[Looking to buy a] Hybrid / Electric

DrPhilG

Thanks for all the replies, lots to consider.

Regarding the Leaf (which seems to be the top dog for pure electric), what are the advantages of that over the Ampera (which from my research looks like the top range extender type)?

To me the Ampera seems to make more sense simply because it gives similar benefits as pure electric in that it would cover all of my daily driving purely on the battery, while also giving me the petrol option when I have longer trips. I know the Leaf could do the job on electric with a little planning for charges etc but is it worth that extra planning if a range extender does the same job?

The Leaf certainly seems to be more available in Ireland although I wouldn't have a problem taking a trip to England and importing.

Bear in mind the Ampera is a 4 seater due to the ridiculous battery design and layout.

I couldn't justify carrying an engine for the few extra miles I need on electric that the fast charger can give me. 30-35 miles max ev range in the Ampera is not enough for me, not by a long shot. You also have to do normal maintenance on the engine.

If you have problems with the Ampera you'll most likely have to put it on the back of a transporter back to the U.K, I seriously doubt Opel in Ireland could fix it for you.

The prius plug in has a very small battery and not worth the premium, it costs a good bit more than the Leaf too !

I've the diesel to do the longer trips and I can borrow a car from a family member if I needed.

But it's whatever suits you.

Go take a Leaf for a test drive and see what you think.

biko

There are plenty reviews and customer feedback on youtube too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2Dt3KPg-UQ

Asmooh

DrPhilG wrote: »

Changing the car in the next year, and my wife really wants to go electric (for environmental reasons).

I don't think that electric is an option due to the range. Our general driving is just in and out to work, maybe 20 miles a day. But we do go on longer drives quite often, Donegal to Dublin or Belfast. And we go to Cork and back once a year. That's long oul trip to be doing in a car that can only manage 100 miles at best before needing a charge. We also have a fairly high annual mileage, about 18k.

I've read that when you're using the heat and lights, like in the winter when it's dark and cold, you might only get 60 miles.

I've also read that electric cars don't hold their value well, presumably due to the high costs of battery replacement. I read one review that said the Renault Zoe only retains 35% of their value after 3 years!

Any suggestions? I'm looking for an option that goes a bit of the way towards satisfying the "need for green", whilst remaining practical in terms of driving, and finance. No sense saving a few grand a year in fuel costs if the depreciation on the car is huge.

Thanks!

Does she know how much toxic those batteries have?
better for her to take the bike

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Bear in mind the Ampera is a 4 seater due to the ridiculous battery design and layout.

The 4 seats is not an issue for me. No kids. The boot is big enough for the dogs.

Its an odd layout, but it's very rare that I would have 5 in the car.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I couldn't justify carrying an engine for the few extra miles I need on electric that the fast charger can give me. 30-35 miles max ev range in the Ampera is not enough for me, not by a long shot. You also have to do normal maintenance on the engine.

The Ampera does 45 on EV. My daily commute is maybe 25 max if I go shopping or visiting people etc.

I've read in various reviews that regular maintenance is around €300 a year.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you have problems with the Ampera you'll most likely have to put it on the back of a transporter back to the U.K, I seriously doubt Opel in Ireland could fix it for you.

I live in Donegal and work in Derry. There's no shortage of Vauxhall dealers around the North.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've the diesel to do the longer trips and I can borrow a car from a family member if I needed.

Go take a Leaf for a test drive and see what you think.

Whatever I buy will be our only vehicle and I wouldn't be into borrowing a car.

Ill definitely test drive a Leaf out of curiosity but no matter how good a drive it is I still would be hesitant relying on the EV range only.

Thanks for your info, you seem to be the resident Leaf expert.

My mind definitely isn't made up, but currently the Ampera is ticking more boxes for me. Although the Leaf would be considerably cheaper.

Asmooh

How about Tesla Roadster for her?

DrPhilG

Asmooh wrote: »

Does she know how much toxic those batteries have?
better for her to take the bike

I've told her that. But general consensus from what I've read is that overall the electrics are slightly better environmentally even taking the battery production into account.

Green is her logic. Money is mine. If I can run an electric or hybrid on much less than the €200 a month I currently spend on diesel then I'm interested.

Asmooh

DrPhilG wrote: »

I've told her that. But general consensus from what I've read is that overall the electrics are slightly better environmentally even taking the battery production into account.

Green is her logic. Money is mine. If I can run an electric or hybrid on much less than the €200 a month I currently spend on diesel then I'm interested.

She might like the Tesla Roadster, electric, fast, cabrio and a "girls" car that you (as man) can still drive.

