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Allergic to Work

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13567…17

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    #62
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    Free Hat wrote: »
    Would it be demeaning to force people who are out of work to contribute to improving their local areas or something equally positive?

    I guess I'm a fascist or something for even suggesting it.

    I don't understand what you are talking about. This objective from government has already been implemented for many years now. #36


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    #63
    Free Hat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭Free Hat


    Bongalongherb wrote: »
    I don't understand what you are talking about. This objective from government has already been implemented for many years now.

    Ah my apologies, I wasn't aware unemployed people were forced to do this kind of work. I know there are certain schemes and things but I wasn't sure if they were mandatory.


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    #64
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,817 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    chicorytip wrote: »
    Those in receipt of unemployment assistance/benefit must provide documentary evidence that they are genuinely seeking work or else face the prospect of having their "dole" reduced/cut.
    I just don't see how it's possible to claim, therefore, that there is some kind of permanently scrounging underclass who gain money from the state in return for doing absolutely nothing.

    Over the last few years there have consistently been upwards of 250,000 on the Live Register for more than one year. Obviously it isn't the same individuals every month. And the Live Register is not a measure only of those totally unemployed. But it does not include the 80,000 or so on schemes like Jobbridge.

    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterapril2015/

    I cannot reconcile these numbers with the oft repeated assertions on AH that people are being forced on to make work schemes. The figures just don't add up and in particular Jobbridge could only take about another 2000 of them before it reaches its maximum number allowed of 8500.

    Full employment is about 4% of the workforce on the dole as happened (and only ever went that low) in the Bertie years. Hundreds of thousands were coming here to work but that figure never went below 4%. It is a simple fact that some people are not cut out for the world of work, or are more suited to a lifetime of being mature students.


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    #65
    Aongus Von Bismarck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭Aongus Von Bismarck


    I'm all for a social safety net but some people really do take the piss. I live (and work!) in Germany and though it's a bit of a cliche, they really do have a hugely impressive work ethic over here.

    I rarely see the likes of my brother, for example. He's a lifelong "government artist" himself and he seems to spend his days down in the bookies or smoking hash with boy racers out in these middle-of-nowhere beaches in Connemara.

    His few laughable attempts at clawing his way from the gutter aside, he seems to be mostly resigned to a lifetime of drinking Bavaria beer for breakfast, looking for handouts and doing dodgy nixers around our village. Waste of a life if you ask me.


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    #66
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    Free Hat wrote: »
    Ah my apologies, I wasn't aware unemployed people were forced to do this kind of work. I know there are certain schemes and things but I wasn't sure if they were mandatory.

    Oh yeah, they are mandatory for sure or they will be cut €44 on the first refusal, and then cut-off on the second. Now in saying this, There is a possibility that when folk are cut-off from the social welfare... that they can then go to their local community welfare officer and get money that way from them, but not 100% sure if that is still possible any-more.


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    #67
    Sheep Lover
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭Sheep Lover


    Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »
    I'm all for a social safety net but some people really do take the piss. I live (and work!) in Germany and though it's a bit of a cliche, they really do have a hugely impressive work ethic over here.

    I rarely see the likes of my brother, for example. He's a lifelong "government artist" himself and he seems to spend his days down in the bookies or smoking hash with boy racers out in these middle-of-nowhere beaches in Connemara.

    His few laughable attempts at clawing his way from the gutter aside, he seems to be mostly resigned to a lifetime of drinking Bavaria beer for breakfast, looking for handouts and doing dodgy nixers around our village. Waste of a life if you ask me.

    At least he's not a pompous arsehole though eh?


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    #68
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    . It is a simple fact that some people are not cut out for the world of work, or are more suited to a lifetime of being mature students.

    There is something out there to suit everyone. if you look hard enough or even try to look as many of these people don't.


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    #69
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,817 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    222233 wrote: »
    There is something out there to suit everyone. if you look hard enough or even try to look as many of these people don't.

    There are two million or so of us who made ourselves attractive to employers and got a job. Employers won't take on someone who is not capable of doing the job. That is the reason that some people have to be accommodated on schemes like CES, or spend their liftetime on government supported university courses.

    Maybe it has been mentioned in the thread (apart from the Kaiser's brother) but the whole world of nixers and the unofficial economy doesn't get measured in the statistics.


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    #70
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Bongalongherb wrote: »
    They are just a small minority that don't care either way.
    A small minority that could number in their tens of thousands.
    People choosing not to work at any level is very worrying.
    But a single person with no kids will only get €100 - €188 per week to live on and feed themselves as well as rent etc...
    They could also be getting rent allowance or fuel allowance among possible other benefits.
    Put wages up to a living wage and you will see many folk going back to employment. What's the living wage now ? €11.46 or something.
    A large increase in the minimum wage will lead to inflation and a further call for social welfare rates to be increase.


