So when will there be a referendum on criminalizing meat eating?

Sleepy

Take away my right to an Irish breakfast and I will not be a happy camper.

We're omnivorous animals. We can choose to be vegetarian if we want to, I don't want to so I choose not to be. I don't recognise anyone else as having the right to tell me that I can't make that choice freely.

CruelCoin

Fat Christy wrote: »

Will someone please think of the plants and the vegetables??!!! If it grows, it lives. Justice for turnips!

#stopturnipmurder

CruelCoin

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

The few vegetarians I know are sickly, pale weaklings... who would want to live like that ?

I really want a medium to rare steak now with all this chat of tasty food

Word from a man that rarely orders anything other than steak in restaurants: If you want medium-rare, order it rare. The Irish always overcook their meat.

ThinkProgress

silverfeather wrote: »

It has no nervous system it can't feel pain. Neither can most non chordates. Clams for example can't feel pain.

People go on about how in your face vegetarians are it's quite the opposite. People boast about their lack of empathy or feeling for animals. They can't be arsed to improve conditions so they try to condition themselves to accept factory farming.

We haven't even begun to tap the surface in terms of what we know about plants and other organic matter.

Just look in our seas and oceans to witness the incredibly unusual plants we have on this planet.

For you and other veggie eating apologists to be so arrogant, as to think plants are just useless unfeeling "things" to be slaughtered in a blender - is just wilfully being ignorant!

At least we are honest about our killing. We don't delude ourselves and try to hypocritically shame others around us!

Plant murderers!!!!

Gazzmonkey

CruelCoin wrote: »

Word from a man that rarely orders anything other than steak in restaurants: If you want medium-rare, order it rare. The Irish always overcook their meat.

lol, you'll be happy to know the opposite is true, steak is a rip off to buy.

We are however... omnivores, to reject meat is un-natural but so is drinking milk beyond toddler age.

@ OP going by how you word your sentences, I can tell you really wouldn't enjoy the cruelty I've witnessed been done to animals in the name of fun. Cats been hung by the neck, dogs having their lower jaw bones blown off by fireworks, the chicks of ground nesting birds been used as golf balls, the list goes on.

You don't know what cruelty is OP

Magico Gonzalez

The crux of the vegetarian argument revolves around words like "murder" and "psychopath" and that's basically why they cannot be taken seriously.

Unless of course we are to believe that the whole course of human development, communication and forming social groups (these things occurred due to the need to source meat, to hunt...not due to the pressing need to form a drum circle and make kale smoothies) are murderous and psychopathic.

We're simply following our evolutionary path. I agree, we have become somewhat fixated on animal protein and in the interests of protecting our supply we should eat less meat and more vegetable.

I see that it's an emotional issue for vegetarians. It's not for the rest of us as we don't see the need to invest or assign emotional importance to the animals we eat. I love my dog, I eat my dinner. See, we're complex us humans. Our emotional intelligence allows us to be Machiavellian when it suits. I'm fine with that, I don't subscribe to a binary view of the world that says if I care about some animals I must care for all of them. It's a simplistic view that doesn't interest anymore than some head the ball yelling murderer at me as I enjoy my dinner.

Fat Christy

CruelCoin wrote: »

#stopturnipmurder

Turnips unite!!

LoTR

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

The crux of the vegetarian argument revolves around words like "murder" and "psychopath" and that's basically why they cannot be taken seriously.

Unless of course we are to believe that the whole course of human development, communication and forming social groups (these things occurred due to the need to source meat, to hunt...not due to the pressing need to form a drum circle and make kale smoothies) are murderous and psychopathic.

Nope, we're talking about modern day farm animals and their treatment. You can not compare in any way shape or form modern realities with hunter and gatherer societies of ages ago. It was never a question.

I see that it's an emotional issue for vegetarians. It's not for the rest of us as we don't see the need to invest or assign emotional importance to the animals we eat. I love my dog, I eat my dinner. See, we're complex us humans. Our emotional intelligence allows us to be Machiavellian when it suits. I'm fine with that, I don't subscribe to a binary view of the world that says if I care about some animals I must care for all of them. It's a simplistic view that doesn't interest anymore than some head the ball yelling murderer at me as I enjoy my dinner.

