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White Male Privilege
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Agree that life is unfair for everyone at some point in everyone's life-- but it's more unfair to women, and no, I do not think anything should be done about it.
I think it evens out over time. You are not making a great case as to why its unfair. You mention how its hard for women past thirty but you also say most women date older men at some stage. Why is this unfair? Are these women denying older women men by their actions?
If its that hard past thirty, wouldnt it be better to make women aware of this and settle down before they are past their peak? Also if youre single at thirty and want kids that can mean you need things to move fast.
As for men being superficial, men that are not financially secure would say women are materialistic. It doesnt matter though as you cant dictate what other people find attractive.0 -
Potatoeman wrote: »I think it evens out over time. You are not making a great case as to why its unfair. You mention how its hard for women past thirty but you also say most women date older men at some stage. Why is this unfair? Are these women denying older women men by their actions?
If its that hard past thirty, wouldnt it be better to make women aware of this and settle down before they are past their peak? Also if youre single at thirty and want kids that can mean you need things to move fast.
As for men being superficial, men that are not financially secure would say women are materialistic. It doesnt matter though as you cant dictate what other people find attractive.
ALso I'd think what you look for in a one nighter and what you look for in a long termer are a very different set of criteria, no?0 -
White privilege is real, but in Ireland, where pretty much everyone is white, it's negligible.
I live in the Middle East and there's definitely a hierarchy of races here, with white people just below the locals but ahead of pretty much everyone else in terms of perception. Here's an example: at the organization I work for we've had people try to change quotes from any interview from a better qualified Indian to be given to a lesser qualified Arab local. That's horrendous.
The idea of privilege manifests itself in ways that can be embarrassing and unwanted: domestic workers or hotel/retail staff being overly friendly or near-reverential, or malls/events turning away single men if they if they are Indian/Sri Lankan/Nepalese, but letting white people through. I think everyone here basically assumes that if you're white, you've got your **** together and are really rich and successful. And people seem to find me more attractive here than they would in Ireland, although that might just be because I'm relatively exotic.0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »You are being sentimental and you don't know what you are talking about.
Why not get your tubes tied removed no worries then about pregnancy.0 -
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Nope, not being sentimental, are you denying that there is joy for mothers during pregnancy and after the baby is born? I think you should read the definition of sentimental in the dictionary. I don't think it means what you think it means.
This is entirely concocted myth and is entirely subjective experience. Some women do, some women don't. It's not cut and dried.
You think all those women in Dublin tenements at the turn of the century enjoyed constantly being pregnant? Are for real...you sentimental tripe is the same crap the clergy was spouting for years.
Pregnancy and chilbirth is a physically and biologically taxing condition which was the number one killer of women until relatively recently.0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »ALso I'd think what you look for in a one nighter and what you look for in a long termer are a very different set of criteria, no?
That depends, good qualities can be a plus in all situations.0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »This is entirely concocted myth and is entirely subjective experience. Some women do, some women don't. It's not cut and dried.
You think all those women in Dublin tenements at the turn of the century enjoyed constantly being pregnant? Are for real...you sentimental tripe is the same crap the clergy was spouting for years.
Pregnancy and chilbirth is a physically and biologically taxing condition which was the number one killer of women until relatively recently.
We are not living in turn of the century Dublin. Use modern day ireland examples0 -
We're talking about the present day, it is common for women to experience joy during and after their pregnancy.
So you admit it's conditional on circumstance.
That does not change the biological demands and risks of pregnancy and childbirth.
Aks SAvita Haalvatapar.
Ask women with PND.
Ask women who have had emergency c-sections.
Please take your sentimental tripe back to Hallmark, they have better use for it.0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »So you admit it's conditional on circumstance.
That does not change the biological demands and risks of pregnancy and childbirth.
Aks SAvita Haalvatapar.
Ask women with PND.
Ask women who have had emergency c-sections.
Please take your sentimental tripe back to Hallmark, they have better use for it.
But you are talking privilege you have the privilege of child birth, so have you tied your tubes since you think it's a burden not a privilege.
