The 2015 All Ireland Senior Football Championship

RoyalCelt

kona wrote: »

Ok.

Read the edit In my reply. Galway leinster champions in 2012, what's wrong with Dublin moving around the others annually for competition sake?

Dirty Dingus McGee

The championship needs to be split into divisions like club championships are in each county.

Longford gained nothing from the hiding they got today and what in my opinion is affecting Leinster football now and has affected Leinster hurling in the past is a lack of morale due to knowing you haven't a hope against the top team in the province.

I would imagine that it would be much better for both players and fans to be looking forward to games against teams of your own ability and having the opportunity to play the top teams when you prove you are good enough rather than being put in to be slaughtered and knowing you are going to lose before the game even begins.

dxhound2005

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The championship needs to be split into divisions like club championships are in each county.

Longford gained nothing from the hiding they got today and what in my opinion is affecting Leinster football now and has affected Leinster hurling in the past is a lack of morale due to knowing you haven't a hope against the top team in the province.

I would imagine that it would be much better for both players and fans to be looking forward to games against teams of your own ability and having the opportunity to play the top teams when you prove you are good enough rather than being put in to be slaughtered and knowing you are going to lose before the game even begins.

Teams get to play against their peers in the league. This is the real elephant in the room which people are ignoring. Because of tradition the knockout competition is the premier competition and the league is secondary. This flies in the face of logic and is not the case in any other sport.

For one hundred years teams got one chance in the championship and if they lost that was it for the year. The qualifiers has given them a second chance. That is enough tinkering with a knockout formula. Teams do not get a second chance in the FAI Cup.

The logical thing would be to make the League the only competition, with home and away matches. Four divisions of eight as at present or if that is too many games eight divisions of four. Followed by a knockout phase for the top teams. The divisions could either be organised on merit as at present or regionally which would give some higher level competition for the weaker counties.

I know this will never happen but there really is no point in trying to artificially engineer a knockout competition into something which it isn't. And it has been proved that there is no interest in secondary championship competitions for losers, either amongst fans or players.

kona

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Read the edit In my reply. Galway leinster champions in 2012, what's wrong with Dublin moving around the others annually for competition sake?

What's right with it? Turn Leinster into a crap championship? Let Meath win something while continuing to be rubbish?

Dirty Dingus McGee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Teams get to play against their peers in the league. This is the real elephant in the room which people are ignoring. Because of tradition the knockout competition is the premier competition and the league is secondary. This flies in the face of logic and is not the case in any other sport.

For one hundred years teams got one chance in the championship and if they lost that was it for the year. The qualifiers has given them a second chance. That is enough tinkering with a knockout formula. Teams do not get a second chance in the FAI Cup.

The logical thing would be to make the League the only competition, with home and away matches. Four divisions of eight as at present or if that is too many games eight divisions of four. Followed by a knockout phase for the top teams. The divisions could either be organised on merit as at present or regionally which would give some higher level competition for the weaker counties.

I know this will never happen but there really is no point in trying to artificially engineer a knockout competition into something which it isn't. And it has been proved that there is no interest in secondary championship competitions for losers, either amongst fans or players.

I'd get rid of the league and merge league and championship.Two divisions with 16 teams (with 2 groups in each division) and have playoffs to decide who wins the competition and relegation and promotion.start the competition in mid April early May.

As a fan I would much prefer to go and see Offaly play against teams of our own level and play against the top teams when we are good enough.The problems is that teams only get to play against teams of their own level during the winter and spring when there shouldn't really be any matches and when people don't have as much interest in going to matches.

IsaacWunder

The point is the all Ireland championship has become an oxymoron, and unless some form of open draw or points based league is integrated into the system it's going to stay that way.

KevIRL

Worth mentioning that the 2nd tier competition in hurling saw a hugely one sided game at the weekend. Kerry 6-27 Kildare 0-9. This was a semi final too. So perhaps not the golden bullet solution that is being made out...

RoyalCelt

kona wrote: »

What's right with it? Turn Leinster into a crap championship? Let Meath win something while continuing to be rubbish?

