[Looking to buy a] Hybrid / Electric

pwurple

The multi-day test drive got us too. Your old car will feel like a noisy, stinky beast. Mine did.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

I do want it...

Only upgraded from a clapped out 206 last year to a 2012 308 which cost me €12k on top of the trade in, so I think this upgrade will sting me another €7k or so, but the savings on fuel should soften the blow. I currently spend about €190 a month on diesel.

I'm estimating that I'll only spend about €30 a month on electric.

Well you're certainly well within range of a single charge for your daily use.

In the end only you can decide what's best for you, as I said earlier, the MK II Leaf + other longer range electrics will be available in 2-3 years, so in time for a new lease or if you want to save the cash for a new deposit but your 308 will be worth a lot less by then.

Question you need to ask is if you can tolerate charging 2-3 times on a really long trip, slowing down, taking minor roads etc for those really long trips.

DrPhilG

How bad does motorway driving affect range?

My speed demon days are long gone but if I'm going to Belfast or Dublin I would still sit at 70 on the motorways.

For my annual Cork run I would be going via Dublin and again using the motorways. I don't kind stopping even for 4 charges each way. At the end of the day it's only about an extra hour, once a year and you'd need toilet/food breaks anyway.

DrPhilG

How do the lease options work? I haven't been able to find many details online.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

How bad does motorway driving affect range?

My speed demon days are long gone but if I'm going to Belfast or Dublin I would still sit at 70 on the motorways.

For my annual Cork run I would be going via Dublin and again using the motorways. I don't kind stopping even for 4 charges each way. At the end of the day it's only about an extra hour, once a year and you'd need toilet/food breaks anyway.

At about 130 Kph I reckon I'd need to be at the fast charger at 80 kms with maybe 10 kms left max. Moderate weather not summer but not freezing either, some light winds.

Really bad weather you'd need to slow down to about 80-100 Kph, really strong winds are hard on range.

The thing to remember is that fast charging is fastest to 80% and 10-80% is faster than 80-100. You don't want to be waiting past 80% because it's pointless unless you really need to.

So if you QC to 80% your next trip will be short 20% charge so you need to take this into account.

Driving at 100 Kph is actually not really going to cost you a lot of time where as charging from 80%-100% will.

100 Kph I could get I would say 130 Kms max so need to be at qc by 100 kms this is in winter. Summer will always give you more range. Warmer battery and usually less wind and less use of the heater. But wind and high speed are the range killer.

Hard acceleration is also going to reduce your range as well as speed. It's tempting to hammer the throttle in the Leaf with all that torque but it will cost you, great fun on back roads though when you don;t need to worry about range.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

How do the lease options work? I haven't been able to find many details online.

No details usually about PCP leases because the dealers want you to call in.

Best thing for me was to negotiate by e-mail so you have a record of everything.

Get about 3 PCP quotes with different mileages and deposits, this will give you a good idea. Try negotiate more Kms if you can.

With PCP you pay a deposit min of about 10% and you can pay more to bring the monthly payments down.

PCP is good if you don't want to own the car, especially owning an ev out of warranty, due to uncertainties though the leaf is very reliable if something goes wrong it will be very expensive to repair until a lot more 2nd hand parts become available.

PCP allows you to have 3 years to think about if you want to own the car or not after which you can decide to pay the balloon to own or refinance the amount owed. The Balloon is the GFV or guaranteed future value which is the value left in the car.

With PCP you pay interest + depreciation making your monthly payments a lot lower than taking out a loan for the full amount of the car.

If you go over the mileage usually a good few K they'll charge you 8C per KM which will come out of that GFV meaning less value in the car but also meaning you pay less to own. Excess mileage does not matter if you wish to own the car at the end.

If you want a new car then the garage will usually write off some of that excess mileage to get you into a new contract.

usually if your GFV is , say, 12 K you won't want to pay that and would rather put that into the new car meaning you shouldn't have a large deposit to pay again for the new PCP usually you have some equity built up in the old car going forward.

Get the garage to go through some figures and get them to explain everything in detail to you and before you sign the contract.