Well no offense, but that's pretty much the worst attitude mankind can ever have, and the reason for why we have so much suffering in the world, both humans and animals. People caring only for their own, not giving a toss if their actions impact others, turning a blind eye to the misery of multitudes because they don't want to be discomforted in any way. And then these same people will undoubtedly believe themselves to be "progressive" or morally right. I mean it's black comedy, you either laugh or you cry.

LoTR

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I'd like to eat YOU!

Did you get the memo from the mayor of crazy town? He wants you to go sell crazy some place else... Something about us primative paddys not being ready for the veggie revolution!?

If you agree that humans are the priority over all others, then why try to deny us the food that we are biologically designed to eat?

So since you repeat that I am crazy, can I ask you again your opinion on the millions of people, including myself, who show that it is possible to live perfectly healthy lives and be vegetarian?

Like, what is your explanation of this?

A) All of us are lying, and are actually meat-eaters.

All of us are lying about being healthy, and are all sickly and weak.

C) Some of us are...mutants? Aliens? Ghosts? What?

It would be fascinating to hear your explanation for millions of people who, by your beliefs, and seemingly the beliefs of many others in this thread, are biological impossibilities.

Being lectured like little kids by some delusional yank, is not going turn everybody into veggie eating animal freedom fighters! lol

Many on here just seem to resent you. I actually admire your ludicrous level of commitment to this lost cause though - it's amusing and entertaining to watch!

I'm not American. And no, the masses are not going to turn vegetarian overnight. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was right when he said the arc of the moral universe is long. Pretty much every last moral issue that is widely accepted today was mocked and dismissed as much as many people here are doing.

jungleman

LoTR wrote: »

I'm not American. And no, the masses are not going to turn vegetarian overnight. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was right when he said the arc of the moral universe is long. Pretty much every last moral issue that is widely accepted today was mocked and dismissed as much as many people here are doing.

The masses aren't going to turn vegetarian, ever. Meat is fúckin' delish, man. Chicken - delish, beef - delish, lamb - delish, pork - delish. I'm sorry, Martin Luther King Jr II, but it's just never going to happen. And the ramblings you've been posting here for the last week aren't going to turn anyone towards vegetarianism.

CK73

Turkey is my thing more recently. Nice and lean and something to get your teeth into

traprunner

I still think this thread is one big joke.

Gandalph

If only there was something else above us in the food chain that ate self righteous vegetarians!

Acacia

Still a meat-eater (for now), however I did turn veggie for awhile after watching 'Earthlings', but I didn't plan it very well (I ended up just eating more carbs to feel full and spending money on Quorn as a meat substitute instead of learning how to make nice veggie/vegan meals)...

Anyhoo, I recently saw a very thought-provoking video by Gary Yourofsky (he does seem very extreme, though. I linked the video below for anyone that wants a gander) that raised some questions for me...

For example, Yourofsky asks in the video if we are truly meant to be meat-eaters would we not feel comfortable eating every bit of the animal, including the bum, eyelids, tail, whatever have you? But if you asked someone to hunt and eat a squirrel or cat, they'd think you are mad. An actual carnivore would have no problem doing it though.

Secondly, if you placed a baby in a room with an apple and a rabbit, it would in all likelihood eat the apple and play with the rabbit? Again not actual carnivore behavior.

Thirdly, and this issue was brought up in Earthlings too but not sure how I feel about it... some would argue that if we don't care about how other species are treated/killed for our use, then we are 'species-ist' (not a chance in hell of spelling that, correctly!) And in 'Earthlings' it is implied that this is basically the position that the Nazis held about the Jews, that they weren't worthy of life.... I get that's an extreme position, not sure if I agree with it myself, but thought I'd throw it out there!

TL:DR... think meat is yummy, but feel guilty eating said tasty animals. Will probably become at least vegetarian at some point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4

ThinkProgress

Acacia wrote: »

For example, Yourofsky asks in the video if we are truly meant to be meat-eaters would we not feel comfortable eating every bit of the animal, including the bum, eyelids, tail, whatever have you? But if you asked someone to hunt and eat a squirrel or cat, they'd think you are mad. An actual carnivore would have no problem doing it though.

Secondly, if you placed a baby in a room with an apple and a rabbit, it would in all likelihood eat the apple and play with the rabbit? Again not actual carnivore behavior.