Enough of your condescending bs. How is a team that finishes 3rd in division 2 the past 2 years a rubbish outfit?

How is a championship that would have at least 4 winners a decade worse than a competition that will have 1 winner a decade?

You remind me of the dinausors that run these competitions in the first place.

kona

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Enough of your condescending bs. How is a team that finishes 3rd in division 2 the past 2 years a rubbish outfit?

How is a championship that would have at least 4 winners a decade worse than a competition that will have 1 winner a decade?

You remind me of the dinausors that run these competitions in the first place.

From a dublin point of view They are rubbish because they came 3rd in division two.

I'd suggest these teams go train a bit harder or invest in underage instead of just removing the most successful team. Absoloute loser talk.

Dirty Dingus McGee

KevIRL wrote: »

Worth mentioning that the 2nd tier competition in hurling saw a hugely one sided game at the weekend. Kerry 6-27 Kildare 0-9. This was a semi final too. So perhaps not the golden bullet solution that is being made out...

It won't solve everything but it will lead to more competitive matches for all counties at the right time of the year.Football is a summer sport yet most football is played during the winter and spring when the weather is far more likely to be bad.

Darkest Horse

KevIRL wrote: »

Worth mentioning that the 2nd tier competition in hurling saw a hugely one sided game at the weekend. Kerry 6-27 Kildare 0-9. This was a semi final too. So perhaps not the golden bullet solution that is being made out...

Good point but that will happen from time to time. Didn't Kildare actually beat Kerry last year? Had Longford played the Dubs last year, the result would have been the same.

Borders no.2

Was up in Croke Park today to watch the hurling mainly but waited for the first half of the football but what struck me leaving at half time was the number of Dublin fans who were leaving and in all honesty who could blame them. It was shooting practice pretty much from the off. Dublin's training sessions would be far more intense I'd imagine. The game benefited neither team and the atmosphere was non-existent. I don't want to get into the debate on Dublin in Croker or not but more and more people will continue to find different ways of spending their time and money until the August bank holiday weekend unless the GAA get serious about pitching teams at the right level.

Borders no.2

KevIRL wrote: »

Worth mentioning that the 2nd tier competition in hurling saw a hugely one sided game at the weekend. Kerry 6-27 Kildare 0-9. This was a semi final too. So perhaps not the golden bullet solution that is being made out...

Yes but Kildare beat Kerry last year in the final. In general those competitions generally have competitive matches. I don't think there is a golden bullet solution either. There is a wide disparity even between some mid-lower tier teams and say a team like Carlow.

The thoughts of Dublin somehow being drawn against Carlow doesn't bear thinking about.

Fr Tod Umptious

Very Bored wrote: »

I'd suggest that for evidence whether that would work look at how regional rugby has failed in Wales. The key difference is that in Ireland the rugby provinces are real, historical provinces and people have local pride in them. In Wales they fabricated teams and expected people to follow them and have local pride in them regardless of how conceived the idea was. Its the same with the GAA. People want to win their province because that's where they are from. Applying the idea to hurling because as that's my sport I can talk about it more easily but the same idea applies. Fourteen teams enter the All Ireland series each year, now, split those teams into groups of seven each say. I would still rather win a Leinster championship that consisted of Kilkenny, Carlow, Westmeath, Laois, Dublin and Offaly (Antrim, Galway) than I would one that consisted of Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipperary etc. because the Leinster championship is the Leinster championship. Kilkenny is a Leinster county and first off I want to be champions of my province, then hopefully All Ireland champions.

I think you are totally missing the posters point about four eight team regions by comparing them to rugby.

No one is suggesting making up or merging teams here.

Four x 8 team regions would mean that all teams need to play the same amount of games to win, and via the back door you will not have situations where the team that lost a preliminary round would join at round 1, the same round as the team that beat them could possibly join.

And this arrangement could be for fixture making in the senior championship only.
So teams would not be permanently removed from their provinces for underage, club etc.

It would not solve a problem like Dublin v Longford today but it would solve problems like a top 4 team (Donegal) playing 6 games to get to an All Ireland final v other top 4 teams (Mayo,Kerry) who only have to play 4 games.

kona

Lads I don't think Dublin v Longford was a problem, it's just a mismatch these things happen, eg Kerry v Kildare there today.

