A chance to scrap the Angelus - Nutella, Croissants and Pineapples.

lazygal

It's the equivalent of Catholic schools publishing stuff on how to be inclusive. "We really believe you're going to hell but we'll keep that on the down low. Meanwhile here's Alive O!! It's fun and dresses up indoctrination in a creepily childish way!!"

SpaceTime

lazygal wrote: »

It's the equivalent of Catholic schools publishing stuff on how to be inclusive. "We really believe you're going to hell but we'll keep that on the down low. Meanwhile here's Alive O!! It's fun and dresses up indoctrination in a creepily childish way!!"

It's more like "a begrudging tolerance with the odd attempt to brainwash you" than "inclusivity".

If you're nice enough to the heathens you might be able to convert them!

One of my relatives is currently getting the "would you not baptise her? The poor child will be excluded from her Irish roots! She won't get her lovely day out when all the normal little girls are making their communion. She won't be able to go to a normal school. You're making her different because you're just being awkward".

This is being constantly pushed by various "liberal" people at an absolutely non religious relative of mine and his non Irish, non catholic wife who is finding it all coming across as xenophobic and a bit racist rather than "quirky mad Irishness".

People in Ireland don't understand how this kind of stuff makes you feel unwelcome in your own country.

RTE is just doing exactly the same thing by trying to sneak a bit of religion in ...

Peregrinus

Well, that cuts both ways, surely? Can't those bothered by the angelus deal with the problem by switching the TV off, going out, enjoying the birdsong, yadda, yadda, yadda?

Aren't there really two separate issues here?

First, RTE, like most religious broadcasters, had an explicit mandate for religious broadcasting, and the angelus is only a small part of what they do in that regard. You have regular broadcasts of religious services - mostly Catholic, but also other Christian and occasionally non-Christian. And around the services is wrapped rolling discusson of religious/spiritual/ethical issues. Separately, you've got religious documentary/current affairs broadcasting like Life Matters, and you have series like Gay Byrne's Meaning of Life which acheived some notice on this Board a couple of months back when an interview with Stephen Fry was broadcast.

Right. Those who are terrified with embarrassment at the thought that Ireland might do anything in the teeniest way different from how our betters in the UK do things UK will find nothing to alarm them here, since this is pretty much what the BBC does. It's also pretty much what the Australian Broadcasting Corporation does. I'd imagine it's a fairly common model for countries whose notion of public service broadcasting is influenced by the UK example.

So, unless you're a fairly militant and intolerant secularist who believes that non-secular questions should simply be banned from the airways, or at least in public service broadcasting, it's hard to see that there's anything to complain about here. You could perhaps argue that the content of RTE's religious broadcasting is not sufficiently diverse, and there should be more emphasis on non-Christian and non-religious perspectives. But that doesn't provide much foundation for objecting to the angelus as such.

Which raises the second question; is there anything about the angelus in particular to attract such ire? The angelus is, of course, not a discussion or an analysis; it's simply a religiously-motivated exercise presented without comment or criticism. But exactly the same is true of any religious service that is broadcast, and that happens all the time. And, the point has been made that they don't broadcast the angelus in the UK, close readers will have detected that I don't have much respect for this as an argument for saying that we shouldn't do it in Ireland. And, as an argument, it has even less legs when we reflect that, while the BBC doesn't broadcast a daily angelus, it does have a twice-weekly broadcast of church bells ringing, which comes from a different church every week.

frostyjacks

SpaceTime wrote: »

You can also just switch the TV off and go out and enjoy the birdsong in the garden, have a cup of tea, walk the dog, put on some chill music, have a bath, go for a jog, go for a swim, chill out over a nice cup of coffee and watch the world go by... Or whatever it is you find relaxing!

Does RTE need to tell you when to take a chill out moment using a weird recording of annoyingly irregularly mistimed slow ringing church bells?!

Exactly. So why the clamour to scrap it when people can just switch off or change channel? It's part of our identity, like Tayto cheese & onion crisps or saying bye bye bye bye bye at the end of phone call.

Hotblack Desiato

frostyjacks wrote: »

Exactly. So why the clamour to scrap it when people can just switch off or change channel?

That doesn't answer the question of why there is a need to have it at all. 'It's always been like that' isn't an answer either.

It's part of our identity, like Tayto cheese & onion crisps or saying bye bye bye bye bye at the end of phone call.