Well, perhaps yourofsky didn't think of this: What if we gravitated towards meat because we figured out that it had tremendous benefits for our health, including making us physically stronger and creating greater brain development?

There is evidence that point to these being factors. That would explain why we don't actually enjoy the killing process - but we recognize that it's a necessary thing that we must do!

You can love meat and not love killing animals. Many of these extremists like the OP, try to convince us that we are all trying to hide our shame. And, unfortunately, many people get suckered by that twisted logic.

Don't feel ashamed of eating meat, it's natural and very good for you. We're omnivores!

traprunner

LoTR have you started lobbying TDs about getting this on the agenda for a referendum?

ThinkProgress

LoTR wrote: »

So since you repeat that I am crazy, can I ask you again your opinion on the millions of people, including myself, who show that it is possible to live perfectly healthy lives and be vegetarian?

Since you love repeating the same stuff over and over again, I'll ask you a question you've been dodging for a while now.

What will you and your kind do, when science discovers that all our potential food sources on this planet, are sentient - but not in the same way we understand in animals? (We're already well down this path btw)

What will you do then? Starve to death out of some misguided sense of righteousness? (serious question. I'm genuinely interested in your answer here)

Just admit it frodo, you enjoy how it feels to put yourself on a pedestal above all us other unenlightened souls!

You're not really here to help animals or promote the plant-based life style.
You're here to give yourself a little ego boost every now and then...

I'll leave you to it, because I'm totally bored with this thread now. It's well past it's shelf life at this stage!

blatantrereg

Acacia wrote: »

Still a meat-eater (for now), however I did turn veggie for awhile after watching 'Earthlings', but I didn't plan it very well (I ended up just eating more carbs to feel full and spending money on Quorn as a meat substitute instead of learning how to make nice veggie/vegan meals)...

Anyhoo, I recently saw a very thought-provoking video by Gary Yourofsky (he does seem very extreme, though. I linked the video below for anyone that wants a gander) that raised some questions for me...

For example, Yourofsky asks in the video if we are truly meant to be meat-eaters would we not feel comfortable eating every bit of the animal, including the bum, eyelids, tail, whatever have you? But if you asked someone to hunt and eat a squirrel or cat, they'd think you are mad. An actual carnivore would have no problem doing it though.

Secondly, if you placed a baby in a room with an apple and a rabbit, it would in all likelihood eat the apple and play with the rabbit? Again not actual carnivore behavior.

Thirdly, and this issue was brought up in Earthlings too but not sure how I feel about it... some would argue that if we don't care about how other species are treated/killed for our use, then we are 'species-ist' (not a chance in hell of spelling that, correctly!) And in 'Earthlings' it is implied that this is basically the position that the Nazis held about the Jews, that they weren't worthy of life.... I get that's an extreme position, not sure if I agree with it myself, but thought I'd throw it out there!

TL:DR... think meat is yummy, but feel guilty eating said tasty animals. Will probably become at least vegetarian at some point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4

I've researched this idea a bit. Another proponent of it is William Macy William Roberts, a cardiologist and editor of a cardiology journal. His observation is that the only animals that get heart disease are herbivores that eat animal foods or saturated fats. Humans get heart disease therefore he concludes we are herbivores. You can also find biological comparisons of us with herbivore/carnivore/omnivore animals, and the category we resemble the most is herbivore (the kind without the extra stomachs). Humans have been mainly vegetarian most of the time throughout history ("paleo" diets are definitely misnamed). Finally as you mention, we don't have an instinct to chase down cute furry animals and rip their heads off.

So there is a decent case for the idea. But I no longer think it's accurate. You could get all your essential nutrition living in the wild as a vegan - including vitamin B12 which I understand you would get from dirt on food. However (as I listed earlier) you would be missing a few non-essential but beneficial nutrients: DHA, carnosine and creatine. Also it would be difficult to satisfy above average protein requirements (needed if you're heavier than the average human (of either gender)).

We're not defined by a hunting instinct in the way a cat is, but we do have some hunting instinct. We do chase things, we play team sports, we enjoy throwing/firing things at targets. These all translate into natural hunting skills. We get sick if we eat too much meat and not enough vegetables, but small amounts of meat don't make people sick.