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    #71
    Roquentin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Roquentin


    222233 wrote: »
    There is something out there to suit everyone. if you look hard enough or even try to look as many of these people don't.

    i agree


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    #72
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    chicorytip wrote: »
    Those in receipt of unemployment assistance/benefit must provide documentary evidence that they are genuinely seeking work or else face the prospect of having their "dole" reduced/cut.
    I just don't see how it's possible to claim, therefore, that there is some kind of permanently scrounging underclass who gain money from the state in return for doing absolutely nothing.

    Real artists do not rely on the dole alone though. For a real "benefit street" family it would be a combination of well timed unemployment benefits, lone parent's, disability, carer's, SWO payments and housing of some sort. There's one family like that in my neighbourhood - two parents, a daughter, her three children and (visiting) two fathers of said children. None of them is employed and never has been as far as my neighbours can remember. All seem quite spry and active and not bad people to be honest - they just game the system because it allows them to.


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    #73
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There are two million or so of us who made ourselves attractive to employers and got a job. Employers won't take on someone who is not capable of doing the job. That is the reason that some people have to be accommodated on schemes like CES, or spend their liftetime on government supported university courses.

    Why are these people "not capable", education is paid for if you are a mature student and people in social welfare circumstances would be entitled to a grant if they wanted to go to college. Its making a bloody effort, no such thing as not being capable (again unless its disability etc).

    If you aren't capable of the educational aspects of college for whatever reason there are plenty of other fields of work out there that don't require academia, the government are very willing to pay for education for these people to make them employable.

    its simply people not being arsed.


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    #74
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    Half the country on social welfare.

    Third of expenditure on social welfare.

    Highest disability claimees in Europe.

    Go figure.


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    #75
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    A small minority that could number in their tens of thousands.
    People choosing not to work at any level is very worrying.


    They could also be getting rent allowance or fuel allowance among possible other benefits.

    A large increase in the minimum wage will lead to inflation and a further call for social welfare rates to be increase.

    First off. You cannot get rent allowance unless you either have been accepted for social housing... or have paid your own rent for six months.

    You cannot just sign on the dole and automatically get rent allowance, you have to be elligible.

    Well the key is to not increase welfare payments. Leave them as they are and also not cut them, but if they were static and not increased then it might be an incentive for folk to go back to employment. A living wage of €11.46 p/h would be a hell of a lot better than €188, that's for sure.


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    #76
    Aongus Von Bismarck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭Aongus Von Bismarck


    Sheep Lover wrote: »
    At least he's not a pompous arsehole though eh?

    Excuse me? :confused:


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    #77
    Cold War Kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭Cold War Kid


    I don't consider myself "above" any jobs - when the **** hit the fan in 2009 my contract in quite a well paying job couldn't be renewed and I took a minimum wage job then.
    But there are certain jobs I would point-blank refuse to do: any cold-call/door-to-door sales type stuff, or "chugging". I don't consider myself above those roles, I just don't want to be doing a job that annoys people, and I know I wouldn't last a day anyway.

    I also wouldn't blame someone who is constantly on the lookout for work but turns down a job that would pay them less than they're getting in welfare (e.g. travel expenses being factored in) until they got a job that paid the same or more.


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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    222233 wrote: »
    There is something out there to suit everyone. if you look hard enough or even try to look as many of these people don't.

    Or if it doesn't absolutely suit you to a tee, then it still has to be better than sitting on your bum all day.

    Having lived in the U.S for a few years where 'you don't work you don't eat' pretty much rules, coming back to Ireland was a rude awakening.

    The entitlement attitude really makes my blood boil. In America, no one feels entitled to anything. You work for what you have...and I would vote in any government tomorrow that was going to introduce that kind of policy here.


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    #79
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »
    Excuse me? :confused:

    You are excused.


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    #80
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    Bongalongherb wrote: »
    A living wage of €11.46 p/h would be a hell of a lot better than €188, that's for sure.

    I think the 11.46 should only be increased for people who have been working all along or out of work for a short period of time, not for people who decided to stay out of work for 10 years, let them pay back what they owe.


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    #81
    garra
    Registered Users Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭garra


    Noonan is just saying what most normal hard-working folk think, which is most unlike a politician. I don't want to live in a state without a functioning welfare system but I also don't want to feel ripped off every time I see the taxes I pay monthly.
    The only compromise is to reduce welfare payments on an incremental basis every month until the job seeker finds employment imo. It pays not to work in this country, we need to incentivize gainful employment by not taxing low earners and not removing all other benefits (medical card / rent allowance) immediately after a job is found.