Or will you admit privilege doesn't exist the world is too complicated to say you have it better then everyone cause you are white/man/woman/straight0 -
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I know. You've increasingly rarified your paramaters to exclude any case where your position that men are privileged is not true. It's made your argument meaningless.Yes, I understand that pregnancy falls under the umbrella of fertility. But I'm not talking about that.
But everyone has rejected the notion that you can only define this concept of a privileged position on biology alone. And in the case of life span, you've not countered, just denied - rather unconvincingly - despite evidence to the contrary.Privilege is defined as a right or immunity. Men are immune from intrinsically enduring for their fertility. All the other biological advantages/disadvantages you mention, I can counter.
Ah, we're in 'all men are rapists' territory. Of course, men hold all the cards because we end every date with a rape... you're scraping the barrel and harbouring some rather distasteful delusions yourself.You seem to be harboring under the illusion (or delusion) that women are the gatekeepers to sex. Up until a short while ago, I would have agreed. But now, I realize that men hold ultimate control when it comes to sex. At the end of the evening, if a man wants sex, he can get it. Not legally, but there are countries in this world where men are free to do so.
Because it demonstrates that a man's attractiveness to younger women also has a cut-off. You've been pushing this notion that men remain biologically fertile forever, but the reality is that for those of us who are not Hugh Hefner, we're not going to be able to do much about it after a certain point.And what is this supposed to prove? I know girls who have dated much older men, if that helps you--in fact, every woman I know has, by the time she's reached a certain age, dated a man significantly older than her. I have no idea of their specific ages.
Or are you going to suggest that we can, because we can rape them? Please keep digging.
Says you. You don't think it odd that you've presented nothing but opinion, yet you feel yours should be treated seriously, but you dismiss the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you?Her experience is worth less because she came to the ridiculous conclusion that women treat men like dirt; it's not a conclusion, it's an opinion (and a totally wrong one).
Have you actually tried to turn the concept of being expendable into one of genocide? LOL.Actually, men are not expendable at all ages. Men are needed just as much to propagate the species. We have to get the sperm from someone.
Oooo... saucer of milk for table 8.Oh, well, in that case, you seem like the type of middle-aged guy who got screwed over by an ex and now spends his days in front of a computer preaching to people half his age in an attempt to assert some type of power in his life. No, no, not you specifically, just seemingly.
To anything. Knock yourself out.To what, specifically?
And women are immune from conscription. I presume that makes them privladged. Or are you going to try and sell us some BS that privledge can only be biological. Then women live longer on average - they're immune from earlier deaths that men suffer.Privilege is an immunity. Men are immune from enduring for their fertility, so, yes, that makes you privileged.
Lots of people have given you examples. Mortality rates is one you've not countered, just dismissed.And for those two things you mention, I can counter. Can you give one specific example for the thing I mentioned above?
But most of all, I have repeatedly put to you that even if you point to on gender having an advantage of the other in one area, does not mean their privileged. You've failed to address this, let alone counter it.
How about you do that and stop wasting everyone's time with your continued convoluted nonsense?0 -
This. She's ignored this point repeatedly even though it's been asked multiple times by multiple poster. Entertaining her when she does this is frankly a waste of time.If you are only going to pick and choose some aspects you can argue anyone is "privileged". I could then make a case for squirrel privilege. They can climb trees and I can't.0 -
Magico Gonzalez wrote: »It's not my challenge, I'm white & male. You needn't spout empty truisms at me friend.
It's not a generational challenge either, that implies universality of this challenge.
"Worthy of life" - sorry, what now? How does one become worthy of life? Who is more worthy of life? A kid born into a south american slum whose family have to scan though rubbish picking out cardboard to sell to make ends meet? Ain't no time for that kid to study, I see them every day. If they aren't out with their family searching for my rubbish to sell, they don't eat. Empty aspirational rubbish, the like of which you must have pulled form an inspirational gym poster, won't help them. A kid who has the good luck to be born into a family wealthy enough to afford him the time to pursue an education? Is he more worthy of life?
I'm afraid poverty is a generational trap, as wealth is further concentrated across a globalized world, so is opportunity. Education is becoming a commodity, I'm afraid you're ideas may have held up 50 years ago before market economics where applied to education and social improvement programs, but now they are empty platitudes.
