UK Election 2015

130Kph

jank wrote: »

Not wanting to drag this off topic but the above is not true. Malpractice sure, being sentenced to death, nope.

I agree it wasn't an HSE execution and of course there is a comprehensive thread for this topic. However this also needs to be corrected. Malpractice was an important but secondary component which only came into play after the abortion was refused.

Shortly after arriving in hospital Savita asked for an abortion. This was the only sane course of action. If she had an abortion immediately there would have dramatically less risk of her dying due to septicemia. She would most likely have recovered and gone home regardless of other incompetence at the hospital (and may even have had a healthy baby since). The culprit always was & is - our immoral abortion restrictions.

ancapailldorcha

They could have saved her but they chose not to. I don't know what else to call it.

BoatMad

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Ireland is neither Left, right or Centre..

Certainly for the last 40 years we have been exclusively about populist auction politics..

Parties pick and choose policies not in any coherent manner, but simply make carousel choices based on what combination they believe will get them/keep them elected.

All parties that have held office have implemented policies and budgets from all points of the compass simply to get elected.

Until such time as the Irish voter thinks further ahead than the next budget , or thinks about more than "what are you going to do for me right now" that will continue.

Ireland is very clearly centre right as a general rule. the preponderance of small farmers , self employed and the lack of a history of large scale working class , ensures that .

BoatMad

who the fug wrote: »

There is no contempt for social welfare, people who make a career out of welfare are held in contempt, also what is wrong about being skeptical about this rush to create a Eurostate, or the cart before the horse that is the Euro.

Indeed, I suspect that many of DC ideas, will actually find favour in Euroland, and I suspect is what has many europhiles in Brussels worried,

It actually could catch on, with many members looking for changes. Immigration reform/ free movement issues being popular in many EU countries

Personally DC, will get enough to promote a yes, the Tory party will split and all hell will break loose. The UK populace are 60 40 IN FAVOUR of remaining in the EU, The country is much less euroskeptic then the tory party

eire4

BoatMad wrote: »

Indeed, I suspect that many of DC ideas, will actually find favour in Euroland, and I suspect is what has many europhiles in Brussels worried,

It actually could catch on, with many members looking for changes. Immigration reform/ free movement issues being popular in many EU countries

Personally DC, will get enough to promote a yes, the Tory party will split and all hell will break loose. The UK populace are 60 40 IN FAVOUR of remaining in the EU, The country is much less euroskeptic then the tory party

The poll I am looking at while showing a majority in favour of staying in are a bit closer. This one is 45-35 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/24/us-britain-politics-europe-idUSKBN0LS1UG20150224

KingBrian2

BoatMad wrote: »

Indeed, I suspect that many of DC ideas, will actually find favour in Euroland, and I suspect is what has many europhiles in Brussels worried,

It actually could catch on, with many members looking for changes. Immigration reform/ free movement issues being popular in many EU countries

Personally DC, will get enough to promote a yes, the Tory party will split and all hell will break loose. The UK populace are 60 40 IN FAVOUR of remaining in the EU, The country is much less euroskeptic then the tory party

Yes but those parties are in retreat and the conservatives are consuming the policies of these parties. They want out while none of the opposing parties will hold sway in Westminster.

jank

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They could have saved her but they chose not to. I don't know what else to call it.

Malpractice, not an execution squad.

Quin_Dub

BoatMad wrote: »

Ireland is very clearly centre right as a general rule. the preponderance of small farmers , self employed and the lack of a history of large scale working class , ensures that .

Socially maybe , but politically , in practice Ireland wants(or at least votes for) large government and low taxes which is an unsustainable hodge-podge of left and right politics...

who the fug

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Exactly the point I was trying to make but the other posters on here try to convince us all how great and left wingish the Brits are considering how they just destroyed all the left wing parties in the recent election. Greens, Euro federalists, Liberals, Republicans and Labour are kaput while the Conservatives and the even more right wing Ukip are on the march. This is very worryingly for European politics. No sooner has civil rights been won then the forces of reactionaries will start their campaigns to change policies just like in the US with the Congress that was elected into power.

Look this ain't Dixie and it ain't 1963 , so what are you about Civil Rights and reactionaries being on the march.

KingBrian2

who the fug wrote: »

Look this ain't Dixie and it ain't 1963 , so what are you about Civil Rights and reactionaries being on the march.

Always exercise vigilance. The far right and left are both extreme and cause chaos. In the UK the conservatives are aligned with the very Conservative DUP. When FF was discovered to have links to a far right wing group in the European Parliament they were forced to distance themselves.

who the fug

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Always exercise vigilance. The far right and left are both extreme and cause chaos. In the UK the conservatives are aligned with the very Conservative DUP. When FF was discovered to have links to a far right wing group in the European Parliament they were forced to distance themselves.