But RTE don't give Tayto a free minute-long ad on radio and TV twice a day.

SpaceTime

I can think of no other public service broadcaster other than perhaps in the middle east where religious calls to prayer are broadcast twice daily.

At least in the middle east they wouldn't attempt to dress them up as something they're not.

The fact that RTE is tying to pretend this is not religious programming is what I find the most disturbing.

Honestly it's no different from the BBC broadcasting a minute of an orchestra playing a hymn before the news twice a day.

It's not going to happen because they've more cop on than to do that.

They present religious programming like Songs of Praise etc very much as what it is and they do not inject it into the schedule willy nilly.

Inserting a 1 min call to prayer at key prime time slots when viewership is at its peak and people are tuning into see the news is evangelisation and advertising, it's not a public service for the Catholic community.

A prayer at bed time is another example of this kind of thing. It's not PSB, it's the channel itself actually blessing itself basically.

There's a very big difference between doing BBc style religious programming and actually making the station itself partake in a particular religion as part of its imaging / branding.

Hotblack Desiato

SpaceTime wrote: »

There's a very big difference between doing BBc style religious programming and actually making the station itself partake in a particular religion as part of its imaging / branding.

It should be remembered that RTE's logo was, for decades, a religious one.

Sam Kade

People who are watching rte at 6pm must have sad lives and people who complain about rte have on are even more sad :rolleyes:

SpaceTime

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It should be remembered that RTE's logo was, for decades, a religious one.

One of their studios was also fully consecrated and Telefís Éireann was launched complete with a live on air blessing from none less than archbishop JC McQuaid.

SpaceTime

Sam Kade wrote: »

People who are watching rte at 6pm must have sad lives and people who complain about rte have on are even more sad :rolleyes:

I actually rarely watch TV at that time of the day but I'm regularly hit with Mary Wilson going "and now we will pause for the angelus" in the middle of prime time current affairs radio while I'm stuck in the car. Leaves me scrambling to reach for the Today FM button as I find 1 minute of mistimed bongs extremely annoying.

Skrynesaver

I guess the reason it irks me is that it comes across as a territory marking exercise masked as "a moment of quiet reflection" (how do they sell that one with all the banging going on in the background?) Work occasionally drags me to Muslim countries and the call to prayer there is very similar, but at least they don't have the nerve to pretend not to be theocracies.

frostyjacks

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That doesn't answer the question of why there is a need to have it at all. 'It's always been like that' isn't an answer either..

I think there is a need for people to have at least one moment of reflection during the day. It's not really a call to prayer anymore, it's 60 seconds of calm and meditation, they've done away with the Catholic imagery.

Peregrinus

SpaceTime wrote: »

I can think of no other public service broadcaster other than perhaps in the middle east where religious calls to prayer are broadcast twice daily.

The BBC, as already pointed out, broadcasts church bells ringing twice weekly.

SpaceTime wrote: »

There's a very big difference between doing BBc style religious programming and actually making the station itself partake in a particular religion as part of its imaging / branding.

The church bells are up there with the shipping forecast as a endearing and iconic feature of the BBC brand.

The bottom line is that "BBC-style religious programming" includes a broadcast which is as near as dammit to the RTE's angelus broadcast - church bells ringing as a call to prayer. They do it twice a week as opposed to twice a day. On the other hand, they do it for longer each time. I struggle to see those differences as being very signficant issues of principle.

Sam Kade

SpaceTime wrote: »

I actually rarely watch TV at that time of the day but I'm regularly hit with Mary Wilson going "and now we will pause for the angelus" in the middle of prime time current affairs radio while I'm stuck in the car. Leaves me scrambling to reach for the Today FM button as I find 1 minute of mistimed bongs extremely annoying.

Well you're not sad then just annoyed by bell rings.

SpaceTime

It's very much "attention heathens: this is Irish Catholic television ... Now heads down and let us pass the collection plate ehmm I mean TV license demand .. This will be silent collection".

Delirium

frostyjacks wrote: »

I think there is a need for people to have at least one moment of reflection during the day. It's not really a call to prayer anymore, it's 60 seconds of calm and meditation, they've done away with the Catholic imagery.

Might want to tell RTE that

Angelus: a Roman Catholic devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary, said at morning, noon, and sunset.