Why should someone have to overcome additional challenges just to have "equal status" in comparison to you & I. Morally and legally they should be granted that equal status. It should be theirs to lose. If you would spend some time outside your enclave you'd get to confront the reality of the unequal nature of opportunity and how the prevalent global economic and social system persists this model to the benefit of the great minority of people alive today...the same twits who hide behind dogsh1t statements about having to strive and overcome what are quite frankly impossible odds just to claw they way onto a level playing field.
I'd have more respect for you if you were honest, you don't want a level playing field because it jeopardises your share of the spoils.
That's a valid discussion on class, not this thread.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »I know. You've increasingly rarified your paramaters to exclude any case where your position that men are privileged is not true. It's made your argument meaningless.
No it hasn't. Privilege based on society, economy, and everything else that you've mentioned is completely fluid, and completely dependent on culture. Biology is not fluid. Yet.The Corinthian wrote: »But everyone has rejected the notion that you can only define this concept of a privileged position on biology alone. And in the case of life span, you've not countered, just denied - rather unconvincingly - despite evidence to the contrary.
So everyone has rejected it therefore that makes it untrue? I didn't know mob mentality created argument.The Corinthian wrote: »Ah, we're in 'all men are rapists' territory. Of course, men hold all the cards because we end every date with a rape... you're scraping the barrel and harbouring some rather distasteful delusions yourself.
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm implying:rolleyes:. Now who's the victim? And yet you imply that women will commit infanticide? Is this not the same ridiculous notion? You wanted to take it to biological extremes, so that's what I'm doing. Women do not, inherently speaking, hold the cards to sex. It's quite a simple notion really. This is why many nations on Earth consider the Middle East to be barbaric in nature. Doesn't mean most men will commit it, but, then again, most women will not commit infanticide.The Corinthian wrote: »Because it demonstrates that a man's attractiveness to younger women also has a cut-off. You've been pushing this notion that men remain biologically fertile forever, but the reality is that for those of us who are not Hugh Hefner, we're not going to be able to do much about it after a certain point.
When you give examples of old men who are still attractive, you do realize you're proving my point don't you? Man's attractiveness does not have a cut off--you haven't proven anything.The Corinthian wrote: »Or are you going to suggest that we can, because we can rape them? Please keep digging.
See above.The Corinthian wrote: »Says you. You don't think it odd that you've presented nothing but opinion, yet you feel yours should be treated seriously, but you dismiss the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you?
If you can't see how one social experiment that concludes that women treat men like dirt is not valid, I can't help you. You can't be serious here.The Corinthian wrote: »Have you actually tried to turn the concept of being expendable into one of genocide? LOL.
Where on Earth did you get genocide from what I said?!?! I don't see the connection.The Corinthian wrote: »Oooo... saucer of milk for table 8.
You deserved it buddy boy.The Corinthian wrote: »To anything. Knock yourself out.
Cite one specific thing.The Corinthian wrote: »And women are immune from conscription. I presume that makes them privladged. Or are you going to try and sell us some BS that privledge can only be biological. Then women live longer on average - they're immune from earlier deaths that men suffer.
But we know men do not, in any way, have to endure intrinsically for fertility, no pregnancy included. Do you realize that for every man who dies, his partner goes that much longer without romantic companionship? Or that estrogen makes bones inherently weaker, skin thinner, hair thinner, in other words, it makes the body more fragile?The Corinthian wrote: »Lots of people have given you examples. Mortality rates is one you've not countered, just dismissed.
See above.The Corinthian wrote: »But most of all, I have repeatedly put to you that even if you point to on gender having an advantage of the other in one area, does not mean their privileged. You've failed to address this, let alone counter it.
Overall, one gender is more privileged, therefore, male privilege does exist.The Corinthian wrote: »How about you do that and stop wasting everyone's time with your continued convoluted nonsense?
Or you stop wasting my time, and admit I'm right.