So I dont think we are herbivores, if you were to class us as a species. That said, we are perfectly capable of thriving on a vegetarian diet.

kylith

Acacia wrote: »

Still a meat-eater (for now), however I did turn veggie for awhile after watching 'Earthlings', but I didn't plan it very well (I ended up just eating more carbs to feel full and spending money on Quorn as a meat substitute instead of learning how to make nice veggie/vegan meals)...

Anyhoo, I recently saw a very thought-provoking video by Gary Yourofsky (he does seem very extreme, though. I linked the video below for anyone that wants a gander) that raised some questions for me...

For example, Yourofsky asks in the video if we are truly meant to be meat-eaters would we not feel comfortable eating every bit of the animal, including the bum, eyelids, tail, whatever have you? But if you asked someone to hunt and eat a squirrel or cat, they'd think you are mad. An actual carnivore would have no problem doing it though.

Secondly, if you placed a baby in a room with an apple and a rabbit, it would in all likelihood eat the apple and play with the rabbit? Again not actual carnivore behavior.

Thirdly, and this issue was brought up in Earthlings too but not sure how I feel about it... some would argue that if we don't care about how other species are treated/killed for our use, then we are 'species-ist' (not a chance in hell of spelling that, correctly!) And in 'Earthlings' it is implied that this is basically the position that the Nazis held about the Jews, that they weren't worthy of life.... I get that's an extreme position, not sure if I agree with it myself, but thought I'd throw it out there!

TL:DR... think meat is yummy, but feel guilty eating said tasty animals. Will probably become at least vegetarian at some point.

By that same logic if we were supposed to be vegetarians we would have no problem eating all parts of the plant but when's the last time you saw a vegetarian chowing down on cabbage stalks and turnip tops? Some things are just not nutritionally worth the effort of eating, especially when the more nutritious bits are easier to come by. Why would you waste energy cutting the eyelids off when you can carve out a steak with as much effort?

As for why we eat some animals and not others? Social conditioning. I happily eat offal and animals like rabbit, horse, snake, or crocodile. I'd happily eat squirrel or cat. I'd love to try grasshoppers. Feral cats are a major foodstuff for Australian Aborigines. Eyeballs are considered a delicacy in some cultures. The Chinese are famous for eating 'everything from a pig but the squeal'. They eat intestines, chicken feet, gizzards, and other stuff that would turn many people's stomach.

Many carnivores won't eat certain things unless they are really hungry; rabbits are too small for a lion to bother with, other carnivores are equipped with big teeth or claws and are more dangerous than herbivores.

Put a baby in a room with a rabbit and an apple and it may eat the apple, but how do you expect a baby to kill, skin, and cook a rabbit? And I guarantee that the baby will try put the rabbit in its mouth at some point. I've noticed with my own niblings that if you give them a plate of food - meat and veg - the meat will be eaten first. Ever heard of a kid not wanting to eat a burger? Ever heard of a kid not wanting to eat broccoli? Which dislike would you say is more prevalent?

kylith

blatantrereg wrote: »

His observation is that the only animals that get heart disease are herbivores that eat animal foods or saturated fats.

Untrue. Cats and dogs get heart disease.

traprunner

kylith wrote: »

Untrue. Cats and dogs get heart disease.

I used to have a dog that got leukaemia and then had a stroke. He couldn't eat, drink or move as a result and had to be put down.

Plryty

Acacia wrote: »

For example, Yourofsky asks in the video if we are truly meant to be meat-eaters would we not feel comfortable eating every bit of the animal, including the bum, eyelids, tail, whatever have you? But if you asked someone to hunt and eat a squirrel or cat, they'd think you are mad. An actual carnivore would have no problem doing it though.

Carnivores do not consume entire carcasses. They are selective in where they feast first on an animal too. Scavengers and animals which are in an extreme state of starvation will consume the rest.

Secondly, if you placed a baby in a room with an apple and a rabbit, it would in all likelihood eat the apple and play with the rabbit? Again not actual carnivore behavior.

This is a stupid argument full stop. If I put soap and an apple in a baby crib. The baby would probably eat the soap too. That doesn't mean I can make an argument against our eating pattern.
Human babies are rather unique of all mammals, in that we are born utterly defenceless for years. Apparently this is due to an off-trade in evolution, whereby a non ideal 9 months is pretty much the max amount of time a baby could be allowed develop in the human womb before killing the mother during birth due to size.

