[Looking to buy a] Hybrid / Electric

DrPhilG

Changing the car in the next year, and my wife really wants to go electric (for environmental reasons).

I don't think that electric is an option due to the range. Our general driving is just in and out to work, maybe 20 miles a day. But we do go on longer drives quite often, Donegal to Dublin or Belfast. And we go to Cork and back once a year. That's long oul trip to be doing in a car that can only manage 100 miles at best before needing a charge. We also have a fairly high annual mileage, about 18k.

I've read that when you're using the heat and lights, like in the winter when it's dark and cold, you might only get 60 miles.

I've also read that electric cars don't hold their value well, presumably due to the high costs of battery replacement. I read one review that said the Renault Zoe only retains 35% of their value after 3 years!

Any suggestions? I'm looking for an option that goes a bit of the way towards satisfying the "need for green", whilst remaining practical in terms of driving, and finance. No sense saving a few grand a year in fuel costs if the depreciation on the car is huge.

Thanks!

Oafley Jones

DrPhilG wrote: »

Changing the car in the next year, and my wife really wants to go electric (for environmental reasons).

I don't think that electric is an option due to the range. Our general driving is just in and out to work, maybe 20 miles a day. But we do go on longer drives quite often, Donegal to Dublin or Belfast. And we go to Cork and back once a year. That's long oul trip to be doing in a car that can only manage 100 miles at best before needing a charge. We also have a fairly high annual mileage, about 18k.

I've read that when you're using the heat and lights, like in the winter when it's dark and cold, you might only get 60 miles.

I've also read that electric cars don't hold their value well, presumably due to the high costs of battery replacement. I read one review that said the Renault Zoe only retains 35% of their value after 3 years!

Any suggestions? I'm looking for an option that goes a bit of the way towards satisfying the "need for green", whilst remaining practical in terms of driving, and finance. No sense saving a few grand a year in fuel costs if the depreciation on the car is huge.

Thanks!

I'm still not sure how green these cars are. How much of our energy comes from renewables in this country? Not even ten percent I'm guessing. The rest is still coming from fossil fuels. Then you've the little matter of the type of battery. Of which the mining and production can be absolutely toxic.

CiniO

DrPhilG wrote: »

Changing the car in the next year, and my wife really wants to go electric (for environmental reasons).

I don't think that electric is an option due to the range. Our general driving is just in and out to working, maybe 20 miles a day. But we do go on longer drives quite often, Donegal to Dublin or Belfast. And we go to Cork and back once a year. That's long oul trip to be doing in a car that can only manage 100 miles at best before needing a charge. We also have a fairly high annual mileage, about 18k.

I've read that when you're using the heat and lights, like in the winter when it's dark and cold, you might only get 60 miles.

I've also read that electric cars don't hold their value well, presumably due to the high costs of battery replacement. I read one review that said the Renault Zoe only retains 35% of their value after 3 years!

Any suggestions? I'm looking for an option that goes a bit of the way towards satisfying the "need for green", whilst remaining practical in terms of driving, and finance. No sense saving a few grand a year in fuel costs if the depreciation on the car is huge.

Thanks!

1. Electric car is not suitable for your driving. It could be great though as a second car I the family which never goes too far from home.

2. Buying electric car for environmental purposes is bit of a mistake. Nothing really environmental about them.

WildWater

It depends on many factors and the bottom line is they suit some people and not others. If it does suit then I think they are great. I plan on buying one the next time I change. But for us there are two cars in the household so we will have one ICE. The ICE car that the EV will replace does ~15k kms a year all of it short journeys. With current models I would get two days normal usage on a charge.


Anyway my advice is post in and browse this forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1634

Also check out the Irish EV owners club.

http://www.irishevowners.com/

Sorry I can be more helpful but I am not an EV owner (yet).

DrPhilG

CiniO wrote: »

2. Buying electric car for environmental purposes is bit of a mistake. Nothing really environmental about them.

Could you expand? My thinking behind considering one is the economical factor (if there is one). But my wife is interested because of the green factor.

DrPhilG

WildWater wrote: »

Anyway my advice is post in and browse this forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1634

Sorry, I missed that one!

CiniO

DrPhilG wrote: »

Could you expand? My thinking behind considering one is the economical factor (if there is one). But my wife is interested because of the green factor.

Simple maths...

I just looked at my recent electricy bill.
It said 371 KWh accounted for 198kg of CO2 emmisions.

So each KWh accounts for 533g (grams) of CO2 emmissons.

To fully charge your Nissan Leaf, you need to use about 24KWh, and this will give you 100-150km travel depending on various circumstances. Assume 125km on average for instance.

24KWh of electricity accounts for 12.8kg of CO2 emissions which gives you 102g/km in your electric car.

Plenty of petrol and diesel cars now doing much better than that.

Indeed, electric car is surely more environmentally friendly in it's direct surrounding as it doesn't emit anything, so it's great for driving in places where people live (f.e. in cities), but globally, considering producing electricity emits CO2 same as combustion engines, and it's very not environmentally friendly to manufacture those vehicles and their batteries, I wound't buy electric for environmental purposes.

Cinio, how much energy does it take to produce one liter of petrol or diesel? That is not included in the CO2 calculations of regular cars.

Anjobe

DrPhilG wrote: »

Could you expand? My thinking behind considering one is the economical factor (if there is one). But my wife is interested because of the green factor.

It is never "green" to buy a new car, as the environmental impact of manufacturing it offsets any advantage in lower emissions during the car's lifetime.