PCP can seem attractive to someone who may not have a lot of spare cash PM to spend on a full loan but they can get caught up with the balloon at the end and it could be the case they will sigh a new contract just because they can't afford to buy their way out at the end.

You do have the option to walk away but you loose everything you put into the car, say if you put 20K in you walk away with nothing. But it is a get out option if you can't pay at the end or even refinance the balloon.

I pay 458 PM for 25 K Kms per year or 75K Kms at the end. I put 5 K from the Prius.

If I would have got a bank loan I'd be paying around 750 PM. Difference is I would own it at the end.

DrPhilG

Nah pcp doesn't sound worth it then.

The lease payments would be just as much of a drop as the depreciation on buying one.

I was looking at a 14 reg in Belfast, 6k miles on it, for £13.6 which is about €18k. I'll get about €11k back on my current car so about €7k up front.

Going to try and sort a test drive over the weekend so I'll see how I fare over a days normal commute on Friday and then a wee run to Donegal town on Sunday.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Nah pcp doesn't sound worth it then.

The lease payments would be just as much of a drop as the depreciation on buying one.

I was looking at a 14 reg in Belfast, 6k miles on it, for £13.6 which is about €18k. I'll get about €11k back on my current car so about €7k up front.

Going to try and sort a test drive over the weekend so I'll see how I fare over a days normal commute on Friday and then a wee run to Donegal town on Sunday.

Yes, with your mileage you could get away with even a 2011 Leaf . Make sure it still has all 12 capacity bars. Yoou should be able to pick one up for about 10,000 Euro's and it would meet your daily driving for a long time. PCP suits me very well because I want the new leaf in 3 years with a minimum of twice the range.

It won't have 100% capacity so you really need the leaf spy app to get an exact indication of capacity left.

See the image below, bat stats shown in Ah or amp hours, this is the remaining capacity of about 66 ah. SOH is the state of health which in this case shows the battery has around 87% capacity left.

It's really essential to use this app when buying 2nd hand.

RedorDead

cros13 wrote: »

When I drive to Limerick and back I stop at the same place I used to stop with my diesel avensis. Have a coffee and a sandwich and my battery is back to 90% by the time I'm ready to leave. Obviously if you are doing that journey every day it's an imposition, but the majority of people don't. And the few that do will be catered for by the Tesla Model 3 next year.

Knowing where the chargers are isn't a big deal, all the EVs come with satnavs which update charger locations over built-in 3G modems. My i3 even shows if a nearby charger is already in use or not.



I've haven't done 1500km a day but I have done over a 1000 km to the netherlands both in a diesel and in an EV. Sure it took almost 4 hours longer in the EV, and sure it took a little more planning to make sure there were chargers along the route but even for such an extreme use case it was possible to make the journey. The whole journey also cost me less than €10 in electricity. I'm heading for the far side of Berlin in August. Poland is out because there's no rapid charger network in Poland.



Perfectly legitimate in your case. But for the OP doing less than 30km round trip commute, living within 10km of two rapid chargers and having even their occasional trips also covered by rapid chargers, I can't think of a reason not to go for a full EV.



Nope. And it costs €33k, so more than an i3 for a Plug-in Prius with a weak motor and 15-20km of range.

Problem i would have with them is what happens if you pull into your usual charge point and there is one car charging in front of you and another waiting or if there is an ICE car blocking charging point as happens alot.

You add a lot of time to your journey having to compromise using an EV. I think currently until battery and infrastructure catches up PHEV is a much more viable option for most customers - especially Dr Phil G.

BMJD

cros13 wrote: »

The batteries aren't toxic. I think you may be confusing lithium ion (every EV) with Nickel Cadmium (Prius). Nickel Cadmium is toxic, Lithium Ion isn't.

the batteries in a Prius are NiMH

NiMH provides 40 percent higher specific energy than a standard NiCd, but the decisive advantage is the absence of toxic metals.

The Prius Plus and Prius Plug-In already use lithium ion batteries, and the next generation Prius will too.

RedorDead

DrPhilG wrote: »

How bad does motorway driving affect range?

