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US shooting at Mohahammed Cartoon conference

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    #272
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    If he was there with his camera, why didn't he film the placing of the blood, or rolling out the drums of it even from a black van with tinted windows?


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    #273
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    omnithanos wrote: »
    Well here's that video of the police officer being killed in Paris, viewer discretion advised

    Number of things wrong with that video.

    1. He tells you there is something wrong with the official story ("punch a hole right through it") and then says "draw your own conclusions". That is entirely misleading and suggests that he's right, and you're about to see why.

    2. He questions why an officer being shot in the head isn't shown live on tv. Gee, I wonder why people watching the news wouldn't want to see a cop shot in the head, with his hands in the air. I guess the murder of the American journalists by ISIS, the Kurdish pilot being burned alive, and the dozens of people being beheaded aren't real either since they weren't shown on tv.

    3. "He isn't hit by a bullet". He quite clearly fúcking is. An Ak-47 fires a round at around 2300 feet per second. They were firing at point blank. That's enough to punch a hole right through the bone of the skull and ricochet off of the concrete underneath his skull. The "impact" can be gas (the AK-47 is a gas-powered rifle), powder (from the round) or debris (from where the bullet hit the concrete after his skull). (I've included a video down the end as a demonstration)

    4. "His head doesn't rock" The bullet didn't have time to slow down, you see it all the time in combat footage in Iraq/Afghanistan if the enemy is hit by a sniper rifle in relatively close quarters. The bullet is moving so quick it punches straight through whatever is in its path.

    5. "This is a hit from an AK-47" and then shows you a video of a watermelon. Yes, the skin of a watermelon is absolutely the same density as bone.

    He clearly has absolutely no idea what he's talking about, and his opinion can be safely discarded as ramblings of someone who probably uses the word "clips" when talking about how many rounds a magazine can hold.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWAc9enWF2Q

    See the way the gas comes out of the end of the muzzle as the bullets come out? It's almost like that's how the gun operates. Freaky, right?


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    #274
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    wes wrote: »
    I never said that they did, yet we still have extremists of that faith murdering people in the name of Buddhism, so you should take it up with them.
    wes wrote: »
    In regards to Jainism, you do appear to be correct, but non-violence is central to that faith from my understanding, so its actually unique in regards to most religions.

    Buddhism on the other hand, well......

    Both are inherently religions of peace.
    Some of its practitioners are not engaged in what could be regarded as peaceful activities.
    Islam, some of its practitioners are engaged in activities that would not be regarded as peaceful, but point to their sacred texts for justification.


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    #275
    Mechanical Clocktail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭Mechanical Clocktail


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    That's it?
    Are you for f**kin real?

    What's "fake" about the uncensored version?

    It doesn't look like he was shot in that video just posted. Not a drop of blood or movement from the head when the shot was fired, nothing at all. He looks untouched by it. Finding the ID's in the getaway car is ludicrous altogether. It's not hard to imagine there was some kind of staging or set-up here. And now France has its own patriot act directly thanks to this. It's foolishness not to question things. Not believing official reports hardly makes a person a loony. I think the video there does look suspicious.


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    #276
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So if you want some kind of movie guy flying backwards being shot. Guess what's going to happen with the guy holding the AK ?


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    #277
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    It doesn't look like he was shot in that video just posted. Not a drop of blood or movement from the head when the shot was fired, nothing at all. He looks untouched by it. Finding the ID's in the getaway car is ludicrous altogether. It's not hard to imagine there was some kind of staging or set-up here. And now France has its own patriot act directly thanks to this. It's foolishness not to question things. Not believing official reports hardly makes a person a loony. I think the video there does look suspicious.

    If you understood basic physics or gun mechanics, you'd know there's nothing "suspicious" about it.


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    #278
    omnithanos
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 710 ✭✭✭omnithanos


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    If you understood basic physics or gun mechanics, you'd know there's nothing "suspicious" about it.

    In de movies dey do use de fake blood fer dis kind of ting.


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    #279
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    omnithanos wrote: »
    In de movies dey do use de fake blood fer dis kind of ting.

    But But, In Call of Duty they go flying.... :pac:


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    #280
    Mechanical Clocktail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭Mechanical Clocktail


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    If you understood basic physics or gun mechanics, you'd know there's nothing "suspicious" about it.