I think a extra championship for teams knocked out would be beneficial, gives them something to aim for and also can provide good entertainment on a Saturday evening. Some back door games can be fantastic.

Fr Tod Umptious

kona wrote: »

Lads I don't think Dublin v Longford was a problem, it's just a mismatch these things happen, eg Kerry v Kildare there today.

I think a extra championship for teams knocked out would be beneficial, gives them something to aim for and also can provide good entertainment on a Saturday evening. Some back door games can be fantastic.

It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and it lasted from '04 to '08 after which it was disbanded for lack of interest.

Next ?

Stoner

Have to say between RoyalCelt and kona, some interesting points being made in between the "condescending" and bitter posts.

Meath are off the pace with kerry, Dublin, donegal, monaghan, Tyrone and mayo.

I think it would make the LFC a very weak championship if Dublin left. Yes it clearly would suit Meath, and clearly RoyalCelt wants funding for Navan and to see Meath win again.

However. It might suit Dublin to get harder games earlier, and it might help some of the teams like kildare or Meath. But that would be it. So I see it as a bit of a Meath solution to a problem that would benefit Meath and maybe kildare the most.

Clearly there needs to be some funding diverted to develop the game in Meath and the other counties like Longford and carlow, kildare are in a bad place too.

Splitting or removing Dublin is not a solution, it's just damaging a county that is stronger than the others, it won't make them any better prepared for Mayo or Kerry.

The money needs to be diverted to these other counties in recognition of the fall of great footballing counties like Offaly,Welford, Kildare and Meath and other counties that have been in better positions like Westmeath, Laois and louth.

Developing and investment is the answer IMHO, not a plan to limit your biggest enemy or weaken a county because you just don't like them but dress it up as something else.

The fall was fast, I'd hope and expect that the show could get back on the road quickly.
But the funds need to be pointed in that direction by the council.

TBH, I've always liked Meath football, I've cheared them on when they beat Dublin in the past, always difficult to stomach though.

But I'd say at this time looking at ulster that Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan, Down, Derry and possibly Armagh would all do a decent number on Meath in the championship. Has that ever been the case before, what funding do those counties get? What is the population compared to Meath ?

It might make winning a lenister championship easier but what then? do we assume that the winners will get better because they won ? Pretty hopeful IMHO.

All in all I'd say that the best fix for this in lenister is less money for Dublin and more money for the other counties once they spend it on restructure and development and not on stadiums so that that the guys in Navan can have a shiny stadium to watch poor quality football.
Nothing against Navan it's a fine stadium, but is won't score goals for you against Mayo, or stop you getting a hiding from Donegal or Kerry.

The money would be better spent on coaches. IMHO

kona

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and it lasted from '04 to '08 after which it was disbanded for lack of interest.

Next ?

Well then people can stfu about Dublin.

kona

Stoner wrote: »

Have to say between RoyalCelt and kona, some interesting points being made in between the "condescending" and bitter posts.

Meath are off the pace with kerry, Dublin, donegal, monaghan, Tyrone and mayo.

I think it would make the LFC a very weak championship if Dublin left. Yes it clearly would suit Meath, and clearly RoyalCelt wants funding for Navan and to see Meath win again.

However. It might suit Dublin to get harder games earlier, and it might help some of the teams like kildare or Meath. But that would be it. So I see it as a bit of a Meath solution to a problem that would benefit Meath and maybe kildare the most.

Clearly there needs to be some funding diverted to develop the game in Meath and the other counties like Longford and carlow, kildare are in a bad place too.

Splitting or removing Dublin is not a solution, it's just damaging a county that is stronger than the others, it won't make them any better prepared for Mayo or Kerry.

The money needs to be diverted to these other counties in recognition of the fall of great footballing counties like Offaly,Welford, Kildare and Meath and other counties that have been in better positions like Westmeath, Laois and louth.

Developing and investment is the answer IMHO, not a plan to limit your biggest enemy or weaken a county because you just don't like them but dress it up as something else.

