UK Election 2015

loyatemu · 10-05-2015 8:19pm

karma_ wrote: »

The tweet was crass, and showed an extraordinary insight into how the political class see the electorate.

It's a parody account - it's not really IDS

@IDS_MP wrote:

Chin chin old bean. Parodia Spucatum tauri

KingBrian2 · 10-05-2015 10:30pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

Firstly, that's an entirely different proposition. Are you forgetting that the UK has, unlike Ireland, had non-conservative governments? You shouldn't be, as I already pointed this out...

But since you're on a roll:

Guilt by association... without the actual association. And note that the Tories a) legislated for same-sex marriage, and b) have Catholic cabinet members. Give the devil their due.

HoL is part of parliament, how precisely does it "supplant" it? And are you familiar with the Parliament Act?

And are you by any chance thinking of the ECHR? Not at all clear what you mean, otherwise.

Well, one of them is a very recent convert from "the armed struggle", as I recall...

The UK is to right of Ireland on Euroskepticism and bombing random bits of the Middle East, sure, for all the obvious historical reasons in each case. And on about those alone, really -- that it took you two posts to come up with, mind you.

Incorrect. Google it. And either way (should either vary, or the exchange rate take another lurch), how would this square with your "is opposed to" claim? It's the law. No UK party proposes to abolish it.

The Tories did much of what you say as a coalition with the Liberal Democrats. They are still the very conservative party that existed in the 80's. Their support coming from big business, Arab Sheikhs etc. They are still considerable better than other conservative parties and even some of the moderate parties. They govern a huge country with many different political orientations. Of course they must accommodate all of these groups but on some very important issues like EU membership and NATO they have not shifted their positions.

As for the minimum wage difference read this for comparisons between Britain and Ireland.

http://www.publicpolicy.ie/the-minimum-wage-in-ireland/

alaimacerc · 11-05-2015 12:10am

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The Tories did much of what you say as a coalition with the Liberal Democrats.

Well, "in", not "as". Not as if they had a head transplant for five years. They still actively assented to same-sex marriage, etc, at the very least. The coalition just meant that "modernising" Tories didn't need to worry about the loony third of his party giving him too much trouble on some aspects.

And ah yes, the LibDems, that well-known non-British party. What was your actual point again, remind us?

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I challenge that assertion that we are as conservative as the UK.

How's that planning out, on mature reflection?

Of course they must accommodate all of these groups but on some very important issues like EU membership and NATO they have not shifted their positions.

Being in NATO is a "conservative" thing? So now you'll be telling us that the Netherlands and Norway are rampagingly right-wing as compared to Ireland? Let's not be framing international comparisons entirely through green-tinted glasses.

As for the minimum wage difference read this for comparisons between Britain and Ireland.

http://www.publicpolicy.ie/the-minimum-wage-in-ireland/

Maybe check out a source that's less out of date, if you've not got the memo about which way the exchange rate's been going for the last couple of years. There's a handy table on Wikipedia if you don't want to do the maths. UK now down a couple of spots behind France and Belgium, but still 29c ph ahead of Ireland. To which add the cost-of-living factors that article mentions.

And again, how would this make the UK "opposed to" a minimum wage? Even if you're going to delve into the history of this, the UK did it (slightly) before Ireland. Though both were well-ahead of Germany doing so, come to that...

Iwasfrozen · 11-05-2015 12:48am

Icepick wrote: »

The system is undemocratic no matter who wins, and it created and sustains the two-party competition.
SNP - of course, the numbers speak for themselves. And of course if people knew their votes won't be wasted, the support for the most popular candidates would be even lower:

The system creates and sustains a two party system? This would be the system which in its previous operation created a coalition government? Or which this time allowed a third party to sweep Scotland?

If this system is designed to sustain a two party system it's doing a pretty shít job of it.

KingBrian2 · 11-05-2015 2:20am

alaimacerc wrote: »

Well, "in", not "as". Not as if they had a head transplant for five years. They still actively assented to same-sex marriage, etc, at the very least. The coalition just meant that "modernising" Tories didn't need to worry about the loony third of his party giving him too much trouble on some aspects.

And ah yes, the LibDems, that well-known non-British party. What was your actual point again, remind us?

How's that planning out, on mature reflection?