    I'm not a gun expert so tell me. No blood splatter or anything else, is that normal? If I shot someone in the head with an AK point blank the bullet would come out the other side of their head with no mess of any kind? Genuine question.


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    #281
    omnithanos
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 710 ✭✭✭omnithanos


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So if you want some kind of movie guy flying backwards being shot. Guess what's going to happen with the guy holding the AK ?

    Recoil?


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    #282
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    It doesn't look like he was shot in that video just posted. Not a drop of blood or movement from the head when the shot was fired, nothing at all. He looks untouched by it. Finding the ID's in the getaway car is ludicrous altogether. It's not hard to imagine there was some kind of staging or set-up here. And now France has its own patriot act directly thanks to this. It's foolishness not to question things. Not believing official reports hardly makes a person a loony. I think the video there does look suspicious.

    Have a look at some of the stuff coming out of Syria: blood doesn't explode from heads instantly even at point blank range, heads don't snap back at impact.

    Re the exploding melon, a highly controlled experiment obviously...calibre and bullet type used?


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    #283
    omnithanos
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 710 ✭✭✭omnithanos


    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    I'm not a gun expert so tell me. No blood splatter or anything else, is that normal? If I shot someone in the head with an AK point blank the bullet would come out the other side of their head with no mess of any kind? Genuine question.

    We can google it
    http://www.quora.com/If-someone-was-shot-in-the-head-with-an-AK-47-at-point-blank-range-would-his-her-head-explode


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    #284
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    omnithanos wrote: »
    Recoil?

    And ? Can you just try and think of the energy transfer needed to make a human body fly like in the movies ? And all this done on a point the size of a bullet ? The only people that fly are in games and on TV.


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    #285
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    I'm not a gun expert so tell me. No blood splatter or anything else, is that normal? If I shot someone in the head with an AK point blank the bullet would come out the other side of their head with no mess of any kind? Genuine question.

    The kinetic force of a 7.62x39mm is not enough to "splatter" a human skull like it does a watermelon. At point blank it would bunch a hole right through, probably sending some bone with it but the exit wound would be relatively small (it wouldn't have slowed down enough to ricochet internally, or cause a massive exit wound). The bullet would've gone through his head, hit the ground and ricocheted into the air (likely what the dust you see in the video was, was pieces of concrete hit by the bullet). You'd bleed from the wound and it would definitely kill you, but it wouldn't be a torrent of blood. There's not a whole lot of blood in the brain either (well, the blood-brain barrier I think it's called). There would be some, of course, but nothing on the level of "pools of blood". It'd probably take a few minutes to be enough to pool (I know a very limited bit about anatomy, so maybe someone else can clarify this point or correct me).

    That's why, in Iraq, the US hated when the insurgents would get close to their sniper positions. The bullets would pass through them (eventually kill them through blood loss or organ damage) but it wouldn't slow down enough to "bounce" off of the bone and cause more internal damage, resulting in an "instant take out".


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    #286
    Mechanical Clocktail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭Mechanical Clocktail


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Have a look at some of the stuff coming out of Syria: blood doesn't explode from heads instantly even at point blank range, heads don't snap back at impact.

    Re the exploding melon, a highly controlled experiment obviously...calibre and bullet type used?

    It doesn't need to explode for blood and particulate matter to scatter out the back of someone's head when they have been shot. I do have knowledge of basic physics fyi and a bullet would impart kinetic energy, although the effect may be more or less noticeable.


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    #287
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    omnithanos wrote: »
    We can google it
    http://www.quora.com/If-someone-was-shot-in-the-head-with-an-AK-47-at-point-blank-range-would-his-her-head-explode
    A .50 (or 12.7mm for the Russian equivalent) round, on the other hand, can and will do that. Heavier round, much larger, much more force behind it.

    A .50 calibre round can burn your skin from 18 inches away, that's how much force one of those have.

    What we're dealing with is most likely a 7.62x39mm (the most common round in use for an AK47). There simply isn't enough force to make their head explode.
    In fact, I know a guy who was shot in the mouth from less than 10 feet away by an AKM, and the round freakishly deflected off of his tooth and went out the side of his cheek, leaving (relatively) superficial wounds. Sometime bullets do weird things.