For EVs in particular, mining the metals (Ni, Li etc) for the batteries has a devastating local environmental impact, and while most of our electricity is still generated by burning fossil fuels it cannot be claimed that these vehicles have zero carbon emissions - it is just that their CO2 goes up power station chimneys rather than out of the car's exhaust pipe.

Thanks Cinio for the calculation, I had thought that electric cars were actually rather better than that on CO2 emissions!

Anjobe

Anjobe wrote: »

Thanks Cinio for the calculation, I had thought that electric cars were actually rather better than that on CO2 emissions!

According to this link a US gallon (3.8 liters) of fuel takes 6 kWh energy to refine.

http://greentransportation.info/guide/energy/electricity-to-refine-gallon-gasoline.html

According to Cinio's figures this results additional 6 x 533 g of CO2 emissions in Ireland for every 3.8 liters consumed. This is for petrol and I have not checked the numbers.

Special Circumstances

You can argue some benefit if there is a smart grid that can stop and start charging of EVs to suit spikes in supply (wind) or demand, or just to take up the "excess" from plants that are not practical to power down even at times when demand is at a minimum.

biko

Tbh OP, with your distance driving from Donegal you should look at Prius rather than any fully electric car.
At least until there are more charge points.

DrPhilG

biko wrote: »

Tbh OP, with your distance driving from Donegal you should look at Prius rather than any fully electric car.
At least until there are more charge points.

Thanks

A friend mentioned the Prius too. And the Vauxhall Ampera which I could buy in England for around £15k (2-3 year old) and the VRT would be just €2k.

The Ampera claims 25 miles on electric before needing the petrol aspect, which would be more than enough for my daily commute.

The Prius I think only offers about 15 miles on electric.

cros13

CiniO wrote: »

1. Electric car is not suitable for your driving. It could be great though as a second car I the family which never goes too far from home.

2. Buying electric car for environmental purposes is bit of a mistake. Nothing really environmental about them.

1. Wrong, I do 50,000km a year on an electric car. DrPhilG's usage is on the low side of existing EV owners. There are rapid chargers all over the country, you can charge 0-80% in 15-20 minutes. If you want to drive from Cork to Tromsø, Norway in the morning on a whim it's perfectly possible. Range on the Leaf is 130-160km depending on weather and it's possible for people to do up to 400km+ a day on an EV in regular use.

2. The primary reason to buy an EV is for financial reasons, they are 8 times cheaper than a diesel car to run. They are also a damn sight nicer to drive than a slow and noisy ICE (massive torque from 0 rpm, better weight distribution). There is an emissions benefit, because the motors are so efficient it's about half the emissions of an equivalent vehicle including all grid production emissions and losses. The batteries are produced very cleanly, lithium mining is one of the cleanest extraction processes there is. And the batteries are almost 100% recyclable and reusable for grid storage for several years before they need to be recycled.

I guarantee if you drive an EV for a week you'll never think of buying an ICE again.

By the end of this month there will be FIVE rapid chargers in Donegal alone. and a further 50 fast chargers. I've driven to letterkenny from dublin and back without any issues.

The Zoe has depreciated heavily due to other factors, mainly that they come with a mandatory indefinite battery rental contract. Depreciation on the Leaf has been a lot lower, even though the retail price of a new Leaf has come down by 7 grand in the period.

There are a ton of new rapid chargers going in on the west coast this year as part of ESB's expansion of the network. Stopping at a rapid charger every 120-130km isn't a big imposition, you will probably be stopping for a coffee or toilet break anyway.

DrPhilG

I live in Donegal, but right on the border. Bridgend/Burt. I commute to Altnagelvin hospital daily which is 9 miles.

I'm still learning towards the hybrid option but I have a lot more reading up to do.

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

I live in Donegal, but right on the border. Bridgend/Burt. I commute to Altnagelvin hospital daily which is 9 miles.

I'm still learning towards the hybrid option but I have a lot more reading up to do.

My dad drives a Leaf and does 80km round trip from Templemore to south Tipp every day, he arrives home every night with 40-50% still on the battery. The worst he saw was 35% in the worst winter temperatures with the cabin heater on full. If he suddenly needs to go to Dublin he just pops in to the rapid charger at Roscrea or Portlaoise or Monasterevin or Naas on the way. There are people here on boards who commute more than 100km every day in a Leaf.

People forget that since you are charging at home, you start every day with a full battery. it's easier than a petrol/diesel car, you just plug in every night and provided you are not doing more than 130-160km that day you never have to think about it.

If you drive more than 120km in the day there are rapid chargers on Port road, Letterkenny and one in Waterside in Derry if you need a top up. Both will charge a Leaf 20-25% for every 5 minutes of charging. Both are free and work with the ESB card.

I drive a BMW i3, I get 180km range with that kind of low speed driving (i.e. not 120 on a motorway) out of an 18kWh charge, that costs me less than €1.40 on the night rate. In a car that out-accelerates a BMW M3 and is more fun to drive.

I've been driving an EV for more than a year now and I can't understand why 95% of people haven't switched.

biko

DrPhilG wrote: »

The Prius I think only offers about 15 miles on electric.