My speed demon days are long gone but if I'm going to Belfast or Dublin I would still sit at 70 on the motorways.

For my annual Cork run I would be going via Dublin and again using the motorways. I don't kind stopping even for 4 charges each way. At the end of the day it's only about an extra hour, once a year and you'd need toilet/food breaks anyway.

Am hoping this is mph and kph?

DrPhilG

RedorDead wrote: »

Am hoping this is mph and kph?

Sorry, I always talk in miles.

I drive at about 70mph on the motorway. I used to do 90 in my young stupid days.

Yes waiting at charge points while someone insists they want close to 100% can be a pain in the arse, even though it's quicker to charge to 80% and drive on you will have inconsiderate assholes who will do what they want.

I am hoping the ESB upgrade the firmware to prevent charging over 80-85% absolute max. The fast chargers and Nissan designed the car to only be fast charged to 80% !

The ESB have also on their FB page said that the fast chargers are supposed to be used for 30 mins. But still should switch off after 80% regardless.

One reason I didn't take the Leaf to Kerry and took the diesel.

I know some people don't like to borrow a car there is always the option to rent. I'd have no problem going back to my Nissan dealer asking to rent a car for a couple of days.

I can borrow from a family member if I needed.

The cost of these chargers needs to come down before garages will start buying them, there's also the cost of installation and in order to make a profit they would probably need to charge a lot to use them, they probably would anyway.

All the charge points around now ar 50 Kw max, if the Leaf II in 3 years could charge at 100 Kw I doubt many chargers would be upgraded.

DrPhilG

This is a mix of questions, and a checklist for me (if) I go ahead and purchase a Leaf.

1 - I need to look for a second gen model. Slightly better battery performance and generally slightly improved overall from gen 1.

2 - I know I could go with an older one, but I'd prefer to keep it within 2 years old. Give me a little warranty still on the car for peace of mind. I'm thinking mid 2013 at the oldest.

3 - I need to check out the car before I hand over anything, to make sure that the battery performance is still up to scratch, all 12 bars etc.

4 - I've read that the car comes with 2 options, a 3.3kw or 6.6kw charging option. Is it worth trying to find the higher power? How can I tell, is it identified anywhere on the car?

5 - I see a few people online commenting on hiring an ICE car from Nissan on occasion when needed. I know the UK have a package for this, Care-ev. I'm assuming that it's for new buyers only though?

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

1 - I need to look for a second gen model. Slightly better battery performance and generally slightly improved overall from gen 1.

The Gen 1.5 has lots of little minor changes and two big ones, the heat pump and battery chemistry change. The handling is a little better on the 1.5 as suspension etc. is tuned for Irish roads instead of pancake smooth japanese roads. The boot on the 1.5 is also bigger by 40L.

DrPhilG wrote: »

3 - I need to check out the car before I hand over anything, to make sure that the battery performance is still up to scratch, all 12 bars etc.

I'd buy a bluetooth OBDII dongle and get Leaf Spy on your phone. Get the car to tell you exactly what the battery status is.

DrPhilG wrote: »

4 - I've read that the car comes with 2 options, a 3.3kw or 6.6kw charging option. Is it worth trying to find the higher power? How can I tell, is it identified anywhere on the car?

Since you are buying 2nd hand you might as well try to find a 6.6kw. On the little drive computer in the middle of the dials it shows two "time to charge indicators" on the 6.6:

DrPhilG wrote: »

5 - I see a few people online commenting on hiring an ICE car from Nissan on occasion when needed. I know the UK have a package for this, Care-ev. I'm assuming that it's for new buyers only though?

Yup only for new buyers. BMW have a similar program for my i3 where I get an annual allocation of points to borrow anything from a 1 series to an X5 for a couple of days.

positron

Looking to change soon-ish, and doing some reading on what to get next, Leaf is topping the list from EV experience point of view. It suits our range / needs, especially with the Care-EV options and the of course we could borrow an ICE car from family if we need to (unsure how insurance would work out in that scenario though..).