Being in NATO is a "conservative" thing? So now you'll be telling us that the Netherlands and Norway are rampagingly right-wing as compared to Ireland? Let's not be framing international comparisons entirely through green-tinted glasses.

Maybe check out a source that's less out of date, if you've not got the memo about which way the exchange rate's been going for the last couple of years. There's a handy table on Wikipedia if you don't want to do the maths. UK now down a couple of spots behind France and Belgium, but still 29c ph ahead of Ireland. To which add the cost-of-living factors that article mentions.

And again, how would this make the UK "opposed to" a minimum wage? Even if you're going to delve into the history of this, the UK did it (slightly) before Ireland. Though both were well-ahead of Germany doing so, come to that...

The lib dems not a British party what are you on about. The party of Gladstone and Lloyd George. In its day the British liberal party was an actual force for good. Today the UK is way off the reservation when it comes to being left wing. Behind Euro scepticism over there at least is contempt for social welfare. Labour party campaigned on ending zero hour contracts which the Conservatives are dead against. Not forgetting a brief period when Cameron attempted to go Green in order to win votes from the middle classes.

I shall finish from where I began, the UK has become more conservative over the last two decades than even the 80's. They regard the UK's role in Europe as a protector against evil Putin a communist KGB spy. Such a ludicrous notion. Responsible trade policies and good diplomatic relationships are fully within the grasp of any country willing to embrace them. Something conservatives in the UK lack.

One more point to make and that is that the Conservatives fully endorsed PM Tony Blair in his war policies. It was the weak left that lost ground and failed to oppose this key parliamentary decision.

sdanseo · 11-05-2015 2:34am

Icepick wrote: »

The system is undemocratic no matter who wins, and it created and sustains the two-party competition.
SNP - of course, the numbers speak for themselves. And of course if people knew their votes won't be wasted, the support for the most popular candidates would be even lower:

Whatever about re-running the Scottish referendum, they need to re-run the alternative vote one first. Two party politics - even with the Tory win - are dead and buried in the UK now.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The system creates and sustains a two party system? This would be the system which in its previous operation created a coalition government? Or which this time allowed a third party to sweep Scotland?

If this system is designed to sustain a two party system it's doing a pretty shít job of it.

Flukes, perhaps - more likely just the way the dynamic is. Pick holes in the idea that it supports the two biggest parties if you want, but it's certainly undemocratic. Any FPTP system where there's more than 2-3 parties is, fundamentally, undemocratic (or at the very least less democratic than PR-STV).

who the fug · 11-05-2015 7:30am

There is no contempt for social welfare, people who make a career out of welfare are held in contempt, also what is wrong about being skeptical about this rush to create a Eurostate, or the cart before the horse that is the Euro.

A Dub in Glasgo · 11-05-2015 7:51am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Or which this time allowed a third party to sweep Scotland?

It is designed for 2 big parties, the Tories are not a big party in Scotland. The battle was between the SNP & Labour, the Tories are an irrelevance in Scotland.

If this system is designed to sustain a two party system it's doing a pretty shít job of it.

That is because it is well past it's sell by date and needs to be replaced

Iwasfrozen · 11-05-2015 1:26pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

It is designed for 2 big parties, the Tories are not a big party in Scotland. The battle was between the SNP & Labour, the Tories are an irrelevance in Scotland.

Before this election the SNP were pretty minor yet the system allowed them to sweep Scotland.

Also the last election produced a coalition government with a third party.

That is because it is well past it's sell by date and needs to be replaced

That's your opinion but it's not an undemocratic system.

hmmm · 11-05-2015 2:02pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's your opinion but it's not an undemocratic system.

Well now, let's not forget that PR has consistently given Ireland perfect governments. It's only right that we should share the benefits of our good fortune with our less fortunate neighbours, struggling under the yoke of 5.6% unemployment.

Clearlier · 11-05-2015 2:45pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Before this election the SNP were pretty minor yet the system allowed them to sweep Scotland.

Also the last election produced a coalition government with a third party.

That's your opinion but it's not an undemocratic system.

It's not undemocratic but it hardly produces an accurate representation of the votes that area cast either! That said I do think that UKIP and formerly the Lib Dems got a lot of protest votes from people who wanted to vote but not for a ruling party. These votes may well have gone elsewhere in a PR system.