Well in a sense. The electricity is just for town or short distances. Once you're on open road the fuel motor takes over.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car6.htm

CiniO

cros13 wrote: »

1. Wrong, I do 50,000km a year on an electric car. DrPhilG's usage is on the low side of existing EV owners. There are rapid chargers all over the country, you can charge 0-80% in 15-20 minutes. If you want to drive from Cork to Tromsø, Norway in the morning on a whim it's perfectly possible. Range on the Leaf is 130-160km depending on weather and it's possible for people to do up to 400km+ a day on an EV in regular use.

It could be even 100,000km a year, but IMO driving anywhere further from your home than range allows to, would be very inconvenient.
You need to know where to charge it, and as you say wait there.
While obviously all this is possible, I hardly can imagine longer drive in EV like you mentioned to Norway.
I drive my diesel between Ireland and Poland at least once or twice a year, and there are no trouble with that. But I can't imagine doing that in EV - it would be really very very inconvenient and would take ages. In diesel there's no trouble to do 1500km a day or more - you can't do that in EV.

Don't get me wrong - I love the idea of EV, and would be very happy to get one myself, but at the moment I can't afford it.
But if I could, that would be as a second car (would substitute petrol car we have now) and would never go further than 50-60km away from home.
That makes sense.

Benny_Cake

I drive a Nissan Leaf and I find it to be a terrific car. It's quiet, responsive and extremely cheap to run. I don't think that going from Donegal to Dublin or Belfast should pose any major issues. For Cork, you could do it but you'd have a fair few stops. If you're only doing the trip once a year I wouldn't let that put me off. I went from Naas to Cork and back again on the May Bank holiday, it cost about €2 to charge the car at home and the rest of the trip was effectively free thanks to the public charging network. The BMW i3 and Renault Zoe are excellent too.

If the thoughts of going all-electric are off putting, the the Prius is a fine car by all accounts. I wouldn't bother with the plug-in version though (is it even available in Ireland?).

cros13

CiniO wrote: »

It could be even 100,000km a year, but IMO driving anywhere further from your home than range allows to, would be very inconvenient.
You need to know where to charge it, and as you say wait there.

When I drive to Limerick and back I stop at the same place I used to stop with my diesel avensis. Have a coffee and a sandwich and my battery is back to 90% by the time I'm ready to leave. Obviously if you are doing that journey every day it's an imposition, but the majority of people don't. And the few that do will be catered for by the Tesla Model 3 next year.

Knowing where the chargers are isn't a big deal, all the EVs come with satnavs which update charger locations over built-in 3G modems. My i3 even shows if a nearby charger is already in use or not.

CiniO wrote: »

While obviously all this is possible, I hardly can imagine longer drive in EV like you mentioned to Norway.
I drive my diesel between Ireland and Poland at least once or twice a year, and there are no trouble with that. But I can't imagine doing that in EV - it would be really very very inconvenient and would take ages. In diesel there's no trouble to do 1500km a day or more - you can't do that in EV.

I've haven't done 1500km a day but I have done over a 1000 km to the netherlands both in a diesel and in an EV. Sure it took almost 4 hours longer in the EV, and sure it took a little more planning to make sure there were chargers along the route but even for such an extreme use case it was possible to make the journey. The whole journey also cost me less than €10 in electricity. I'm heading for the far side of Berlin in August. Poland is out because there's no rapid charger network in Poland.

CiniO wrote: »

Don't get me wrong - I love the idea of EV, and would be very happy to get one myself, but at the moment I can't afford it.
But if I could, that would be as a second car (would substitute petrol car we have now) and would never go further than 50-60km away from home.
That makes sense.

Perfectly legitimate in your case. But for the OP doing less than 30km round trip commute, living within 10km of two rapid chargers and having even their occasional trips also covered by rapid chargers, I can't think of a reason not to go for a full EV.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I wouldn't bother with the plug-in version though (is it even available in Ireland?).

Nope. And it costs €33k, so more than an i3 for a Plug-in Prius with a weak motor and 15-20km of range.

browniepoints

Me I dont give a rats a$$ about the electric environmental debate its a load of dung .

I would buy electric or hybrids tomorrow if the credit card could take the hit

For me it has nothing to do with environmental reasons .
The same driving needs factors and reasons why I would buy electric or hybrid would be the reasons I can say it is most unlikely the electric or hybrid in this time is any use for your driving needs .
My style of driving would make electric and hybrids work well for me with big drop in my costs to drive per mile However my style is not your style

Now if you want real environmental reasons I can give you those .
Every time you turn on petrol cars for the first fifteen minutes the CAT doest clean up the fumes and nasty benzines and all sorts come out the exhaust that can create birth defects to the fetus, or spontaneous abortions to pregnant women who breath in these fumes.Also it can do or brain damage to kids in car .

If your pregnant going to petrol stations and filling up the fumes are not good .If the kids are in the car while car is filling up the fumes are not good . To fill up cars safely means arrive in petrol forecourt in fire mans suits to keep chemicals off you and breathe through oxygen bottle and leave family at home . Then clean down the fire man suit when you get home in the front garden with power hose over the main drains and send the nasty chemicals to some local river instead .


However electric cars dont stop the problem they just shift the chemical brew of nasty chemicals from fuels like oil or coal from the city into the country side .The mercury from burning fuel like coal in power station to supply the electric power to the electric car goes into the food chain in the country side. Its probably in the milk in your tea so it gets you back a few months later

When your in electric or petrol car all the plastics in the cars for seats dash boards you name it give off nasty fumes that can cause cancers and all sorts. If you open the windows to get rid of the fumes the cars beside you with cats not hot then can expose you to unburned petrol fuels .The diesel cars and trucks can also expose you to small particle soot which give cancers and all sort

Even you buy a bike your still gonna be exposed to fumes from cars and trucks
So the environmental reason to buy electric is a crock of dung

However if your like me do lots of small trips less than 5 miles spread over the day 20 miles then small electric go cart things like Renault twingo are good to go and cheap as chips on electric .However no closing windows so you need to be motor bike type with leathers and so forth to do Ireland and twingo .