    10 feet is close, but this shot was more like 2-3 feet away.

    Like I said, there is nothing suspicious about this video.


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    #288
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    It doesn't need to explode for blood and particulate matter to scatter out the back of someone's head when they have been shot. I do have knowledge of basic physics fyi and a bullet would impart kinetic energy, although the effect may be more or less noticeable.

    Not enough to "splatter" a human skull like a watermelon, and the bullet would be moving incredibly quickly at such a close proximity, I don't believe it would cause a massive exit wound.


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    #289
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    It doesn't need to explode for blood and particulate matter to scatter out the back of someone's head when they have been shot. I do have knowledge of basic physics fyi and a bullet would impart kinetic energy, although the effect may be more or less noticeable.

    The human body is not solid. There is absorption but human tissue puts up very little resistance to bullets.


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    #290
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Both are inherently religions of peace.

    And yet we have people commiting acts of violence, due to there own extremists interpretation.
    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Islam, some of its practitioners are engaged in activities that would not be regarded as peaceful, but point to their sacred texts for justification.

    Again, we are talking about extremist movements being lead by Monks, who clearly have an extremist interpretation.


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    #291
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    although the effect may be more or less noticeable.

    So there you have it...


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    #292
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    wes wrote: »
    And yet we have people commiting acts of violence, due to there own extremists interpretation.

    Again, we are talking about extremist movements being lead by Monks, who clearly have an extremist interpretation.

    A nationalist extremism, but they are not quoting (to my knowledge) the scriptures of Buddhism, because there is simply no support for violence.

    It would be somewhat like pointing at Wolfe Tone and saying "Protestantism supports Irish Nationalism". Correlation != Causation (is that the term that would be applicable here?)


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    #293
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    wes wrote: »
    And yet we have people commiting acts of violence, due to there own extremists interpretation.



    Again, we are talking about extremist movements being lead by Monks, who clearly have an extremist interpretation.

    We're taking about religions


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    #294
    Mechanical Clocktail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭Mechanical Clocktail


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    Not enough to "splatter" a human skull like a watermelon, and the bullet would be moving incredibly quickly at such a close proximity, I don't believe it would cause a massive exit wound.

    You're opinion's quite strong on this video, but it comes down to your belief then that the video isn't at all suspicious. That's fair enough. The footage isn't hugely convincing that a man actually got shot. If there was no reporting around the video and it was shown in isolation to someone, would they say for definite that that man was shot or not? From the quality of the footage it remains ambiguous.


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    #295
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Theres two topics running in parallel with the same posters, completely off thead!!


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    #296
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    You're opinion's quite strong on this video, but it comes down to your belief then that the video isn't at all suspicious. That's fair enough. The footage isn't hugely convincing that a man actually got shot. If there was no reporting around the video and it was shown in isolation to someone, would they say for definite that that man was shot or not? From the quality of the footage it remains ambiguous.

    No, my opinion is quite strong on physics and gun mechanics. I'm telling you, there's nothing suspicious about it.

    We have reports that a cop was shot in the head. We have videographic proof that he was shot in the head. What more do you want, his severed head on tv with a close up of the bullet wound and a chance to stick your finger in the hole like Starship Troopers?

    You're right, the film isn't the highest quality, but that's what we have to go on and from what we can see everything checks out. From the recoil of the gun (a blank has less recoil than a regular round), to the effect of the gun hitting the skull, to the debris in the air after the fact.


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    #297
    omnithanos
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 710 ✭✭✭omnithanos


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Theres two topics running in parallel with the same posters, completely off thead!!

    Indeed we should be focusing on the Garland shooting



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    #298
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    A nationalist extremism, but they are not quoting (to my knowledge) the scriptures of Buddhism, because there is simply no support for violence.

    It would be somewhat like pointing at Wolfe Tone and saying "Protestantism supports Irish Nationalism".

    Except that again we are talking about Monks leading what they call a Nationalist/Religious extremist movements. You comparison to Wolfe Tone doesn't make any sense, as he wasn't a cleric leading an explicitly Religious and Nationalist movement, nor do I remember him murdering other people based on there Religion either. The only way for your comparison to be in anyway accurate, is if Wolfe Tone preached that only Catholics could be Irish, which he never did, and murdered non Catholics to pretect the Catholic character of Ireland.
    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    Correlation != Causation (is that the term that would be applicable here?)