No the Tories have a history with the Unionist party, but none with the DUP, coalition makes strange bedfellows but the DUP along with SF are seen as a joke in London

alaimacerc

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Exactly the point I was trying to make but the other posters on here try to convince us all how great and left wingish the Brits are considering how they just destroyed all the left wing parties in the recent election.

Your "exactly the point" continues its long march all over the place! Who exactly is claiming the UK is "great and left wingish"? Or either of those, even? The UK might well be the second-most conservative country in Western Europe. Your on-going error is to fail to recognise the problem with your comparison with Ireland, clearly and historically the most such.

When have Irish parties comparable to Labour, the Greens, and the SNP done remotely as well as the way those were "just destroyed"? With what, 35%+ of the popular vote between them?

You may think there's about to be a huge surge to SF in the next election. Their (intermittent) claim to be a "left" party is very suspect, however. Essentially they're just leaching a certain amount angry Labour voters, and sheepish FF ones, especially of the "dodgy populist nationalism" sort.

WheatenBriar

Good article here and good title

'Inside the milibunker'

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9528312/inside-the-milibunker-the-last-days-of-ed-did-ed-miliband-sacrifice-ed-balls/

KingBrian2

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Good article here and good title

'Inside the milibunker'

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9528312/inside-the-milibunker-the-last-days-of-ed-did-ed-miliband-sacrifice-ed-balls/

Your getting your articles from the Spectator. That is enemy territory they were campaigning for the Conservatories they are unlikely to portray their rivals as anything other than hacks and wannabes.

KingBrian2

alaimacerc wrote: »

Your "exactly the point" continues its long march all over the place! Who exactly is claiming the UK is "great and left wingish"? Or either of those, even? The UK might well be the second-most conservative country in Western Europe. Your on-going error is to fail to recognise the problem with your comparison with Ireland, clearly and historically the most such.

When have Irish parties comparable to Labour, the Greens, and the SNP done remotely as well as the way those were "just destroyed"? With what, 35%+ of the popular vote between them?

You may think there's about to be a huge surge to SF in the next election. Their (intermittent) claim to be a "left" party is very suspect, however. Essentially they're just leaching a certain amount angry Labour voters, and sheepish FF ones, especially of the "dodgy populist nationalism" sort.

The conservatives in the UK are Republican bad aka American. Our parties totally reject the version of society practised in the UK. I don't think their will be a huge surge in the extreme left in Ireland but that is not the same as the deeply conservative views expressed by the Conservatives in the UK. Britain is a large country yet still the wealthy conservatives dominate in all areas of public life. They even consider the BBC the bastion of liberalism even though that is certainly not the case. Ireland still has a very active social democratic wing in the Dail.

BoatMad

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The conservatives in the UK are Republican bad aka American. Our parties totally reject the version of society practised in the UK. I don't think their will be a huge surge in the extreme left in Ireland but that is not the same as the deeply conservative views expressed by the Conservatives in the UK. Britain is a large country yet still the wealthy conservatives dominate in all areas of public life. They even consider the BBC the bastion of liberalism even though that is certainly not the case. Ireland still has a very active social democratic wing in the Dail.

Very little difference between major policy issues between centre right aka Tories and centre right parties in Ireland.

The Tories are nowhere near the US republican party in ideology

Ireland is clearly a centre right country unlike the UK which has a strong left wing ideology and has regular elected majority left wing governments

BoatMad

Originally Posted by KingBrian2 View Post
Exactly the point I was trying to make but the other posters on here try to convince us all how great and left wingish the Brits are considering how they just destroyed all the left wing parties in the recent election. Greens, Euro federalists, Liberals, Republicans and Labour are kaput while the Conservatives and the even more right wing Ukip are on the march. This is very worryingly for European politics. No sooner has civil rights been won then the forces of reactionaries will start their campaigns to change policies just like in the US with the Congress that was elected into power.

Europe is trending , certainly in the Northern sections, towards centre right

in the UK, labour did OK, on share of the vote, the SNP is clearly a left wing party

UKIP is not a right wing party, and its share of the vote was spread very thinly across many electoral areas, so even in PR, they would not have gained a lot of seats

you're just spouting nonsense really

gallag

BoatMad wrote: »

Europe is trending , certainly in the Northern sections, towards centre right

in the UK, labour did OK, on share of the vote, the SNP is clearly a left wing party

UKIP is not a right wing party, and its share of the vote was spread very thinly across many electoral areas, so even in PR, they would not have gained a lot of seats

you're just spouting nonsense really

Under PR UKIP would have secured over 80 seats!

ancapailldorcha

Showing that FPTP isn't completely without merit.