The hybrids you need to do something like 50,000 miles a year to to get your money back and maintenance on those things can be eye watering numbers

The present Leafs Zoes and similar are just too low ranges for your long trips away .However these things are cheap as chips on maintenance and fuel can be free if you always do fast charging .
However the word is out the battery range drops a lot after short few years for many of the Leafs and Zoes
This can result in the depression can be issue if your panning on resales in few years .
If you do small local miles keep the electric cars ten years your way ahead of the game driving is cheap cheap cheap.
If you could do Leaf car for local stuff and old banger petrol or diesel for long runs then the Leaf or Zoe could work for you .You might need two car parking spaces to do that two insurance policies and extra car tax the CIE train might be better for longer journey's

The new petrol and diesel cars in terms of real good MPG which are so good the electric cars will have rough ride for the next few years .


Personal I aways tell women go a garage where the staff fuel the car to reduce risks from fumes go inside shop before they fuel up and try to not fuel up with kids in the cars .better still send the other half to fuel the car and let him get the chemical attacks . You can do risk reduction but you cant stop all exposure to nasty chemical soups we live in

Jed

cros13

browniepoints wrote: »

However electric cars dont stop the problem they just shift the chemical brew of nasty chemicals from fuels like oil or coal from the city into the country side .The mercury from burning fuel in power station to supply the electric power to the electric car goes into the food probaly the milk in your tea so gets you back a few months later

That's not really true, electric cars do reduce emissions because the electric motor is 95% efficient where an ICE is less than 25% efficient (petrol or diesel cars spend a lot of their fuel generating heat rather than moving you along the road). A combined cycle electric power plant has heat recovery systems and operates at more than twice the efficiency of an car engine. Centralising the problem makes it easier to solve. Better emissions control is already in place at power plants. All of that is discounting the fact that yesterday (13th of May | and according to Eirgrid's dashboard statistics) more than 51% of power was produced from the wind turbines and hydro plants. I did the math a couple of years back on a RAV4 petrol vs RAV4 EV and even assuming 100% coal produced electricity there was a reduction in emissions.

browniepoints wrote: »

When your in electric or petrol car all the plastics in the cars for seats dash boards you name it give off nasty fumes that can cause cancers and all sorts .

That's not proven. And even discounting that, my car dash is made out of Kenaf fibers (basically hemp) and untreated sustainably managed eucalyptus wood. On the base model the seat material is made out of recycled PET bottles, On mine leather tanned with olive oil. The carbon fiber that makes up the frame was made in the Moses Lake facility beside a massive hydro plant and the factory in germany that did the final build was 100% powered by solar and wind. Heck the roof and seat backs are made from the offcuts from manufacturing the frame.

browniepoints wrote: »

However if your like me do lots of small trips less than 5 miles spread over the day 20 miles then small electric go cart things like Renault twingo are good to go and cheap as chips on electric .However no closing windows so you need to be motor bike type with leathers and so forth to do Ireland and twingo .

There are windows available for the NMC/Twizy, both from Nissan/Renault and better ones from this guy in scotland: http://www.twizywindows.co.uk/

browniepoints wrote: »

The present Leafs Zoes and similar are just too low ranges for your trips away .

That's not true.

browniepoints wrote: »

However these things are cheap as chips on maintenance and fuel can be free if you always do fast charging.

That is true. But always rapid charging would be a very stupid idea. A rapid charge can raise the battery temperature by 10C on a Leaf, rapid charge when you need to but don't rely on it for all your charging.

browniepoints wrote: »

However the word is out the battery range drops a lot after short few years for many of the leafs and Zoes This can result depression can be issue if your panning on resales in few years

Battery capacity loss has been far less than predicted. You have a battery warranty for 8 years/160,000km guaranteeing a minimum of 70% capacity. Three vehicles out of more than 40,000 sold in europe have claimed. On the Leaf it's mainly an issue in very hot climates or with abusive rapid charging. On the i3 I have active battery thermal management and an expected life of twenty years to 70% capacity. NRC have a Leaf in Dublin running as a Taxi since 2011, it has 210,000km on it and has lost less than 11% of battery capacity. Old Leaf batteries are reused for a grid energy storage project on a Japanese island.

NIMAN

That Ampera is a nice looking yoke, and I would probably consider it if it wasn't for the fact that there's only 2 back seats and I'd need 3.

For every tank of fuel refined is enough to drive a Leaf about 70 miles, this is not taking into account the massive amounts of fuel needed to extract and transport the oil before it even arrives at the refinery.

Electric car mining is no different to ICE in reality and All of Japan's minerals come from their own well regulated mines not the Chinese ones that destroy the natural environment, though this is changing there , slowly.

Tesla don't even use magnets in their electric motors.

Electric cars being 0 emissions are far better for the environment and human health because the emissions are not spread out in town and cities and directly ingested into our lungs. Diesel fuel is dangerous to human health. Co2 is not, Plants absorb Co2 and need it for photosynthesis , Co2 is not a pollutant, what comes out of an exhaust is.

