.

Ulster had no success with the same core group of players over 5 or 6 years. Those guys (Best, Trimble, Bowe, Henry, Wilson, Pienaar, Marshall) are now gone or circling the drain and little was done in that period to prepare for the future. I have misgivings about Kiss but he's developing players and has successfully integrated some new options which is not something that should be overlooked.

arsebiscuits1

awec wrote: »

I hear Ulster have an All Black 10 lined up for next season, depending on the outcome in January / February.

All Black or New Zealander?

Quade Cooper: Place of birth Auckland, New Zealand

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Personally I think bilston should just take over up in Belfast. He's making far too many sensible posts for the internet and could be putting those ideas and opinions to better use.

Just to touch on this, in my experience the very best coaches actually make the very worst posts on the internet. Phillip Doyle springs to mind as well as a few of my own personal favourites.

Appointing bilston would likely lead Ulster into an era of unprecedented destruction. However awec would probably bring them 4 Heineken Cups.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Like Jonno Gibbes?

Gibbes hasn't been a head coach anywhere yet. So would be behind any head coaches who might apply for the job. So is that where Ulster would be aiming? For some assistant coach looking for a promotion?

CIARAN_BOYLE

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah, how many coaches will Ulster have burned through in 5-6 years if they let Kiss go at the end of the season. That's not going to make them very appealing to quality coaches really is it?

Personally to me this is the first year Kiss got to arrange the coaching set up in Ulster.

If we look at the last month we are definitely seeing good signs of improvement. To me kiss gets the rest of the season to continue this.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just to touch on this, in my experience the very best coaches actually make the very worst posts on the internet. Phillip Doyle springs to mind as well as a few of my own personal favourites.

Appointing bilston would likely lead Ulster into an era of unprecedented destruction. However awec would probably bring them 4 Heineken Cups.

I would immediately initiate plans for secession.

And then we can talk about all the trophies I'd deliver.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Like Jonno Gibbes?

Again, read the post. The "if they let Kiss go" bit matters. You might not have noticed, but that hasn't happened yet and so was never going to impact Gibbs' decision.

awec wrote: »

I would immediately initiate plans for secession.

And then we can talk about all the trophies I'd deliver.

The inaugural Ulster Champions Cup?

Yeah_Right

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

All Black or New Zealander?

That's the big question. Can't see any of the AB 10s moving. Maybe Otere Black or Bryn Gatland. Maybe Marty Banks.

sydthebeat

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That's the big question. Can't see any of the AB 10s moving. Maybe Otere Black or Bryn Gatland. Maybe Marty Banks.

quite possibly, hes only on a one year deal at treviso....

maybe buying Tom Taylor out a season early?

Bring Ian home