The fall was fast, I'd hope and expect that the show could get back on the road quickly.
But the funds need to be pointed in that direction by the council.

TBH, I've always liked Meath football, I've cheared them on when they beat Dublin in the past, always difficult to stomach though.

But I'd say at this time looking at ulster that Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan, Down, Derry and possibly Armagh would all do a decent number on Meath in the championship. Has that ever been the case before, what funding do those counties get? What is the population compared to Meath ?

It might make winning a lenister championship easier but what then? do we assume that the winners will get better because they won ? Pretty hopeful IMHO.

All in all I'd say that the best fix for this in lenister is less money for Dublin and more money for the other counties once they spend it on restructure and development and not on stadiums so that that the guys in Navan can have a shiny stadium to watch poor quality football.
Nothing against Navan it's a fine stadium, but is won't score goals for you against Mayo, or stop you getting a hiding from Donegal or Kerry.

The money would be better spent on coaches. IMHO

I'd rather go back and play Meath when they were a formidable team with the graham geraghtys than go hockey them on a random Sunday in June.

Zero fun on the hill watchin that.

Darkest Horse

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I think you are totally missing the posters point about four eight team regions by comparing them to rugby.

No one is suggesting making up or merging teams here.

Four x 8 team regions would mean that all teams need to play the same amount of games to win, and via the back door you will not have situations where the team that lost a preliminary round would join at round 1, the same round as the team that beat them could possibly join.

And this arrangement could be for fixture making in the senior championship only.
So teams would not be permanently removed from their provinces for underage, club etc.

It would not solve a problem like Dublin v Longford today but it would solve problems like a top 4 team (Donegal) playing 6 games to get to an All Ireland final v other top 4 teams (Mayo,Kerry) who only have to play 4 games.

And you retain local rivalries. I believe there is a healthy rivalry between Waterford and Kilkenny yet they are in different provinces. North, south, east and west would retain that.

Borders no.2

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and it lasted from '04 to '08 after which it was disbanded for lack of interest.

Next ?

Tru but the main reason that failed in my opinion was that there was no avenue back to the championship for the teams who won the competition. They were all out of the championship and it was really just a case of the team who put in a half arsed effort won it.

A competition that would allow the winners back in at say Round 4 of the qualifiers could generate some good games and give some lesser know team a chance of a good summer.

Longford have taken scalps like Derry on a couple of occasions, Antrim have beaten Galway, Carlow beat Louth etc. in recent years so there is a lot to be said for giving these sort of teams a chance to play in a competitive competition and come back into the championships off a run of a few victories with the hopes of upsetting someone down the line.

The likes of Leitrim beat Wicklow a few years back in a qualifier and it makes it all worthwhile to get a couple of wins like that. There has to be a championship structure that would minimise the number of routs that have become routine in recent years.

When the qualifiers were introduced it really gave a boost to teams like Limerick, Westmeath, Sligo, Roscommon etc. who had some very good victories in the back door.

There is always going to be a few elite counties, the names may change every so often but there needs to be some encouragement given to counties at a lower level.

dxhound2005

Stoner wrote: »

The money needs to be diverted to these other counties in recognition of the fall of great footballing counties like Offaly,Welford, Kildare and Meath and other counties that have been in better positions like Westmeath, Laois and louth.

Wexford last won an All Ireland in 1918, Kildare 1928, Louth 1957, Laois and Westmeath never. Offaly shone brightly briefly with 3 wins between 1971 and 1982.

This is not some modern malaise, Leinster was always about Dublin with Meath a strong second. Just as Munster has always been Kerry and Cork and Connacht Galway and Mayo. There were periods in the past when Dublin had complete dominance for years, but Meath always made a comeback.

I don't see what it has to do with money, nor the format of the championship.

kona

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Wexford last won an All Ireland in 1918, Kildare 1928, Louth 1957, Laois and Westmeath never. Offaly shone brightly briefly with 3 wins between 1971 and 1982.

This is not some modern malaise, Leinster was always about Dublin with Meath a strong second. Just as Munster has always been Kerry and Cork and Connacht Galway and Mayo. There were periods in the past when Dublin had complete dominance for years, but Meath always made a comeback.