My electricity is generated by clean Gas mostly and about 25% wind. Whatever the Co2 emissions are I could care less about, I care more about lung cancer and heart disease and acid rain and the damage caused by drilling for oil and oil consumption.

Electrics are also much more efficient than the internal combustion engine, open the bonnet after a long drive and try find heat in a Leaf !

Batteries will live on in storage.

Leaf uses a lot of recycled materials and the carpet is made from recycled plastic bottles ( and it shows) :-)

Electrics can store renewable energy that has to otherwise be switched off, this is when our tax money goes to subsidise these companies !

Electric cars can charge on the fuel used to keep the power stations ticking over to be ready for demand.

I could choose to have Airtricity and have 100% 0 emissions but I was not willing to pay more for the energy because I already have to subsidise these wind energy companies , we were promised all this wind energy would make bills cheaper but they have gone up considerably. I might change my views on this in the future.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

I don't think that electric is an option due to the range. Our general driving is just in and out to work, maybe 20 miles a day. But we do go on longer drives quite often, Donegal to Dublin or Belfast. And we go to Cork and back once a year. That's long oul trip to be doing in a car that can only manage 100 miles at best before needing a charge. We also have a fairly high annual mileage, about 18k.

I will be doing about 25 K a year possibly more in my Leaf.

I do about 134-140 Kms per day, I need about 10 mins on the fast charger, could do with less but I don't want to arrive home with a very low battery daily to preserve battery life.

We have a 2nd car for the long trips which is also useful to keep the miles off the Leaf for the PCP contract.

Long trips can be done but would be a pain. I't rent a car for the 2% of the time the Leaf would not meet my needs if it were our only car. I could also borrow a family members so I wouldn't be worried.

I have a car that meets 98% of my driving.

DrPhilG wrote: »

I've read that when you're using the heat and lights, like in the winter when it's dark and cold, you might only get 60 miles.

Yes, when cold the battery can't take a full charge and cold air is denser taking more power to force through it.

Drive at 140 Kph and you could be looking at 80 Kms max in winter.

Wind is your greatest enemy, the heater with the heat pump in the SV and SVE leaf is very efficient.

DrPhilG wrote: »

I've also read that electric cars don't hold their value well, presumably due to the high costs of battery replacement. I read one review that said the Renault Zoe only retains 35% of their value after 3 years!

The Leaf holds it's value better than all but the premium car brands as expected but not by much less.

DrPhilG wrote: »

Any suggestions? I'm looking for an option that goes a bit of the way towards satisfying the "need for green", whilst remaining practical in terms of driving, and finance. No sense saving a few grand a year in fuel costs if the depreciation on the car is huge.

Thanks!

You could wait 3 years and the Leaf Mk II will be available with a minimum twice the range and possibly more.

In 2017 GM are releasing the "200" mile range Bolt, also worth checking out. Though I'd wait for the EPA range test.

If it's not or you then it's not for you, I am proof that a long distance commute works.

What you will face sooner or later is queuing at a fast charger this will get worse as electrics get more popular, on the Plus side , when the longer range electrics arrive in 3 years time there will be a lot less need for fast charging hopefully easing the burden on the infrastructure. Hopefully the ESB will start charging for fast charge usage soon to stop people wasting a charger just because they want free electricity and to hell with the person who needs to use it !

You should try get a leaf for 2 days, I won;t go back to driving a petrol or especially diesel again, driving an ice car to me now is like stepping back in time !

NIMAN

Resale value was was caused me to buy another ICE car instead of a Laf when I changed at the start of the year.

I was worried that if I bought a 2yr old Leaf, kept it for 3yrs, then in 2018 when I came to change, the Leaf would be incredibly hard to sell, since new EV technology might make my car less attractive. plus would people want a 5yr old battery?

But EV is still on the agenda for my next purchase, perhaps via the PCP route?

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

Resale value was was caused me to buy another ICE car instead of a Laf when I changed at the start of the year.

I was worried that if I bought a 2yr old Leaf, kept it for 3yrs, then in 2018 when I came to change, the Leaf would be incredibly hard to sell, since new EV technology might make my car less attractive. plus would people want a 5yr old battery?

But EV is still on the agenda for my next purchase, perhaps via the PCP route?

Resale on an older leaf might be an issue due to battery uncertainties and you're right to be cautious. Nissan Ireland currently will not even allow you to replace the battery.

As it stands now though the leaf is holding it's value very well indeed.

I went on PCP because as you say, the technology is improving and the MK II will be out by the time my lease expires, though the GM Bolt will probably beat them to it.

Larger batteries will have far less stresses this is why the Model S battery will last the life of the car and beyond. Even a 30% loss in capacity the model S 85 Kwh will still provide a good 180 odd miles range.

pwurple

Resale isn't an issue for us. I basically plan on keeping it for at least ten years and giving it to my kids as their first car. I might have to replace the battery at some stage (estimate 6k), but even if i don't, they'll have a small range so they can't get up to too much mischief, and it will cost feck all to run.

Electric vehicle's should in theory have a much longer lifespan because there is no engine wear. Mileage means wear on wheels, but not much else.

Yeah in theory it should last forever but if any of the electrics fail out of warranty It will be very expensive to fix. Parts are also very hard to find.

It's proving to be very reliable though.

I hope Nissan decide to allow Irish leafers to replace the battery in the future because currently you'll have to go to the U.K to have it replaced. Or it's a DIY job but with nearly 400 volts you really got to know what you're doing and take every precaution.