I personally would prefer an estate type car, with a lot of room in the boot, however wife thinks something tall would be nice for car seats, and for all the running around the town (80% of the time). With this is mind, the ideal car would be Kia Soul EV. However Kia won't sell it here and 2014 used models are asking 20k sterling in the UK.

Nissan's EV van (e-NV200?) could be nice given how proven Leaf platform is, but that too looks very expensive when configured with seats (saw UK prices listed at honestjonh.co.uk) and looks pretty utilitarian.

Again, such a shame Kia Soul EV isn't locally sold, is so expensive. Almost tempted to keep the current car / upgrade to an estate for couple of more years to wait and see how the market evolves... I wonder what Hyundai and others will bring to market in next couple of years... )

DrPhilG

Well, 2 day test drive booked for tomorrow. Collecting Tuesday evening, returning Thursday evening.

The one I'll be taking is a gen 1 Leaf, but I've already told the salesman that I'm not buying it, although I would be interested in a different one, provided he can get me one under 2 years, next gen, in a dark colour, with around 15k max.

He called back to say that he might have a black gen 2 Leaf with 17k miles, that he "would be able to work with me on price". Time will tell, but I'll get the test drive sorted first anyway. I gave him an example of a car being sold by another dealer an hour away at a good price so hopefully that will make him work a bit harder.

There's a grey 2014 in Belfast with only 6k miles for £13,600. The local guy has been quoting me around that price for a 2013 one with double the miles.

cros13

Make sure to borrow a card for the public charging from the dealer.

DrPhilG

cros13 wrote: »

Make sure to borrow a card for the public charging from the dealer.

On that note, how does the public charging work? Are they all free?

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

On that note, how does the public charging work? Are they all free?

Yes all free, but don't get too fond of it. The charge points are to be used when you really need them, it's not fair to tie up a charge point when you can charge at home. It's a really cheap car to run so charging at home is also cheap.

I'm sick to death of Locals charging at the Naas fast charger while they go shopping for an hour. This is not the purpose of the chargers and it ties up valuable resources for those who need them.

By all means go to the chargers when there is no one around, I do this in Carlow Town and if someone pulls up I unplug and go home. I live only 10 mins from the charge point.

positron

positron wrote: »

Again, such a shame Kia Soul EV isn't locally sold, is so expensive. Almost tempted to keep the current car / upgrade to an estate for couple of more years to wait and see how the market evolves... I wonder what Hyundai and others will bring to market in next couple of years... )

Yes Kia Ireland are idiots, they could at least advertise it on their website and allow people to make a decision whether they want it or not and not have the decision made for them all because Kia Ireland don't want to provide support for electrics or spend money on training and equipment.

No point importing one from the U.K because if you have a problem with it Kia dealers will tell you to go back where you bought it !

The Soul EV would mean I don't have to charge to get home.

positron

Deleted User wrote: »

No point importing one from the U.K because if you have a problem with it Kia dealers will tell you to go back where you bought it !

Roadside Motors near Derry sells them. They have a second hand one for sale at the moment, 2014 model, asking 20K.

But unlike Nissan with Leaf, Kia has Soul EV fitted with poor stuff inside, which makes it even poor value (ICE Soul can be upgraded to nice leather seats etc).

The soul EV comes with optional leather with heated and cooled seats !

DrPhilG

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes all free, but don't get too fond of it. The charge points are to be used when you really need them, it's not fair to tie up a charge point when you can charge at home. It's a really cheap car to run so charging at home is also cheap.

No danger. Probably the only time I use a charge point when I'm out will be out of necessity. I'm taking the loaner up to Letterkenny tonight, so from collection to Letterkenny and then home will be around a 60 mile trip.

I was going to use the fast charge at Tobins in Letterkenny.

So if I get a loan of a charge card from the dealer in Derry, will that work with the charge station in the South?

pwurple

DrPhilG wrote: »

There's a grey 2014 in Belfast with only 6k miles for £13,600. The local guy has been quoting me around that price for a 2013 one with double the miles.

Be extremely careful with that kind of "too god to be true" deal, especially from the North. Run a CarTell report on it.