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    #82
    Cold War Kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭Cold War Kid


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Having lived in the U.S for a few years where 'you don't work you don't eat' pretty much rules, coming back to Ireland was a rude awakening.
    I don't agree with that kind of society either though. I'm not anti America and it's important to spread the message that people have to take responsibility for themselves, but not to the extent of there being virtually no supports for people who need a helping hand. There is terrible poverty in America, and a crazy socio-economic divide, which is a bit mad in a first world country.


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    #83
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    222233 wrote: »
    I think the 11.46 should only be increased for people who have been working all along or out of work for a short period of time, not for people who decided to stay out of work for 10 years, let them pay back what they owe.

    It won't work doing it that way to be honest. No discrimination at all, pay every worker a living wage, most of it will go directly back into the economy from folk having more to spend.


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    #84
    Streetwalker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    Noonan is full of sh1t. Stop looking after the rich and well heeled and provide conditions where jobs can be provided for the working and coping classes. FG outing themselves as the right wing lunatics they are yet again.


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    #85
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    Bongalongherb wrote: »
    It won't work doing it that way to be honest. No discrimination at all, pay every worker a living wage, most of it will go directly back into the economy from folk having more to spend.

    just don't think its right that other people have had to take a fall and struggle while working to accommodate these people not to work, i think you should be forced into paying a higher rate of tax after several years of self decided unemployment


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    #86
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    garra wrote: »
    Noonan is just saying what most normal hard-working folk think, which is most unlike a politician. I don't want to live in a state without a functioning welfare system but I also don't want to feel ripped off every time I see the taxes I pay monthly.
    The only compromise is to reduce welfare payments on an incremental basis every month until the job seeker finds employment imo. It pays not to work in this country, we need to incentivize gainful employment by not taxing low earners and not removing all other benefits (medical card / rent allowance) immediately after a job is found.

    That USC was supposed to be only temporary, they should have got rid of that nasty thing instead of barely cutting it. The gov said that they are making a lot of money from it, but unjustly imo.


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    #87
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    Streetwalker wrote: »
    Noonan is full of sh1t. Stop looking after the rich and well heeled and provide conditions where jobs can be provided for the working and coping classes. FG outing themselves as the right wing lunatics they are yet again.

    Please refer to my post 5 posts uyou think the "poor" aren't looked after in this country?


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    #88
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    Noonan is a bit like AH.

    Normal, compassionate people cede that there is a small hardcore of people that won't work but he is just ramping up for a cheap shot - or worse - on anybdy left unemployed by the cyclical vagaries of business and the economy.


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    #89
    garra
    Registered Users Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭garra


    Streetwalker wrote: »
    Noonan is full of sh1t. Stop looking after the rich and well heeled and provide conditions where jobs can be provided for the working and coping classes. FG outing themselves as the right wing lunatics they are yet again.

    Dont agree with that at all, I reckon most working people would agree with his sentiments tbh. The conditions for creation of employment haven't been better since the celtic tiger days. Before you jump down my throat, I'm not a supporter of any political party by the way


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    #90
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The entitlement attitude really makes my blood boil. In America, no one feels entitled to anything. You work for what you have...and I would vote in any government tomorrow that was going to introduce that kind of policy here.

    In the US it doesn't even matter if you work hard. There's no guarantee that you'll have a living wage to show for it. Millions of people need to have their salaries subsidised by government because they get paid so little.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/

    What a paradise it is :rolleyes:

    You should have stayed the fuck over there if you thought so highly of it
    82,679,000 of the welfare-takers lived in households where people were on Medicaid, said the Census Bureau. 51,471,000 were in households on food stamps. 22,526,000 were in the Women, Infants and Children program. 20,355,000 were in household on Supplemental Security Income. 13,267,000 lived in public housing or got housing subsidies. 5,442,000 got Temporary Assistance to Needy Families. 4,517,000 received other forms of federal cash assistance.

    How do you put in perspective the 109,631,000 people taking welfare, or the 150,026,000 getting some type of federal benefit other than veterans' benefits?

    Well, the CIA World Factbook says there are 142,470,272 people in Russia. So, the 150,026,000 people getting non-veterans federal benefits in the United States at the end of 2012 outnumbered all the people in Russia.

    http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/354-percent-109631000-welfare


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    #91
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    anncoates wrote: »
    Noonan is a bit like AH.

    Normal, compassionate people cede that there is a small hardcore of people that won't work but he is just ramping up for a cheap shot - or worse - on anybdy left unemployed by the cyclical vagaries of business and the economy.
    Is there anything wrong or untrue in his comments?


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