It's a little disingenuous to suggest that the SNP were a minor player. They may have had only 6 MP's but they hold a majority in the regional parliament. There isn't the same mechanism for developing a party within England.

donaghs · 11-05-2015 2:54pm

The UK first-past-the-post system is often cited in Italy as a good model to follow to avoid coalition government wrangles, and frequent elections to form new coalitions governments. It all depends how you define "democratic".

Perhaps a directly elected PM/President, and a parliament under the current system would be more democratic - a little similar to aspects of the US and France.

Iwasfrozen · 11-05-2015 3:09pm

donaghs wrote: »

The UK first-past-the-post system is often cited in Italy as a good model to follow to avoid coalition government wrangles, and frequent elections to form new coalitions governments. It all depends how you define "democratic".

Perhaps a directly elected PM/President, and a parliament under the current system would be more democratic - a little similar to aspects of the US and France.

I never liked in Ireland how the leader of the executive also controls parliament. We could learn something from the US and France.

BoJack Horseman · 11-05-2015 6:03pm

So Farage has 'un-resigned' & is leader of the kippers again.

Eric Cartman · 11-05-2015 6:16pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

So Farage has 'un-resigned' & is leader of the kippers again.

the groutch · 11-05-2015 7:22pm

They more than quadrupled their support, got their first ever MP, and added another 175 council seats including gaining overall control of Thanet District Council.

I think that more than justifies him keeping his job.

ancapailldorcha · 11-05-2015 7:24pm

I hate UKIP but there's no denying what Farage has done for them. If anything, they're dangerously reliant on him. He's probably the only leader I thought exhibited any sort of genuine charisma during the entire campaign.

Eric Cartman · 11-05-2015 7:30pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I hate UKIP but there's no denying what Farage has done for them. If anything, they're dangerously reliant on him. He's probably the only leader I thought exhibited any sort of genuine charisma during the entire campaign.

and as much as people want to call him names or slag the 'pint and a fag' attitude, it appeals massively to ordinary british people, his flaws and 'I'm just like you' attitude humanise him more than any of the other leaders.

sdanseo · 11-05-2015 8:29pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I never liked in Ireland how the leader of the executive also controls parliament. We could learn something from the US and France.

The US example of a political system is overcomplicated. The executive essentially acts as a third house in its own right - and while to an extent the President of Ireland does the same thing (s/he is constitutionally the third and final part of the Oireachtas) their ability to change law is zero, whereas Obama can simply veto a bill because he doesn't like it.

Queue a pile of political disagreement between a house / senate both controlled by one party and an executive controlled by the other. It's like having two governments, elected at different times and in different socio-economic moods, and it resulted in chaos when they couldn't agree on a budget, to give just one example.

Too many cooks spoil the broth and all that.

KingBrian2 · 11-05-2015 8:39pm

who the fug wrote: »

what is wrong about being skeptical about this rush to create a Eurostate, or the cart before the horse that is the Euro.

Perhaps when it was your party that supported the creation a transnational free trade association with access to lucrative markets in Eastern Europe in the first place. Britain did more to advance the Eurostate mentality than most others. For a great many smaller and average European Nations the European community with extended benefits for its citizens was and still is an ideal prospect.

InTheTrees · 12-05-2015 12:19am

sdanseo wrote: »

Queue a pile of political disagreement between a house / senate both controlled by one party and an executive controlled by the other. It's like having two governments, elected at different times and in different socio-economic moods, and it resulted in chaos when they couldn't agree on a budget, to give just one example.

I believe that was the plan. Checks and balances. There's three branches, the Executive (the president), the legislature (congress) and the judiciary (supreme court).

And they all trump each other in different ways ensuring no one branch can get too carried away with power.

sdanseo · 12-05-2015 12:31am

InTheTrees wrote: »

I believe that was the plan. Checks and balances. There's three branches, the Executive (the president), the legislature (congress) and the judiciary (supreme court).

And they all trump each other in different ways ensuring no one branch can get too carried away with power.

I'm not sure some of the branches don't have too much trumping power, though - enough to needlessly overcomplicate the processes involved. Let the democratically elected officials do the job with enough checking and balancing as is prudent, but don't tie their hands and legs together in the process.

alaimacerc · 12-05-2015 3:49am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I never liked in Ireland how the leader of the executive also controls parliament.