FTA69

The reality is that Labour are haemorrhaging votes from their former working class base to the likes of UKIP and apathy and are increasingly losing young and urban support to the Greens. In Scotland they lost support to the anti-austerity left in the form of the SNP. Their middle class vote generally held up all figures concerned.

Which bemuses me as to why the narrative we're being spun is all about how Labour were "too much to the left".

ancapailldorcha

FTA69 wrote: »

Which bemuses me as to why the narrative we're being spun is all about how Labour were "too much to the left".

Look at their policies; a slight trim of tuition fees, better rights for tenants, a freeze on energy prices, a higher minimum wage and a mansion tax. Those are barely off the centre IMO, especially when you see the Greens pushing for the abolition of tuition fees, nationalising rail and energy, no private involvement in the NHS and an abolition of immigration controls.

Clearlier

I moved to the UK about 6 years ago. I hadn't given it an awful lot of thought but my expectation was that there wouldn't be much of a difference between Ireland and England. I was surprised and continue to be surprised at how much more right wing I find England to be (bear in mind that I'm living in a strongly Tory area).

It seems to me (and this could just be naive anecdotal evidence) that inequality is much more readily accepted here. Food banks are normal. I see homeless people every day (apparently southern coastal towns are relatively attractive if you're homeless though) and I've generally found a much less forgiving attitude to people who have fallen on hard times. It often seems to me that there's more of an interest in putting people in their place than trying to help them out of the hole that they're in.

I see this as largely being driven by the highly adversarial political culture engendered by the FPTP system compared to PR which engenders a little more nuance. The number of people who more or less verbatim respout the fairly extremist garbage that comes out of the mouths of politicians is shocking. The print media doesn't help either - nuance is missing in so much of the 'analysis' that people aren't provoked to think things through and end up with a fairly simplistic and often extreme view of complex problems e.g. immigrants bad, benefit claimants are all fraud etc..

ancapailldorcha

I've lived in Oxford, Manchester & Brighton & Hove and I've definitely noticed this, especially in Oxford. It's a lot less prominent in Manchester but not uncommon at all. Brighton & Hove is a bit of an exception given that we have 3 MPs from 3 different parties; Labour, Conservatives & Greens.

partyguinness

Clearlier wrote: »

I moved to the UK about 6 years ago. I hadn't given it an awful lot of thought but my expectation was that there wouldn't be much of a difference between Ireland and England. I was surprised and continue to be surprised at how much more right wing I find England to be (bear in mind that I'm living in a strongly Tory area).

It seems to me (and this could just be naive anecdotal evidence) that inequality is much more readily accepted here. Food banks are normal. I see homeless people every day (apparently southern coastal towns are relatively attractive if you're homeless though) and I've generally found a much less forgiving attitude to people who have fallen on hard times. It often seems to me that there's more of an interest in putting people in their place than trying to help them out of the hole that they're in.

I see this as largely being driven by the highly adversarial political culture engendered by the FPTP system compared to PR which engenders a little more nuance. The number of people who more or less verbatim respout the fairly extremist garbage that comes out of the mouths of politicians is shocking. The print media doesn't help either - nuance is missing in so much of the 'analysis' that people aren't provoked to think things through and end up with a fairly simplistic and often extreme view of complex problems e.g. immigrants bad, benefit claimants are all fraud etc..

I have been here 5 years and yes, I would agree.

I have struggled at times to verbalise my 'analysis' of life and society in England. It is not easy but suffice to say English society is vastly more complicated and multi-layered.

Irish society is small and relativley straight forward. This is not a criticism but it is inevitable: Smal island of nearly 70m v small island of nearly 5m.

Immigration over the past 60 years from former colonies means that you simply cannot compare Ireland with the UK. The UK is a complex, multi-national, multi-layered society and more urban. Many reasons for this.

It also means that society in the UK is disjointed and disconnected. When of the main differences is the total disconnect between politics and the people on the ground. For example, during the recent election not one single candidate knocked on our door and not a single leaflet put through our letterbox and not a single poster on our street or even nearby.

The most shocking difference for me has been the is the treatment of death/burial in England compared to Ireland.

In Ireland when someone dies funeral and burial in 2-3 days. Everyone drops everything. In England, it's a case of 'Whatever'. the funeral and burial will be fitted in 2-3 weeks time if anyone could be bothered to book it in.

'Oh we are on on holiday. We will do it in 2 weeks time. Oh wait, I have a hairdressers appointment. Lets make it the following day'- I am not making this up...and this could be the children. I have heard this myself.