Huntergonzo

Can we not reach a compromise here, how about every time the big stupid angelus dong rings a nice big pair of titts bang together on tv. I think this would keep most people happy and imagine what it would do for viewing figures :-)

frostyjacks

SW wrote: »

Might want to tell RTE that

Angelus: a Roman Catholic devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary, said at morning, noon, and sunset.

I think you're confusing Angelus (the devotion) with The Angelus (tv and radio programme). They are two separate things.

SpaceTime

Bear in mind that a lot of people in Britain feel BBC is far too heavily dosed with religion and also one flavour of religion mostly too.

The fact that BBC spends a considerable % of its schedule pondering its religious beliefs doesn't make what RTE does right.

The UK is by definition a theocratic state, a tolerant one but it still has the head of state appointed by God and simultaneously head of the established church and the Church of England Bishops still form part of the legislature as the Lords Spiritual in the upper house to name but a few things.

The British like to overlook that and laugh at American evangelicals being loud about religion (in a strictly secular state) or point out how conservative Ireland is but, the reality is they're the official theocracy on paper at least.

We're *supposedly* a Republic and bringing in elements of a theocracy kind of just a tiny bit flies in the face of what are normally considered to be republican values.

It's like Ireland just sticks the word republic up because it sounded all "rad" and sure aren't we just like those French revolutionaries and the Americans and all anti-British establishment...

Then we just tippexed out all references to royal and scribbled on holy Catholic and lashed up a bit of green paint on the post boxes and then out religioused them by maintaining an extreme version of the 1950s until about 1996.

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

I think there is a need for people to have at least one moment of reflection during the day. It's not really a call to prayer anymore, it's 60 seconds of calm and meditation, they've done away with the Catholic imagery.

Why? I can select my own time and place for one moment of reflection, if I need it. I don't need RTE selecting it for me, at a time and with bells that are the catholic call to prayer.

Not to mention that its two moments a day.

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

I think you're confusing Angelus (the devotion) with The Angelus (tv and radio programme). They are two separate things.

Remarkable then that its broadcast with the Angelus bells, at the times Catholics say the Angelus if they are two separate things.

Peregrinus

SW wrote: »

Might want to tell RTE that

Angelus: a Roman Catholic devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary, said at morning, noon, and sunset.

Except that what RTE broadcasts, and calls the angelus, is not the "devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary"; it's the sound of a church bell ringing. You must know this.

They chose it, in fact, precisely because it wasn't a prayer, but a call to prayer, which could be interpreted as the listener chose. If I recall correctly, there was a campaign at the time to get them to broadcast a daily rosary, which they felt would be inappropriate.

According to Wikipedia, both the Church of Ireland and the Presbyterian Church in Ireland have supported the continued broadcasting of the angelus, which suggests that they, at least, don't see it as an exercise in Catholic imperialism.

SpaceTime

And of course the Church of Ireland & Presbyterians are radically different with their very slightly different bells.

Of course the C of I in particular would support this. They're more or less the Catholic Church with a slight tweak here and there.

Same bells, architecture, most of the same prayers, similar ceremonies ... In fact you'd find most of their ceremonies relatively similar to the point you'd be hard pressed to tell which was which.

I'd hardly reckon the fact that two other remarkably similar churches supported their closest relatives as meaning that the RTE policy is right.

It's a bit like asking Apple, Google & Microsoft for their opinions on Irish tax policy ... You'll hardly get much criticism!

How do atheists, non religious feel? How do Irish Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews & other non Christians feel?

Huntergonzo

The angelus is a catholic call to prayer though, denying that is just petty and it's not even an interesting debating point. But I can see why RTE refuses to be neutral and get rid of it, more older people tend to watch RTE 1, Catholicism would be very popular among old people, old people are also very fond of voting.........DON'T piss off old people!

Peregrinus

SpaceTime wrote: »

Bear in mind that a lot of people in Britain feel BBC is far too heavily dosed with religion and also one flavour of religion mostly too.


The fact that BBC spends a considerable % of its schedule pondering its religious beliefs doesn't make what RTE does right . . .

Gosh, you're gliding rather smoothly from "I can think of no other public service broadcaster . . ." to dismissing the relevance of a prominent public service broadcaster that you probably know quite well.

Similarly, you glide rather smoothly from "the angelus is a Catholic devotion" to "of course the CofI and the Presbyterians would support" (despite the fact that neither of them has any tradition of saying this devotion). Yes, they would, spacetime, despite the fact that (as huntergonzo rightly points out) it is a characteristically Catholic practice. They are more broadminded and tolerant than you, and don't object to the representation in public service broadcasting of traditions which are not their own.