September1

CiniO wrote: »

Simple maths...

I just looked at my recent electricy bill.
It said 371 KWh accounted for 198kg of CO2 emmisions.

So each KWh accounts for 533g (grams) of CO2 emmissons.

To fully charge your Nissan Leaf, you need to use about 24KWh, and this will give you 100-150km travel depending on various circumstances. Assume 125km on average for instance.

24KWh of electricity accounts for 12.8kg of CO2 emissions which gives you 102g/km in your electric car.

Plenty of petrol and diesel cars now doing much better than that.

Indeed, electric car is surely more environmentally friendly in it's direct surrounding as it doesn't emit anything, so it's great for driving in places where people live (f.e. in cities), but globally, considering producing electricity emits CO2 same as combustion engines, and it's very not environmentally friendly to manufacture those vehicles and their batteries, I wound't buy electric for environmental purposes.

You are very either biased against EVs for some reason or maybe you have no experience with modern cars which burn much more fuel than they are rated in typical use. You should either compare real power consumption of LEAF with real emissions of modern cars or compare standardized measurements for both cars.

Sabre Man

CiniO wrote: »

Simple maths...

I just looked at my recent electricy bill.
It said 371 KWh accounted for 198kg of CO2 emmisions.

So each KWh accounts for 533g (grams) of CO2 emmissons.

To fully charge your Nissan Leaf, you need to use about 24KWh, and this will give you 100-150km travel depending on various circumstances. Assume 125km on average for instance.

24KWh of electricity accounts for 12.8kg of CO2 emissions which gives you 102g/km in your electric car.

Plenty of petrol and diesel cars now doing much better than that.

Indeed, electric car is surely more environmentally friendly in it's direct surrounding as it doesn't emit anything, so it's great for driving in places where people live (f.e. in cities), but globally, considering producing electricity emits CO2 same as combustion engines, and it's very not environmentally friendly to manufacture those vehicles and their batteries, I wound't buy electric for environmental purposes.

You're not comparing like to like. You're forgetting the CO2 emissions that goes into filling up your tank (drilling, refining, transport to the petrol stations).

Not to mention local emissions from petrol and diesel cars.

DrPhilG

Thanks for all the replies, lots to consider.

Regarding the Leaf (which seems to be the top dog for pure electric), what are the advantages of that over the Ampera (which from my research looks like the top range extender type)?

To me the Ampera seems to make more sense simply because it gives similar benefits as pure electric in that it would cover all of my daily driving purely on the battery, while also giving me the petrol option when I have longer trips. I know the Leaf could do the job on electric with a little planning for charges etc but is it worth that extra planning if a range extender does the same job?

The Leaf certainly seems to be more available in Ireland although I wouldn't have a problem taking a trip to England and importing.

Bear in mind the Ampera is a 4 seater due to the ridiculous battery design and layout.

I couldn't justify carrying an engine for the few extra miles I need on electric that the fast charger can give me. 30-35 miles max ev range in the Ampera is not enough for me, not by a long shot. You also have to do normal maintenance on the engine.

If you have problems with the Ampera you'll most likely have to put it on the back of a transporter back to the U.K, I seriously doubt Opel in Ireland could fix it for you.

The prius plug in has a very small battery and not worth the premium, it costs a good bit more than the Leaf too !

I've the diesel to do the longer trips and I can borrow a car from a family member if I needed.

But it's whatever suits you.

Go take a Leaf for a test drive and see what you think.

biko

There are plenty reviews and customer feedback on youtube too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2Dt3KPg-UQ

Asmooh

DrPhilG wrote: »

Changing the car in the next year, and my wife really wants to go electric (for environmental reasons).

I don't think that electric is an option due to the range. Our general driving is just in and out to work, maybe 20 miles a day. But we do go on longer drives quite often, Donegal to Dublin or Belfast. And we go to Cork and back once a year. That's long oul trip to be doing in a car that can only manage 100 miles at best before needing a charge. We also have a fairly high annual mileage, about 18k.

I've read that when you're using the heat and lights, like in the winter when it's dark and cold, you might only get 60 miles.

I've also read that electric cars don't hold their value well, presumably due to the high costs of battery replacement. I read one review that said the Renault Zoe only retains 35% of their value after 3 years!

Any suggestions? I'm looking for an option that goes a bit of the way towards satisfying the "need for green", whilst remaining practical in terms of driving, and finance. No sense saving a few grand a year in fuel costs if the depreciation on the car is huge.

Thanks!

Does she know how much toxic those batteries have?
better for her to take the bike

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Bear in mind the Ampera is a 4 seater due to the ridiculous battery design and layout.

The 4 seats is not an issue for me. No kids. The boot is big enough for the dogs.

Its an odd layout, but it's very rare that I would have 5 in the car.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I couldn't justify carrying an engine for the few extra miles I need on electric that the fast charger can give me. 30-35 miles max ev range in the Ampera is not enough for me, not by a long shot. You also have to do normal maintenance on the engine.

The Ampera does 45 on EV. My daily commute is maybe 25 max if I go shopping or visiting people etc.

I've read in various reviews that regular maintenance is around €300 a year.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you have problems with the Ampera you'll most likely have to put it on the back of a transporter back to the U.K, I seriously doubt Opel in Ireland could fix it for you.

I live in Donegal and work in Derry. There's no shortage of Vauxhall dealers around the North.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've the diesel to do the longer trips and I can borrow a car from a family member if I needed.