DrPhilG

Asmooh wrote: »

How about Telsla Roadster for her?

Don't the Tesla cars cost a bomb?

Based on selling my current car for around €12k I'm hoping to spend no more than €10k on top of that.

Hence my Ampera thinking.
£15k = €20k
VRT = €2k
Own car = - €12k
New car = €10k

Asmooh

DrPhilG wrote: »

Don't the Tesla cars cost a bomb?

Based on selling my current car for around €12k I'm hoping to spend no more than €10k on top of that.

Hence my Ampera thinking.
£15k = €20k
VRT = €2k
Own car = - €12k
New car = €10k

Well... I don't know if you want a car, a nice car, a fun car or just a car from A to B.

A to B cars are cheap, get a prius or so.
Nice cars are bit more sporty (Honda CR-Z)
a fun car is more expensive but way more fun, better looking and yes more expensive (Roadster)

No the Ampera has an EPA range tested to 30-35 miles max and in winter this will be less. The E.U test cycle is nothing more than a lab test, completely unrealistic of actual driving. Car's in Europe emit far more toxic emissions because of this farcicle test we emit a lot more toxic emissions than the E.U want to believe or want us to believe.

I'd certainly have no hesitations borrowing a car, or renting one. My opinion is to have a car that does most of my driving, I know people say they want a car that meets 100% of their driving needs, but it suits me to have the leaf for my 134-140 KM commute and it is a great car to drive regardless of it's green credentials. But this is my preference and I know the Leaf is not the car for everyone just like the ICE car is not for me for 98% of the time.

Again Co2 is not a pollutant and does not harm human health or the environment. The media fanatics have people brainwashed into thinking C02 is polluting and dirty, this is far from the case.

The current Gen Ampera has slightly more range.

No one suggests that battery production is environmentally friendly but Lithium for one only adds up to a small amount of the production of the battery and while the environmental impact of mining minerals for batteries is probably as bad as that for normal cars the battery car emits 0 emissions for it's life and the battery can be recycled at end of life and /or used for renewable storage.

If people don't like mining then I got bad news for you, mining is necessary for your car, your Ipad, Mobile, their batteries, your house wiring, your TV your central heating, your windows your washing machine, dishwasher, dryer, hair dryer, shaver, food blender, bicycle, clock, watch, the boat that brings all the goodies, the train, the plane that flies you to your holiday destination, your laptop, your PC, just think of all the wiring that makes the internet work or bring the wires that bring the electricity to your house, one could go on for a while at this.

EV batteries account for a tiny portion of the batteries produced, the rest is for gadgets.

we got a precious gift on this Earth and it's the minerals, fossil fuels, nuclear etc we have the power to use it and we have the power to abuse it, it's up to us to ensure what we do on this earth is done in a way that is good for the environment.

Just think of the people on slave labour wages to mine a lot of the minerals we need and to make the products we use ?

Look at the impact farming has on the planet and the total devastation to forests and natural eco system the chemicals pumped into the land, Ireland being a prime example with less than 1% of natural forest left and no one cares. All we do is plant some pine woods and call it forest, it's usually only planted to cut down again for money !

The fact the fuel to make electricity comes mainly from fossil fuels the fuel to refine petrol and diesel also comes from fossil fuels.

We have the option of 100% electricity from Airtricity, they will buy the equal amount you use in 100% renewable energy to offset what fossil fuel actually generates your electricity.

We can install our own domestic wind turbines and solar PV but there needs to be a governmental will for this which does not exist in Ireland.

Rather than spend the money on a plug in or anything else now why not wait the 2-3 years for the 200 + mile EV ?

cros13

Asmooh wrote: »

Does she know how much toxic those batteries have?
better for her to take the bike

The batteries aren't toxic. I think you may be confusing lithium ion (every EV) with Nickel Cadmium (Prius). Nickel Cadmium is toxic, Lithium Ion isn't. Lithium is an essential nutrient required for your brain to develop properly. They once considered adding it tap water and if you have your own well one of the major sources of the salts in the water is lithium salts like lithium carbonate. Lithium is one of the most common elements in the earth's crust and is well tolerated by every form of life. Either way the battery is heavily sealed to allow submersion in up to a meter of water.

DrPhilG wrote: »

The Ampera does 45 on EV. My daily commute is maybe 25 max if I go shopping or visiting people etc.

I've read in various reviews that regular maintenance is around €300 a year.

The quoted range for the Leaf is 200km, realistically that means 130-160km. Realistic EV range on the Ampera is 40-50km.