In any parliamentary system, it's the legislature that determines the composition of the executive. Hence no-confidence motions, "heaves"/"parliamentary coups", and so on. Any appearance to the contrary is entirely a matter of the dynamic of personality- or party-politics.

alaimacerc · 12-05-2015 3:53am

Clearlier wrote: »

It's a little disingenuous to suggest that the SNP were a minor player. They may have had only 6 MP's but they hold a majority in the regional parliament.

They love it when you call them a "region".

There isn't the same mechanism for developing a party within England.

There is in London, at least -- admittedly perhaps the least likely region so to do. If there's any meaningful devolution to the other major "city regions" (or more logically, I'd say, to the Regions proper), you might see something similar. But it'd be awkward to be running in parallel with MPs still coming from the "national" parties.

alaimacerc · 12-05-2015 4:03am

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The lib dems not a British party what are you on about.

I thought the heavy irony there was pretty obvious. When the right-wing party and the centrist one are racing the leftist(ish) one to introduce same-sex marriage, it's pretty silly to dredge up DUP homophobia as evidence the UK is conservative as a whole.

I shall finish from where I began, the UK has become more conservative over the last two decades than even the 80's.

But that's not where you began -- it's yet a third proposition, distinct from either of the previous two. The one you started with first being, as I've pointed out, entirely wrong. (And the second, very cherry-picked and poorly argued, for all that it's partially correct.)

The UK seems to have moved to the right on Europe, immigration, and on the economy generally. But it's moved to the left on what here would quaintly be called "moral issues". One could say much the same about Ireland, on both accounts.

ancapailldorcha · 12-05-2015 8:21am

If anything, I'd say the UK has embarked on the path to becoming a libertarian nation, ie left wing social policies on immigration and individual freedoms with right wing economic policies and privatisation of various state assets. How Ireland could be considered to be on the left of the UK socially is beyond me considering the HSE sentenced Savita to death, that we're only now have a referendum on gay marriage and the Catholic Church still enjoys a level of influence one could only describe as obscene.

Quin_Dub · 12-05-2015 8:43am

Ireland is neither Left, right or Centre..

Certainly for the last 40 years we have been exclusively about populist auction politics..

Parties pick and choose policies not in any coherent manner, but simply make carousel choices based on what combination they believe will get them/keep them elected.

All parties that have held office have implemented policies and budgets from all points of the compass simply to get elected.

Until such time as the Irish voter thinks further ahead than the next budget , or thinks about more than "what are you going to do for me right now" that will continue.

KingBrian2 · 12-05-2015 10:09pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Ireland is neither Left, right or Centre..

Certainly for the last 40 years we have been exclusively about populist auction politics..

Parties pick and choose policies not in any coherent manner, but simply make carousel choices based on what combination they believe will get them/keep them elected.

All parties that have held office have implemented policies and budgets from all points of the compass simply to get elected.

Until such time as the Irish voter thinks further ahead than the next budget , or thinks about more than "what are you going to do for me right now" that will continue.

Exactly the point I was trying to make but the other posters on here try to convince us all how great and left wingish the Brits are considering how they just destroyed all the left wing parties in the recent election. Greens, Euro federalists, Liberals, Republicans and Labour are kaput while the Conservatives and the even more right wing Ukip are on the march. This is very worryingly for European politics. No sooner has civil rights been won then the forces of reactionaries will start their campaigns to change policies just like in the US with the Congress that was elected into power.

eire4 · 12-05-2015 11:25pm

InTheTrees wrote: »

I believe that was the plan. Checks and balances. There's three branches, the Executive (the president), the legislature (congress) and the judiciary (supreme court).

And they all trump each other in different ways ensuring no one branch can get too carried away with power.

In theory yes. The reality in todays US politics is that money trumps all. Since the citizens united supreme court decision money has taken over US politics and it could be argued the country is becoming or already is an oligarchy.

jank · 13-05-2015 3:19am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If anything, I'd say the UK has embarked on the path to becoming a libertarian nation, ie left wing social policies on immigration and individual freedoms with right wing economic policies and privatisation of various state assets. How Ireland could be considered to be on the left of the UK socially is beyond me considering the HSE sentenced Savita to death, that we're only now have a referendum on gay marriage and the Catholic Church still enjoys a level of influence one could only describe as obscene.

Not wanting to drag this off topic but the above is not true. Malpractice sure, being sentenced to death, nope.

UK Election 2015

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