Go take a Leaf for a test drive and see what you think.

Whatever I buy will be our only vehicle and I wouldn't be into borrowing a car.

Ill definitely test drive a Leaf out of curiosity but no matter how good a drive it is I still would be hesitant relying on the EV range only.

Thanks for your info, you seem to be the resident Leaf expert.

My mind definitely isn't made up, but currently the Ampera is ticking more boxes for me. Although the Leaf would be considerably cheaper.

Asmooh

How about Tesla Roadster for her?

DrPhilG

Asmooh wrote: »

Does she know how much toxic those batteries have?
better for her to take the bike

I've told her that. But general consensus from what I've read is that overall the electrics are slightly better environmentally even taking the battery production into account.

Green is her logic. Money is mine. If I can run an electric or hybrid on much less than the €200 a month I currently spend on diesel then I'm interested.

Asmooh

DrPhilG wrote: »

I've told her that. But general consensus from what I've read is that overall the electrics are slightly better environmentally even taking the battery production into account.

Green is her logic. Money is mine. If I can run an electric or hybrid on much less than the €200 a month I currently spend on diesel then I'm interested.

She might like the Tesla Roadster, electric, fast, cabrio and a "girls" car that you (as man) can still drive.

DrPhilG

Asmooh wrote: »

How about Telsla Roadster for her?

Don't the Tesla cars cost a bomb?

Based on selling my current car for around €12k I'm hoping to spend no more than €10k on top of that.

Hence my Ampera thinking.
£15k = €20k
VRT = €2k
Own car = - €12k
New car = €10k

Asmooh

DrPhilG wrote: »

Don't the Tesla cars cost a bomb?

Based on selling my current car for around €12k I'm hoping to spend no more than €10k on top of that.

Hence my Ampera thinking.
£15k = €20k
VRT = €2k
Own car = - €12k
New car = €10k

Well... I don't know if you want a car, a nice car, a fun car or just a car from A to B.

A to B cars are cheap, get a prius or so.
Nice cars are bit more sporty (Honda CR-Z)
a fun car is more expensive but way more fun, better looking and yes more expensive (Roadster)

No the Ampera has an EPA range tested to 30-35 miles max and in winter this will be less. The E.U test cycle is nothing more than a lab test, completely unrealistic of actual driving. Car's in Europe emit far more toxic emissions because of this farcicle test we emit a lot more toxic emissions than the E.U want to believe or want us to believe.

I'd certainly have no hesitations borrowing a car, or renting one. My opinion is to have a car that does most of my driving, I know people say they want a car that meets 100% of their driving needs, but it suits me to have the leaf for my 134-140 KM commute and it is a great car to drive regardless of it's green credentials. But this is my preference and I know the Leaf is not the car for everyone just like the ICE car is not for me for 98% of the time.

Again Co2 is not a pollutant and does not harm human health or the environment. The media fanatics have people brainwashed into thinking C02 is polluting and dirty, this is far from the case.

The current Gen Ampera has slightly more range.

No one suggests that battery production is environmentally friendly but Lithium for one only adds up to a small amount of the production of the battery and while the environmental impact of mining minerals for batteries is probably as bad as that for normal cars the battery car emits 0 emissions for it's life and the battery can be recycled at end of life and /or used for renewable storage.

If people don't like mining then I got bad news for you, mining is necessary for your car, your Ipad, Mobile, their batteries, your house wiring, your TV your central heating, your windows your washing machine, dishwasher, dryer, hair dryer, shaver, food blender, bicycle, clock, watch, the boat that brings all the goodies, the train, the plane that flies you to your holiday destination, your laptop, your PC, just think of all the wiring that makes the internet work or bring the wires that bring the electricity to your house, one could go on for a while at this.

EV batteries account for a tiny portion of the batteries produced, the rest is for gadgets.

we got a precious gift on this Earth and it's the minerals, fossil fuels, nuclear etc we have the power to use it and we have the power to abuse it, it's up to us to ensure what we do on this earth is done in a way that is good for the environment.

Just think of the people on slave labour wages to mine a lot of the minerals we need and to make the products we use ?

Look at the impact farming has on the planet and the total devastation to forests and natural eco system the chemicals pumped into the land, Ireland being a prime example with less than 1% of natural forest left and no one cares. All we do is plant some pine woods and call it forest, it's usually only planted to cut down again for money !

The fact the fuel to make electricity comes mainly from fossil fuels the fuel to refine petrol and diesel also comes from fossil fuels.

We have the option of 100% electricity from Airtricity, they will buy the equal amount you use in 100% renewable energy to offset what fossil fuel actually generates your electricity.

We can install our own domestic wind turbines and solar PV but there needs to be a governmental will for this which does not exist in Ireland.

Rather than spend the money on a plug in or anything else now why not wait the 2-3 years for the 200 + mile EV ?

cros13

Asmooh wrote: »

Does she know how much toxic those batteries have?
better for her to take the bike

The batteries aren't toxic. I think you may be confusing lithium ion (every EV) with Nickel Cadmium (Prius). Nickel Cadmium is toxic, Lithium Ion isn't. Lithium is an essential nutrient required for your brain to develop properly. They once considered adding it tap water and if you have your own well one of the major sources of the salts in the water is lithium salts like lithium carbonate. Lithium is one of the most common elements in the earth's crust and is well tolerated by every form of life. Either way the battery is heavily sealed to allow submersion in up to a meter of water.