Thirdly, and this issue was brought up in Earthlings too but not sure how I feel about it... some would argue that if we don't care about how other species are treated/killed for our use, then we are 'species-ist' (not a chance in hell of spelling that, correctly!) And in 'Earthlings' it is implied that this is basically the position that the Nazis held about the Jews, that they weren't worthy of life.... I get that's an extreme position, not sure if I agree with it myself, but thought I'd throw it out there!


[YOTUBE]es6U00LMmC4[/YOUTUBE]

This point has some merit, in that a number of ww2 Jewish survivors themselves made the connection in how the systematic slaughtering of animals in slaughterhouses reminded them of their treatment at the nazi hands. However, there is obvious differences in the cognitive ability of humans compared to most mammals, to experience a wider degree of suffering (and self recognition). For eg, the Jews suffered considerable emotional torment on how their family could potentially end up dead.
A well designed slaughterhouse will cause minimal to no raise in stress levels of the cow or pig (chickens are slaughtered conscious), both for ethical reasons and to minimise injury to workers and animal.

It is easy to buy into the points yourofsky makes. The point he promotes isn't unreasonable, just that his arguments to build up to that point are questionable. Peter Singer the ethics professor does it far better in his well known short read "animal liberation" through sound arguments.

Plryty

"blatantrereg wrote: »

You can also find biological comparisons of us with herbivore/carnivore/omnivore animals, and the category we resemble the most is herbivore (the kind without the extra stomachs). Humans have been mainly vegetarian most of the time throughout history ("paleo" diets are definitely misnamed). Finally as you mention, we don't have an instinct to chase down cute furry animals and rip their heads off.

Omnivorism is a rather diverse grouping of eating habits. Compare say the diet of a bear to that of a human. A bear would fall closer to a carnivore, with supplementation of fruits. A human falls closer to a herbivore with supplementation of meats. Our ability to utilise meat as a food source & fermentation has allowed us to expand into northern territories such as North Europe, where winter holds very little edible plant matter. Certainly not enough to derive enough calories for survival.

So there is a decent case for the idea. But I no longer think it's accurate. You could get all your essential nutrition living in the wild as a vegan - including vitamin B12 which I understand you would get from dirt on food. However (as I listed earlier) you would be missing a few non-essential but beneficial nutrients: DHA, carnosine and creatine. Also it would be difficult to satisfy above average protein requirements (needed if you're heavier than the average human (of either gender)).

You cannot get B12 from dirt or any plant source. This is an outrageous argument some vegans have made to try show how a pure plant diet is naturally possible & how washing our veg is the reason why we don't get b12. The b12 is not in what is called a bioactive form in the soil. It is like how artificial low calorie sweeteners are sugars, they've the chemistry of sugars, the taste etc. but they are not in a bioactive form for our body to utilise them for energy. Vegan diets MUST supplement b12 or consume it through animal/insect produce.

They are also at far greater risk for nutritional deficiencies due to chelation factors binding minerals such as iron, zinc, magnesium. I have posted about this about 100 replies back

blatantrereg

Plryty wrote: »

Omnivorism is a rather diverse grouping of eating habits. Compare say the diet of a bear to that of a human. A bear would fall closer to a carnivore, with supplementation of fruits. A human falls closer to a herbivore with supplementation of meats. Our ability to utilise meat as a food source & fermentation has allowed us to expand into northern territories such as North Europe, where winter holds very little edible plant matter. Certainly not enough to derive enough calories for survival.





You cannot get B12 from dirt or any plant source. This is an outrageous argument some vegans have made to try show how a pure plant diet is naturally possible & how washing our veg is the reason why we don't get b12. The b12 is not in what is called a bioactive form in the soil. It is like how artificial low calorie sweeteners are sugars, they've the chemistry of sugars, the taste etc. but they are not in a bioactive form for our body to utilise them for energy. Vegan diets MUST supplement b12 or consume it through animal/insect produce.

They are also at far greater risk for nutritional deficiencies due to chelation factors binding minerals such as iron, zinc, magnesium. I have posted about this about 100 replies back

Agree with your description of human as being on the herbivore end of the omnivore spectrum.