I don't see what it has to do with money, nor the format of the championship.

Maybe it's gone too serious , it's a amateur game, Dublin are essentially a pro team, I'd say it's the same with Donegal and Kerry . Maybe people need to take a step back.

dxhound2005

kona wrote: »

Maybe it's gone too serious , it's a amateur game, Dublin are essentially a pro team, I'd say it's the same with Donegal and Kerry . Maybe people need to take a step back.

That is nothing new either. The reason that Rule 11 (I think it's Rule 11) had to be introduced in the 1950's was that teams like Kerry and Cavan were compensating players for loss of wages to bring them into training camps as soon as they qualified for the All Ireland Final. Rule 11 outlaws full time training but that was never defined. So you have teams going off for a week to Spain and Portugal for training camps.

In other threads people were saying that GAA players are as fit as English Premiership players and there was much mention of something called "elite" players. Now you are saying that Dublin are professional. How can this fitness level and elite professional status be achieved by part timers?

RoyalCelt

kona wrote: »

From a dublin point of view They are rubbish because they came 3rd in division two.

I'd suggest these teams go train a bit harder or invest in underage instead of just removing the most successful team. Absoloute loser talk.

Ok so you are a dub.would explain the rotten attitude you have. Just so you know a lot of Dublin fans are not happy with the state of their province. And many more don't even bother going until the final.

Anyway you're making a little progress. You are right, we need equal investment in the other counties underage. However the problem is the GAA give Dublin more money every year then all other 31 counties combined. Not really surprising the gulf in class is it when they have all the advantages. Yet another reason why Dublin which is a region more than a county should be rotated around all 4 provinces as it's not fair to have them damaging any one province by winning it every year.

RoyalCelt

Stoner wrote: »

Have to say between RoyalCelt and kona, some interesting points being made in between the "condescending" and bitter posts.

Meath are off the pace with kerry, Dublin, donegal, monaghan, Tyrone and mayo.

I think it would make the LFC a very weak championship if Dublin left. Yes it clearly would suit Meath, and clearly RoyalCelt wants funding for Navan and to see Meath win again.

However. It might suit Dublin to get harder games earlier, and it might help some of the teams like kildare or Meath. But that would be it. So I see it as a bit of a Meath solution to a problem that would benefit Meath and maybe kildare the most.

Clearly there needs to be some funding diverted to develop the game in Meath and the other counties like Longford and carlow, kildare are in a bad place too.

Splitting or removing Dublin is not a solution, it's just damaging a county that is stronger than the others, it won't make them any better prepared for Mayo or Kerry.

The money needs to be diverted to these other counties in recognition of the fall of great footballing counties like Offaly,Welford, Kildare and Meath and other counties that have been in better positions like Westmeath, Laois and louth.

Developing and investment is the answer IMHO, not a plan to limit your biggest enemy or weaken a county because you just don't like them but dress it up as something else.

The fall was fast, I'd hope and expect that the show could get back on the road quickly.
But the funds need to be pointed in that direction by the council.

TBH, I've always liked Meath football, I've cheared them on when they beat Dublin in the past, always difficult to stomach though.

But I'd say at this time looking at ulster that Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan, Down, Derry and possibly Armagh would all do a decent number on Meath in the championship. Has that ever been the case before, what funding do those counties get? What is the population compared to Meath ?

It might make winning a lenister championship easier but what then? do we assume that the winners will get better because they won ? Pretty hopeful IMHO.

All in all I'd say that the best fix for this in lenister is less money for Dublin and more money for the other counties once they spend it on restructure and development and not on stadiums so that that the guys in Navan can have a shiny stadium to watch poor quality football.
Nothing against Navan it's a fine stadium, but is won't score goals for you against Mayo, or stop you getting a hiding from Donegal or Kerry.

The money would be better spent on coaches. IMHO

I respect your post and agree with it all except the assumptions about me. Trust me If I could move meath to ulster or connaught I would. I'm a passionate gaa man so it hurts me to see what has happened. I'm the kinda gaa fan thar goes to a lot of neutral games every year. I go to munster/leinster hurling games and ulster football matches. I used to go to many leinster matches not involving meath and would do anything to get back to the days when you could watch laois v westmeath /Kildare in a leinster final. fact is Dublin has killed it for being too good.