DrPhilG wrote: »

The Ampera does 45 on EV. My daily commute is maybe 25 max if I go shopping or visiting people etc.

I've read in various reviews that regular maintenance is around €300 a year.

The quoted range for the Leaf is 200km, realistically that means 130-160km. Realistic EV range on the Ampera is 40-50km.

The real problem with the Ampera is that you won't have support from the vauxhall dealers. Production has stopped and it's RHD follow-on has been cancelled. They have to sell off all the Amperas in stock before August 31st because the thing doesn't even meet Euro 6 emissions standards. I'd see parts becoming a problem fairly quickly. If your regular journeys fit inside the EV range why do you need to carry around and maintain an ICE engine that you rarely use? The Ampera made sense in 2012 when rapid charging wasn't available.

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ill definitely test drive a Leaf out of curiosity but no matter how good a drive it is I still would be hesitant relying on the EV range only.

Get a 2-3 day test drive if at all possible. But remember that charging will be two to four times quicker when you get a proper charger at home instead of a household socket and range will be a little better once you get used to using the State of Charge meter instead of the Guessometer and get used to using the regen braking more.

From my experience range anxiety is something that is largely suffered by people who don't drive EVs. With your low mileage and nearby rapid chargers I don't foresee a problem. If Mad_Lad and myself don't have have a range issue doing double to triple your mileage and in my own case including trips to the UK and continental europe, why would you have an issue with a 25km commute and the odd trip to Dublin?

DrPhilG

How long does a charge take in a Leaf?

Going to Belfast or Dublin for example, I've had a look and you're are plenty of charge points. Assuming that I would need 1 charge mid journey, how long would that take?

In other words for the annual Cork trip, would 3-4 midway stops make it impractical?

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

How long does a charge take in a Leaf?

Going to Belfast or Dublin for example, I've had a look and you're are plenty of charge points. Assuming that I would need 1 charge mid journey, how long would that take?

In other words for the annual Cork trip, would 3-4 midway stops make it impractical?

You'd probably stop at the rapid charger in Monaghan on the way there there and on the way back. I've heard there might another rapid going in at castleblayney which might suit better as you'll have plenty of battery left by the time you get to Monaghan on the way down.

On average a rapid charge from 5-6% to 80-85% will takes 16-17 minutes (based on my own data). You would definitely need at least 3 rapid charges for the trip to Cork so that's going to be about an hour, maybe an hour and 10 minutes on to your journey. Personally I think that's acceptable if you're not doing the journey every day. On my trip to northern Holland I did 7 rapid charges in a row without any real issues.

In very cold weather maybe add another 5-10 minutes on to the first rapid charge as the battery charges a fraction slower due to increased resistance in the cold battery pack. That would not apply to subsequent charges during a trip as the battery is warmed up by the first charge.

When charging at home, with a 3.3kw charging unit in the car or a 16 amp charger on the wall (which is what you get free from ESB) it will take 7-8 hours for a completely flat battery to reach 100%. With a 6.6kw charger in the car and a 32 amp charger on the wall (which you'd need to pay ~€500-600 out of pocket to have fitted) it will charge from flat to 100% in 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hours. In reality your battery won't be flat when you get home and on your mileage you'll be back to 100% in two to three hours even on the 3.3kw.

DrPhilG

I take it the esb only fit a charger if you're buying new?

I was going to go second hand. Probably going down the route of N Ireland import.

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

I take it the esb only fit a charger if you're buying new?

I was going to go second hand. Probably going down the route of N Ireland import.

Correct, you'll have to pay for your own charger if you buy second hand. In that case there's no reason not to get a 32 amp charger as they cost the same as the 16 amp. Any electrician can install them it's just a matter of a cable to your distribution board.

This would be my favored charger (i have four chargers total, two of these, a ZCW and the ESB 16 amp):
http://nuworldenergy.co.uk/shop/ev-charge-points.html/home-charge-points.html/wallpod-ev:-homecharge-32amp-type-2-universal-socket

There's no VRT on a used Leaf so any prices would be directly comparable. It might even be slightly cheaper to get a used Leaf in Ireland because of the exchange rate.
An Ampera would also use the same charger.

DrPhilG

A 1 year old Leaf in the North is about £13k/€17.5k and no VRT.

A quick look on Autotrader.ie is showing a Leaf at 1 year old as around €19k?

Are there many variations in terms of models etc?

I'm test driving one briefly in the morning in Derry but I'm going to arrange a test over a few days next week.

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

A 1 year old Leaf in the North is about £13k/€17.5k and no VRT.

A quick look on Autotrader.ie is showing a Leaf at 1 year old as around €19k?

Are there many variations in terms of models etc?

I'm test driving one briefly in the morning in Derry but I'm going to arrange a test over a few days next week.

The main thing is not to go for the base XE trim (called Visia in the UK), it lacks the Rapid-Charge connector and the more efficient heat pump based a/c|heating.

If you have a car for the €4k scrappage you can get a brand new Leaf in SV (the mid-level trim) from a Nissan dealer in the republic for ~€19-20k.

DrPhilG

cros13 wrote: »

If you have a car for the €4k scrappage you can get a brand new Leaf in SV (the mid-level trim) from a Nissan dealer in the republic for ~€19-20k.

My current car is a 2012 Peugeot 308.

Lithium itself isn't toxic but a lot of the other ingredients in a battery are, then there is the chemicals in the electrolyte. Once the battery is sealed there is no risk to the environment. The risk is improper handling and disposal at end of life.