In my line of work, I am often asked to prepare Powers of Attorney for elderly people and one of the to requirements is that 2 people outside of the family must certify that the person is not under duress. The 2 people must know the elderly person for at least 2 years.

It is quite sad the amount of times people in their 70s and 80s have not been able to proceed because they have nobody to ask that has known them for 2 years!!! And the elderly person will have lived in the same place for 40-50 years but does not even know their neighbor.

We are not talking about some anonymous apartment blocks in the city centre- these are well established suburban streets.

Even my wife has lived in the same house on the same street for 15 years- only 20 houses and the neighbours have not changed. In fact she was the last person to move in.

When I moved over first, I asked questions like- 'Who lives there? Where do they work?- Wife has no idea. Even the lady next door (semi-detached) and is of the same age. My wife knows her first name- and that is it. Surname, work etc- no idea.

Having grown up in rural Ireland I find that amazing. Yes, that happens is urban areas all over the world- but jaysus. It is shocking.

The powers that be in England defo want to keep the masses in their place- there is nothing easy here. Just work work work. They cant have everyone going to University- they need cannon fodder for the Army and factories. Interesting that ads here for the navy etc have heavy working class regional accents (mostly northern like Liverpool)- that's the well they are tapping into- won't find much cannon fodder in proud Tory land like Berkshire or Bucks!

I have discussed this with a Greek guy at work and he also struggles with the complete lack of society compared to Greece (which is much like Ireland)

As Margaret Thatcher said 'There is no such thing as society' - I can see exactly what she meant.

Fratton Fred

It's noticeable because it's different to what you are used to.

I moved to Ireland when the then Taoiseach was basically caught lieing through his teeth under oath in an inquiry into corruption. Any British politician in his position would have been forced to resign, but not only did he get away with it, he also got re-elected.

But in Ireland people seem to always find excuses for people and seem to be happy with being blatantly exploited by the political class.

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's noticeable because it's different to what you are used to.

I moved to Ireland when the then Taoiseach was basically caught lieing through his teeth under oath in an inquiry into corruption. Any British politician in his position would have been forced to resign, but not only did he get away with it, he also got re-elected.

But in Ireland people seem to always find excuses for people and seem to be happy with being blatantly exploited by the political class.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-32930488

alaimacerc

partyguinness wrote: »

In Ireland when someone dies funeral and burial in 2-3 days. Everyone drops everything. In England, it's a case of 'Whatever'. the funeral and burial will be fitted in 2-3 weeks time if anyone could be bothered to book it in.

This is an apt observation, but... how does it go to the idea of the UK being especially "conservative" as such? In any real sense? Unless you're reasoning entirely from a basis from "stuff I don't like => must be right wing somehow". In fact, most conservatives would share your sentiments on this. Religion, tradition, community, big society, yadda-yadda.

Just catching up on some TV after some time away, Andrew Marr at the start of his show last week described Ireland as "Europe's most socially conservative country". The objective facts seem to back up his characterisation.

KingBrian2

alaimacerc wrote: »

This is an apt observation, but... how does it go to the idea of the UK being especially "conservative" as such? In any real sense? Unless you're reasoning entirely from a basis from "stuff I don't like => must be right wing somehow". In fact, most conservatives would share your sentiments on this. Religion, tradition, community, big society, yadda-yadda.

Just catching up on some TV after some time away, Andrew Marr at the start of his show last week described Ireland as "Europe's most socially conservative country". The objective facts seem to back up his characterisation.

Plenty of other European countries can take that place now. Still large parts are wedded to backward traditions.

bilston

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Look at their policies; , a freeze on energy prices.

Yeah the policy of freezing energy prices was a bit of a disaster for Labour. No sooner had they announced this policy that energy prices started to fall pretty sharply.

partyguinness

alaimacerc wrote: »

This is an apt observation, but... how does it go to the idea of the UK being especially "conservative" as such? In any real sense? Unless you're reasoning entirely from a basis from "stuff I don't like => must be right wing somehow". In fact, most conservatives would share your sentiments on this. Religion, tradition, community, big society, yadda-yadda.

That is not a point to back conservatism- not in the slightest bit conservative at all. Just more of an observation about how much more matter of fact it is in England which may leave one feeling especially cold and is just one small cog in the greater feeling of disconnect in English society- there is none? Plus I didn't say I didn't like it- just an observation.

alaimacerc wrote: »

Just catching up on some TV after some time away, Andrew Marr at the start of his show last week described Ireland as "Europe's most socially conservative country". The objective facts seem to back up his characterisation.

According to who? Did he give any examples?

It is certainly a (what I would deem- lazy) stereotype they like to trundle out in England about Ireland. Is Ireland really more socially conservative than Italy, Spain, Portugal or even Poland? I genuinely do not agree.