I was pretty close to buying a car from the north before, the CarTell report showed it had been crashed, and was an insurance write-off. Dealer was telling me it had perfect history.

Dealers in the north are notorious for it.

DrPhilG

123.ie just told me that they won't insure me fully comp on a Leaf!

WTF???

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

So if I get a loan of a charge card from the dealer in Derry, will that work with the charge station in the South?

The NI and RoI charging networks are one system run from Dublin. One card works on the lot.

DrPhilG wrote: »

123.ie just told me that they won't insure me fully comp on a Leaf!

WTF???

No idea, I had no issues getting fully comp. on the Leaf even when insured through 123.ie. In fact my insurance went down from my previous vehicle. Did you call the callcenter or try online?'Cause sometimes the online quote doesn't handle EVs well.

I'm insured with Aviva now, they have an extra 20% discount for EV drivers. They told me 7 different prices during one phone call, took my debit card details then called me back 15 minutes later to tell me that they'd reduced the premium by another €100.

Allianz were by far the cheapest for me and have fully comp no problem.

DrPhilG

Not sure what they're playing at.

The issue for me is that I had a bump in February. Not much damage done, but of course the other party is claiming personal injury. My renewal was in April, but they told me that because the claim was ongoing, it would be next year before my insurance took the hit.

Her car has been sorted (£1300) but the PI claim is still ongoing and could be for some time. I know I can't really shift companies until it is sorted, which is why I called 123.ie to see how much it would cost to change vehicle while staying with them.

The first few registration numbers I gave them, they told me that they could only offer 3rd party fire and theft cover. I asked why and got a blah blah speech about how every car is different etc. Eventually after moaning about it a bit, they agreed to offer me fully comp cover. But for an extra €950 on top of the €570 I paid at the start of April. I asked if the reluctance on cover, and the colossal price increase was due to my ongoing claim, but they claimed that it was not a factor.

My issue now is even more complicated.

If I change to the Leaf, I estimate that I will save about €1400 this year alone in fuel costs, which more than covers the insurance bump. But if this PI claim ends up settling for more than about €10k, many insurers will not touch me with a barge pole for 3-5 years which means that 123.ie can charge me whatever the hell they want and I can't shop around or change.

I'd still be saving some money changing to the Leaf, but nowhere near as much as I should be.

I called Zurich and they gave me some advice, although of course they couldn't quote me. But they did say that in general, EVs are comparable or even slightly cheaper to buy than ICE cars. So it seems certain that 123 are just abusing their position of power over me to extract a pound (or nearly €1000) of flesh.

I had a bit of a smack in the leaf last month, and in a similar positing regarding personal injury claim.

I'm just unfortunate that there was 2 in the car and they're both making a claim.

I was at a roundabout and they were in front of me and they went to move off and I looked right saw a gap and went and they had stopped in that instant and bang.

2100 for the leaf, bumper/spraying, re-enforcer and headlight repair.

The woman wasn't driving and got out of the car screaming abuse out of me "I'm going to sue " didn;t even check on the child in the back which would be the normal thing you'd do.

It was a very low speed collision 20 kph max.

It's hard to take this crap like I'm some kind of criminal, and this is part the reason why insurance rose last year and the fact insurance companies dropped prices too much the last couple of years.

The woman wasn't even driving, she got out of the car hurling verbal abuse at me, like I did it on purpose. Didn;t care about the husband (the driver) or the child in the back,

He was grand (**** happens kind of attitude I'm alright and that's all that matters)

They were driving an 05 Fiesta costing 2700 to repair I kid you not, they even got a brand new tailgate which had obvious pole damage but it was my fault, the leaf is bigger but it's not that tall to cause that damage.

It really annoys me that people can be so dishonest even though I have video evidence of them walking around with no bother it means absolutely nothing.

The courts have no balls to stand up to this and the insurance will settle in case the court awards more compo but there is the disgusting legal costs to take into consideration also.

This is driving costs up and compo claims are rising a lot and people should think of the over all impact that is, our premiums will increase and we are heading back to the bad o'l days !

My no claims discount protection means nothing, it just protects the discount, they will still screw you on the premium !!!