2010 gave us a brief glimpse of what we could have. Meath shocked Dublin and all of a sudden a team like louth have a chance. The Leinster final had an amazing atmosphere and louth should have won. If they had played Dublin in the final they'd not have come close. 100 years of Dublin hammerings has a serious mental affect on counties like louth. Unless meath sort themselves out they will go the same way.

It's very depressing seeing people in the community not give a damn about their county. But who can blame them.

Galway were moved into leinster to shake things up in the hurling so I don't see why dunlin playing in all 4 provinces can't happen. And yeah if meath did start to dominate I'd expect them to follow the dubs doing the rounds.

There are too many passionate gaa counties in leinster to be beaten into obsecurity.

Fr Tod Umptious

Borders no.2 wrote: »

Tru but the main reason that failed in my opinion was that there was no avenue back to the championship for the teams who won the competition. They were all out of the championship and it was really just a case of the team who put in a half arsed effort won it.

A competition that would allow the winners back in at say Round 4 of the qualifiers could generate some good games and give some lesser know team a chance of a good summer.

Longford have taken scalps like Derry on a couple of occasions, Antrim have beaten Galway, Carlow beat Louth etc. in recent years so there is a lot to be said for giving these sort of teams a chance to play in a competitive competition and come back into the championships off a run of a few victories with the hopes of upsetting someone down the line.

The likes of Leitrim beat Wicklow a few years back in a qualifier and it makes it all worthwhile to get a couple of wins like that. There has to be a championship structure that would minimise the number of routs that have become routine in recent years.

When the qualifiers were introduced it really gave a boost to teams like Limerick, Westmeath, Sligo, Roscommon etc. who had some very good victories in the back door.

There is always going to be a few elite counties, the names may change every so often but there needs to be some encouragement given to counties at a lower level.

The Tommy Murphy cup was for teams knocked out of the early rounds of the qualifiers.
So they already had a avenue back to the championship but lost it already.

You can't over complicate things either.

The answer is either 4 x 8 team "regions" with the current back door or 8 x 4 team groups with no back door.

kona

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Ok so you are a dub.would explain the rotten attitude you have. Just so you know a lot of Dublin fans are not happy with the state of their province. And many more don't even bother going until the final.

Anyway you're making a little progress. You are right, we need equal investment in the other counties underage. However the problem is the GAA give Dublin more money every year then all other 31 counties combined. Not really surprising the gulf in class is it when they have all the advantages. Yet another reason why Dublin which is a region more than a county should be rotated around all 4 provinces as it's not fair to have them damaging any one province by winning it every year.

Your getting a rotten attitude because you want to remove my county from it's province just to suit your own county.

Galway is hurling in Leinster because there is no Connaught shc. Where as the is a Leinster sfc for Dublin to compete in.

Your own county needs to ask itself why they are so far behind not just Dublin but a number of other counties.

fullstop

Bret Hart wrote: »

That was a joy to watch from Dublin,they ooze absolute class. It's going too be hard to stop them this year again.

Longford where lucky that it was under the 30 point mark that they got beaten by. It's not often that Longford get to play one of the big boys,so you could understand them wanting to have it being played in Croke Park,so they could have a day out and get some much needed experience for there next games.

COYBIB.

6.5/10. Points deducted for lack of subtlety.

threeball

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The Tommy Murphy cup was for teams knocked out of the early rounds of the qualifiers.
So they already had a avenue back to the championship but lost it already.

You can't over complicate things either.

The answer is either 4 x 8 team "regions" with the current back door or 8 x 4 team groups with no back door.

I don'tthink that is the answer.

Imo the answer is to scrap the provincials, have 3 proper league divisions that run almost the length of the championship allow all teams to develop and to have an open draw champo where the mental disadvantage of playing the same counties year in year out is a thing of the past. Until we see that we're tinkering around the edges and the status quo will prevail.