You must not have seen what I wrote in my post before you responded, so I'll repeat myself. You know, Corinthian, you've mentioned a couple of times that I have a black and white view of life--but did it ever occur to you that you may have it? The very black and white view of life that says, "In the end, everything equals out, and no one person has it inherently easier than the other"? This idea of equality, while noble, does not necessarily work out in the real world. Why does it pain you so much to admit that one gender may, when all is said and done, have more privilege? Or that evolution may not have worked itself out yet? After all, some species of animals on Earth are inherently weaker, and have inherently more difficult lives than other species. What makes you think this doesn't apply to gender? I'm looking for a genuine answer, no sarcasm please.0 -
So a privilege based on a mutable factor is not a privledge?No it hasn't. Privilege based on society, economy, and everything else that you've mentioned is completely fluid, and completely dependent on culture. Biology is not fluid. Yet.
No, that everyone has rejected it and given reasons you're ignoring makes it untrue. It's not the mob, it's confirmation that more than one has spotted the same flaw in your arguments.So everyone has rejected it therefore that makes it untrue? I didn't know mob mentality created argument.
All you've done is at best argue that in terms of fertility (one area) men have a biological advantage. Absolutely nothing else.Overall, one gender is more privileged, therefore, male privilege does exist.
Anyhow, you've been asked already multiple times; if you point to on gender having an advantage of the other in one area, does not mean their privileged. As Tregatti pointed out, one could then make a case for squirrel privilege on the basis that they can climb trees and we can't.
You've failed to address this and, given you one liner above, have no response. So if you're unable to do this, it's clear that your argument isn't up to it and I don't intend to waste my time further.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »So a privilege based on a mutable factor is not a privledge?
No, but when all the privileges you mention can be countered, but you can't counter the one I am specifically referring to, overall, men have privilege.The Corinthian wrote: »No, that everyone has rejected it and given reasons you're ignoring makes it untrue. It's not the mob, it's confirmation that more than one has spotted the same flaw in your arguments.
You mean a mob, not the mob?The Corinthian wrote: »All you've done is at best argue that in terms of fertility (one area) men have a biological advantage. Absolutely nothing else.
And for all the other areas (society, culture, law) you mention, I can counter, depending on society of course.The Corinthian wrote: »Anyhow, you've been asked already multiple times; if you point to on gender having an advantage of the other in one area, does not mean their privileged. As Tregatti pointed out, one could then make a case for squirrel privilege on the basis that they can climb trees and we can't.
If overall, one gender has more privilege then another, yes, it does mean they are privileged.The Corinthian wrote: »You've failed to address this and, given you one liner above, have no response. So if you're unable to do this, it's clear that your argument isn't up to it and I don't intend to waste my time further.
So, in other words, like a frightened animal who's backed into a corner, instead of using fight, you've resorted to flight.0 -
But you've not countered everything. You now seem to accept that mutable privileges cannot dismissed, yet you've dismissed any that were not strictly biological to date. So you've not countered all the privileges mentioned.No, but when all the privileges you mention can be countered, but you can't counter the one I am specifically referring to, overall, men have privilege.
Even with those that are biological, you've never countered the question of life span. So even there you've failed to counter all the privileges mentioned.
Depending on society? You mean that in some societies you can't counter them.And for all the other areas (society, culture, law) you mention, I can counter, depending on society of course.
Which you have not demonstrated.If overall, one gender has more privilege then another, yes, it does mean they are privileged.
Grow up. In other words, when faced with someone who still refuses to address the same point, there's little point in repeating myself so you can continue ignoring it. I'm happy to engage in debate, when you're willing to actually debate.So, in other words, like a frightened animal who's backed into a corner, instead of using fight, you've resorted to flight.
So would you like to do so or can we presume you're just talking through your arse and your conscious decision to avoid doing so is an admission that you know it?0 -
But you are talking privilege you have the privilege of child birth, so have you tied your tubes since you think it's a burden not a privilege.
Or will you admit privilege doesn't exist the world is too complicated to say you have it better then everyone cause you are white/man/woman/straight
First all I am not talking privalege.
Secondly, pregnancy and childbirth is not necessarily a privalege.