Don't know about the B12 thing - inclined to think you're right about that - just repeating what I read and it wasn't an academic paper or anything like that. Absolutely modern vegans need to supplement with B12 directly or indirectly one way or another.

Western vegetarians/vegans aren't more likely than omnivores to be deficient in those minerals. Studies consistently show that they have levels as good or better than omnivores. Posted about that many pages back myself. Chelation isn't as big an issue as people think. Soaking/fermenting/kneading/leavening/cooking all reduce chelators. Phytic acid is accompanied by phytase which mitigates it.

Plryty

blatantrereg wrote: »

Agree with your description of human as being on the herbivore end of the omnivore spectrum.

Don't know about the B12 thing - inclined to think you're right about that - just repeating what I read and it wasn't an academic paper or anything like that. Absolutely modern vegans need to supplement with B12 directly or indirectly one way or another.

Western vegetarians/vegans aren't more likely than omnivores to be deficient in those minerals. Studies consistently show that they have levels as good or better than omnivores. Posted about that many pages back myself. Chelation isn't as big an issue as people think. Soaking/fermenting/kneading/leavening/cooking all reduce chelators. Phytic acid is accompanied by phytase which mitigates it.

The studies show that a vegetarian diet is perfectly capable of obtaining required essential nutrients in sufficient amounts, that is not debatable. However, they tend to fall towards the low end of normal levels & thus make them a group at higher risk for deficiencies in a number of minerals due to a number of factors. Chelation is an issue when the irish diet regularly consumes non-fermented foods like tea with meals which binds up these minerals, causing them to not be absorbed. Similarly antagonistic effects occuring between the absorption of calcium & iron can cause problems.

I'm not one for getting into a battle of posting studies, they're there if you want to read them by searching on pubmed "vegetarian minerals diet".

blatantrereg

Plryty wrote: »

The studies show that a vegetarian diet is perfectly capable of obtaining required essential nutrients in sufficient amounts, that is not debatable. However, they tend to fall towards the low end of normal levels & thus make them a group at higher risk for deficiencies in a number of minerals due to a number of factors. Chelation is an issue when the irish diet regularly consumes non-fermented foods like tea with meals which binds up these minerals, causing them to not be absorbed. Similarly antagonistic effects occuring between the absorption of calcium & iron can cause problems.

I'm not one for getting into a battle of posting studies, they're there if you want to read them by searching on pubmed "vegetarian minerals diet".

I might at some point. Studies I've seen have shown the opposite more often. I'm aware of the chelating effect of tea and also that calcium and iron compete for the same receptors. Calcium requirements/consumption is much higher than iron so it's the iron intake that is apt to suffer. Also vegetable iron sources are not as bioavavailable as animal sources but this can be significantly improved by consuming them with vitamin C.

Think you're right about the B12 thing. The main basis for the idea seems to be that algae produces vitamin b12, so unsanitised water contains it. However research suggests only saltwater algae produces a bioavailable form of it. There doesn't appear to be consensus about whether freshwater algae produces usable vitamin B12.

walkingshadow

I thought meat eating was decriminalized in 1996?

Wacker The Attacker

LoTR wrote: »

My dear Irish friends,

Seeing as you like referendums so much, and like "setting things right," I am just wondering when you will have a Yes/No referendum on whether brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings is something the Irish people will continue to support and strongly engage with, or stand up against?

Will the Irish be the first people in the world to criminalize the brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings (and purchasing such things)....or does the Irish people's definition of mercy not extend to other sentient beings?

When will this referendum be held? And what would you vote for? Will people one day gather with flags in Dublin Castle to celebrate the fall of brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings? Will one day the Irish people set an example for the world? Or will nothing ever convince you to open up your heart to those that cannot speak for themselves?

"Earthlings" with Joaquin Phoenix is a fantastic documentary about this issue.

EDIT: Since I can post things now, this video says more than I can possibly ever explain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBWDzkqEPY Please watch.

F*ck you. I'm off for a burger

traprunner

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

F*ck you. I'm off for a burger

I'm eating a beef curry right now. Lovely stuff!

Wacker The Attacker

traprunner wrote: »

I'm eating a beef curry right now. Lovely stuff!

Sure you cant beat a bit of meat