The real problem with the Ampera is that you won't have support from the vauxhall dealers. Production has stopped and it's RHD follow-on has been cancelled. They have to sell off all the Amperas in stock before August 31st because the thing doesn't even meet Euro 6 emissions standards. I'd see parts becoming a problem fairly quickly. If your regular journeys fit inside the EV range why do you need to carry around and maintain an ICE engine that you rarely use? The Ampera made sense in 2012 when rapid charging wasn't available.

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ill definitely test drive a Leaf out of curiosity but no matter how good a drive it is I still would be hesitant relying on the EV range only.

Get a 2-3 day test drive if at all possible. But remember that charging will be two to four times quicker when you get a proper charger at home instead of a household socket and range will be a little better once you get used to using the State of Charge meter instead of the Guessometer and get used to using the regen braking more.

From my experience range anxiety is something that is largely suffered by people who don't drive EVs. With your low mileage and nearby rapid chargers I don't foresee a problem. If Mad_Lad and myself don't have have a range issue doing double to triple your mileage and in my own case including trips to the UK and continental europe, why would you have an issue with a 25km commute and the odd trip to Dublin?

DrPhilG

How long does a charge take in a Leaf?

Going to Belfast or Dublin for example, I've had a look and you're are plenty of charge points. Assuming that I would need 1 charge mid journey, how long would that take?

In other words for the annual Cork trip, would 3-4 midway stops make it impractical?

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

How long does a charge take in a Leaf?

Going to Belfast or Dublin for example, I've had a look and you're are plenty of charge points. Assuming that I would need 1 charge mid journey, how long would that take?

In other words for the annual Cork trip, would 3-4 midway stops make it impractical?

You'd probably stop at the rapid charger in Monaghan on the way there there and on the way back. I've heard there might another rapid going in at castleblayney which might suit better as you'll have plenty of battery left by the time you get to Monaghan on the way down.

On average a rapid charge from 5-6% to 80-85% will takes 16-17 minutes (based on my own data). You would definitely need at least 3 rapid charges for the trip to Cork so that's going to be about an hour, maybe an hour and 10 minutes on to your journey. Personally I think that's acceptable if you're not doing the journey every day. On my trip to northern Holland I did 7 rapid charges in a row without any real issues.

In very cold weather maybe add another 5-10 minutes on to the first rapid charge as the battery charges a fraction slower due to increased resistance in the cold battery pack. That would not apply to subsequent charges during a trip as the battery is warmed up by the first charge.

When charging at home, with a 3.3kw charging unit in the car or a 16 amp charger on the wall (which is what you get free from ESB) it will take 7-8 hours for a completely flat battery to reach 100%. With a 6.6kw charger in the car and a 32 amp charger on the wall (which you'd need to pay ~€500-600 out of pocket to have fitted) it will charge from flat to 100% in 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hours. In reality your battery won't be flat when you get home and on your mileage you'll be back to 100% in two to three hours even on the 3.3kw.

DrPhilG

I take it the esb only fit a charger if you're buying new?

I was going to go second hand. Probably going down the route of N Ireland import.

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

I take it the esb only fit a charger if you're buying new?

I was going to go second hand. Probably going down the route of N Ireland import.

Correct, you'll have to pay for your own charger if you buy second hand. In that case there's no reason not to get a 32 amp charger as they cost the same as the 16 amp. Any electrician can install them it's just a matter of a cable to your distribution board.

This would be my favored charger (i have four chargers total, two of these, a ZCW and the ESB 16 amp):
http://nuworldenergy.co.uk/shop/ev-charge-points.html/home-charge-points.html/wallpod-ev:-homecharge-32amp-type-2-universal-socket

There's no VRT on a used Leaf so any prices would be directly comparable. It might even be slightly cheaper to get a used Leaf in Ireland because of the exchange rate.
An Ampera would also use the same charger.

DrPhilG

A 1 year old Leaf in the North is about £13k/€17.5k and no VRT.

A quick look on Autotrader.ie is showing a Leaf at 1 year old as around €19k?

Are there many variations in terms of models etc?

I'm test driving one briefly in the morning in Derry but I'm going to arrange a test over a few days next week.

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

A 1 year old Leaf in the North is about £13k/€17.5k and no VRT.

A quick look on Autotrader.ie is showing a Leaf at 1 year old as around €19k?

Are there many variations in terms of models etc?

I'm test driving one briefly in the morning in Derry but I'm going to arrange a test over a few days next week.

The main thing is not to go for the base XE trim (called Visia in the UK), it lacks the Rapid-Charge connector and the more efficient heat pump based a/c|heating.