Thirdly you can't just get your tubes tied, it's not like ordering a pizza, there are medical protocols which will allow you or not allow you.
You need to educate yourself.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »
As Tregatti pointed out, one could then make a case for squirrel privilege on the basis that they can climb trees and we can't.
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We can't make a case for squirrel privalege because humans can and do climb trees if they want to, and have the means to create and utilise technolgy to assist in this.0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »We can't make a case for squirrel privalege because humans can and do climb trees if they want to, and have the means to create and utilise technolgy to assist in this.
What about the privilege of actually being a squirrel?
All my life I have been jealous of them and yearned to be a squirrel but alas, it's a privilege I will never experience.0 -
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zeffabelli wrote: »We can't make a case for squirrel privalege because humans can and do climb trees if they want to, and have the means to create and utilise technolgy to assist in this.
Women have the option to freeze an egg and use surogoccy to consive after menopause. So there goes one of the reasons why men are more privileged0 -
Overall, one gender is more privileged, therefore, male privilege does exist.
Why does it pain you so much to admit that one gender may, when all is said and done, have more privilege?
How are you defining "male privilege" though?
I don't understand. You seem to be saying that the life of a man is better than the life of a woman, therefore men have more privilege. How have you defined "better" though? Is this just your opinion of what is better or worse or do you have some objective measurement you are using to measure how much better life is for men?
If it's just your opinion and not an objective measurement then how can you declare that "one gender is more privileged"?
As a man, I cannot carry a child and give birth to that child. If some women say that childbirth is the greatest thing ever then they'd be considered privileged in my eyes, right?
Yet, it would seem kind of silly for me to proclaim that "female privilege" exists because of this as other women might turn round and say that childbirth is the most horrific thing ever?
So how can we proclaim that "white male privilege" exists when some of these "privileges" will be available only to a very small percentage of white males?
How can you say that one gender is more privileged when people can easily point out that there are positives and negatives that come with being either male or female?
You make bold statements such as "life is unfair for everyone at some point in everyone's life-- but it's more unfair to women". This statement is only true when applied to an extremely simplified model of reality.
Are you saying that a boy born in Dublin today will have a far better life than a girl born, in the same city on the same day, by virtue of gender alone?0 -
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Crispy ChickenWings wrote: »So believe that once a natural biological privilege can be partially negated by technology that it is no longer a privilege?
I think you're missing the point somehow. Fish can breath under water indefinitely, does that mean there is fish privilege?
Well we can build submarines, we have built hotels underwater, we have oxyfen tanks for breathing for scuba.
It's very hard to argue that animals have more privalkge than we do. The only time I have heard someone argue this was then they were jealous that their dog didn't have to go to work. This however is not true for many dogs.0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »Well we can build submarines, we have built hotels underwater, we have oxyfen tanks for breathing for scuba.
It's very hard to argue that animals have more privalkge than we do. The only time I have heard someone argue this was then they were jealous that their dog didn't have to go to work. This however is not true for many dogs.
How many humans can afford a submarine? After all that was your rebuttal for freezing eggs?
Anyway, a submarine doesn't impart the ability to breath underwater indefinitely.0 -
Crispy ChickenWings wrote: »How many humans can afford a submarine? After all that was your rebuttal for freezing eggs?
Anyway, a submarine doesn't impart the ability to breath underwater indefinitely.
No it had nothing to do with eggs.
How many humans can afford egg freezing and surrogacy? That is all financial privalege, if it even works, which is doubtful most of the time. We covered this already, try to keep up.0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »No it had nothing to do with eggs.
How many humans can afford egg freezing and surrogacy? That is all financial privalege, if it even works, which is doubtful most of the time. We covered this already, try to keep up.
Is a sterile man more or less privileged then a fertile woman?0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »No it had nothing to do with eggs.
How many humans can afford egg freezing and surrogacy? That is all financial privalege, if it even works, which is doubtful most of the time. We covered this already, try to keep up.
As is owning a submarine financial privilege, you still think it negates fish privilege.
You're just being evasive now and trying to bait me into a slagging match so your blatant contradictions can be ignored and forgotten about.0 -
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