    Well, if we are going to apply this to extremist Buddhists, then we can apply it to everyone else then. Again, there extremist, and have clearly managed to justify murder in defense of Buddhism.


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    #299
    Mechanical Clocktail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭Mechanical Clocktail


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    No, my opinion is quite strong on physics and gun mechanics. I'm telling you, there's nothing suspicious about it.

    We have reports that a cop was shot in the head. We have videographic proof that he was shot in the head. What more do you want, his severed head on tv with a close up of the bullet wound and a chance to stick your finger in the hole like Starship Troopers?

    You're right, the film isn't the highest quality, but that's what we have to go on and from what we can see everything checks out. From the recoil of the gun (a blank has less recoil than a regular round), to the effect of the gun hitting the skull, to the debris in the air after the fact.

    I don't want anything, I'm only asking questions. You can't speak with authority on whether the man is clearly shot or not, whether your fetish is guns or not. Referencing action movies doesn't make me feel stupid for asking basic questions either, that's just being cheap on your part. I'm going to take it you're more armchair expert than anything. Knowing about guns is one thing, this is another game entirely. You're basing your expertice on having watched likeleak videos from Syria or something? That's poor training to access anything imo.


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    #300
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    I don't want anything, I'm only asking questions.

    Which I've answered.
    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    You can't speak with authority on whether the man is clearly shot or not, whether your fetish is guns or not.

    Yes, don't trust someone with an understanding of physics, a knowledge of guns and how trauma affects the human body. Trust some idiot in a YouTube video who has found "the truth".

    I don't have a gun fetish, I don't even own any, but I have been around guns, I have family and friends interested in guns, and I understand how they work because I like learning things.

    If anything, my fetish is International Relations and Foreign Policy, with some light sprinkling of nuclear weapons proliferation/usage and COIN to boot.
    Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »
    Referencing action movies doesn't make me feel stupid for asking basic questions either, that's just being cheap on your part. I'm going to take it you're more armchair expert than anything. Knowing about guns is one thing, this is another game entirely. You're basing your expertice on having watched likeleak videos from Syria or something? That's poor training to access anything imo.

    My understanding of basic physics and weapons isn't something to marvel at. If you picked up a book or two, you'd understand it too.

    I'm not the one who recommended liveleak, but I've been around people who have served in the military as combat troops, and I've seen what happens to a human body when it gets hit by a bullet (live firefights are generally not worth watching unless you want to just watch someone lying in the dirt, firing into the air and lying in the dirt some more).

    Your lack of knowledge does not negate my knowledge on the subject. I've even stated I know little about anatomy and welcomed someone to correct me, but two posters backed up my statement.


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    #301
    Mechanical Clocktail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭Mechanical Clocktail


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    Which I've answered.



    Yes, don't trust someone with an understanding of physics, a knowledge of guns and how trauma affects the human body. Trust some idiot in a YouTube video who has found "the truth".

    I don't have a gun fetish, I don't even own any, but I have been around guns, I have family and friends interested in guns, and I understand how they work because I like learning things.

    If anything, my fetish is International Relations and Foreign Policy, with some light sprinkling of nuclear weapons proliferation/usage and COIN to boot.



    My understanding of basic physics and weapons isn't something to marvel at. If you picked up a book or two, you'd understand it too.

    I'm not the one who recommended liveleak, but I've been around people who have served in the military as combat troops, and I've seen what happens to a human body when it gets hit by a bullet (live firefights are generally not worth watching unless you want to just watch someone lying in the dirt, firing into the air and lying in the dirt some more).

    Your lack of knowledge does not negate my knowledge on the subject. I've even stated I know little about anatomy and welcomed someone to correct me, but two posters backed up my statement.

    I know plenty about anatomy, physics etc. and knowing those things doesn't make me an expert on what happens when someone gets shot. You are the definition of an armchair expert and very defensive, as you should be considering your silly claims to knowledge on this subject.

    You're trying too hard to sound edgy, you're clueless.


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