If you have a car for the €4k scrappage you can get a brand new Leaf in SV (the mid-level trim) from a Nissan dealer in the republic for ~€19-20k.

DrPhilG

cros13 wrote: »

If you have a car for the €4k scrappage you can get a brand new Leaf in SV (the mid-level trim) from a Nissan dealer in the republic for ~€19-20k.

My current car is a 2012 Peugeot 308.

Lithium itself isn't toxic but a lot of the other ingredients in a battery are, then there is the chemicals in the electrolyte. Once the battery is sealed there is no risk to the environment. The risk is improper handling and disposal at end of life.

There's nothing wrong with the XE Leaf and most ordered by dealers will have the fast charge port.

The heatpump is very efficient but for a 20-50 mile daily mileage it isn't necessary but it's good to be as efficient as possible.

Obviously if the SV is affordable then go for that.

DrPhilG

I'm sure I'm being optimistic, but is the scrappage deal not open to abuse?

The terms and conditions only say that the vehicle must be Irish registered for 6 months before scrappage, and insured for 3.

Doesnt say it has to be insured in my name?

What's to stop me going out, buying an oul banger for a few hundred that has been driven for the last 3 months by someone, and then using it in the scrappage deal?

DrPhilG

Another question for electric drivers.

How much would you say you save per month paying for electricity rather than petrol or diesel?

And how does the insurance compare. Higher or lower?

pwurple

Scrappage terms also say valid nct and tax i think? But yeah, buy an nct'ed banger and wait three months. The only risk is that the scrappage might be gone.


My petrol bill per month was averaging 300 euro. I'm expecting that to be about 40 of electricity. I was driving a particularly ineffecient car though. Car tax Went from 636 to 120 per year.

Insurance came down (slightly, 5%, but I was mid contract, so renewal will tell more)

One of our local taxi people has a leaf. He charges it in the fast chargers. Tells me he saved ~8,000 euro in fuel last year.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Another question for electric drivers.

How much would you say you save per month paying for electricity rather than petrol or diesel?

And how does the insurance compare. Higher or lower?

My consumption according to the car is about 18 Kwh per 100 Kms, I wish they would calculate this in kms/kwh it would make it much easier to calculate the amount of Kms you can do per full charge of about 21 Kwh.

So roughly 18 Kwh (I don't drive like a granny) will cost 1.53 Board Gais 8.5 C per Kwh night tariff.

I've been doing more research on charger efficiency in the Leaf and it's seems to be around 90% efficient or very close so add 10% to 1.53 and that gives you 1.68 Euro's at my efficiency to do 100 Kms. Night tariff with Bord Gais.

531 Kms /100 = 5.31 (100 kms in 531 kms) multiply 5.31 x 1.68 (cost of leccy based on my efficency of 18 Kwh per 100 Kms) = 8.92 Euro

So that's roughly 8.92 Euro's to drive me to work 4 shifts. But I get about 8-10 Kwh per day at the fast charger so this cost is about 4-5 Euro's per 4 day week on shift. for about 531 kms. But this isn't including my run-a-bout driving. just work.

In the Prius at 60 Mpg this would cost 36.25 Euro's @1.45 per liter.

In the Prius including my work + non work driving I was spending about 55-60 Euro's a week on petrol.

Forgot to add when I charge during the day after night shift it will cost double lol. But I still save at the fast charger.

pwurple

I'm hoping my servicing costs will also plummet. Car was costing me a fortune in maintenance. Spark plugs, oil changes, exhaust systems, pistons... All that maintenance gone because there is no engine. It's a computer, a motor and some wheels.

DrPhilG

Had a test drive today in a Leaf, very impressed.

I've seen a few comments online that it's very easy to speed and I agree wholeheartedly. Drove up the road and I was at 70 before I realised!

I'm organising a longer test drive over a few days so I'll get a better taste next week.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Had a test drive today in a Leaf, very impressed.

I've seen a few comments online that it's very easy to speed and I agree wholeheartedly. Drove up the road and I was at 70 before I realised!

I'm organising a longer test drive over a few days so I'll get a better taste next week.

Big mistake, Now you want it hahahaha !!!

Great car alright.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Big mistake, Now you want it hahahaha !!!

Great car alright.

I do want it...

Only upgraded from a clapped out 206 last year to a 2012 308 which cost me €12k on top of the trade in, so I think this upgrade will sting me another €7k or so, but the savings on fuel should soften the blow. I currently spend about €190 a month on diesel.

I'm estimating that I'll only spend about €30 a month on electric.