I'm not saying that broadcasting the angelus must be right if it's similar to something the BBC does. (In fact, I'm not saying that broadcasting the angelus is right at all.) I'm saying that arguments which begin "I know of no other public service broadcaster . . ." are not terribly well-researched or terribly persuasive. There may be good reasons to oppose the broadcast of the angelus, but this isn't one of them.

I get that the ringing of the bells (whether as a call to attend service, or as a call to say the angelus) is basically a religious exercise. That isn't enough, in my opinion, to establish that a public service broadcaster with a mandate for religious programming shouldn't be carrying it. There may be a case for saying that they shouldn't carry it, but the case has to be made, and it has to be credible.

There's been a lot of people posting to say that they find the broadcast strange or annoying but, hey, a good deal of what RTE broadcasts annoys me; that's not an argument for banning it. And there have been posters claiming that the broadcast is "an insult to secularism"; it seems to me that if they think that's a reason for taking it off the airwaves they're looking for the secularists' equivalent of a blasphemy law. All religious broadcasting is an insult to secularism; secularists have to toughen up and not demand that the law protect them from having their feelings outraged.

frostyjacks

lazygal wrote: »

Remarkable then that its broadcast with the Angelus bells, at the times Catholics say the Angelus if they are two separate things.

Well, they are two separate things. It is possible for two or more things to share the same name. If you were asked to pick up roses from the shop, would you get chocolates or flowers? Or wonder how remarkable it is that they share the same name?

SpaceTime

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gosh, you're gliding rather smoothly from "I can think of no other public service broadcaster . . ." to dismissing the relevance of a prominent public service broadcaster that you probably know quite well.

I'm not saying that broadcasting the angelus must be right if it's similar to something the BBC does. (In fact, I'm not saying that broadcasting the angelus is right at all.) I'm saying that arguments which begin "I know of no other public service broadcaster . . ." are not terribly well-researched or terribly persuasive. There may be good reasons to oppose the broadcast of the angelus, but this isn't one of them.

I get that the ringing of the bells (whether as a call to attend service, or as a call to say the angelus) is basically a religious exercise. That isn't enough, in my opinion, to establish that a public service broadcaster with a mandate for religious programming shouldn't be carrying it. There may be a case for saying that they shouldn't carry it, but the case has to be made, and it has to be credible. There's been a lot of people posting to say that they find the broadcast strange or annoying but, hey, a good deal of what RTE broadcasts annoys me; that's not an argument for banning it. And there have been posters claiming that the broadcast is "an insult to secularism"; it seems to me that if they think that's a reason for taking it off the airwaves they're looking for the secularists' equivalent of a blasphemy law. All religious broadcasting is an insult to secularism; secularists have to toughen up and not demand that others protect them from having their feelings outraged.

I still don't think the BBC slips in a "quick pray" dressed up as a pause for reflection twice a day before the news!

I do think the BBC has far too much religious programming though and I don't agree with how it operates in that regard.

I've never seen any other PSB do what RTE does with calls to prayer though. I think RTE has taken the BBC model and out religioused even the Beeb by actually branding itself as religious.

The Angelus on TV is practically merged into the pre news ident package (station branding)

For a decades a cross also formed part of RTE's logo too.

It's a very, very odd broadcaster by western standards.

Huntergonzo

SpaceTime wrote: »

How do atheists, non religious feel? How do Irish Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews & other non Christians feel?

Suppose how we've always felt by what is made patently clear by the state = you're state is catholic, catholics will get all the preferences because of their credulity, we are NOT a neutral state and if don't like it f off!!

Thank you mother Ireland for being so inclusive.

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

Well, they are two separate things. It is possible for two or more things to share the same name. If you were asked to pick up roses from the shop, would you get chocolates or flowers? Or wonder how remarkable it is that they share the same name?

If I was asked to pick the Catholic call to prayer, I'd probably pick the angelus. RTE dressing it up as some sort of moment of reflection for everyone, catholic or not, doesn't change what it broadcasts, that is, church bells of the Catholic call to prayer at the times Catholics would pray.

SpaceTime

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Suppose how we've always felt by what is made patently clear by the state = you're state is catholic, catholics will get all the preferences because of their credulity, we are NOT a neutral state and if don't like it f off!!

Thank you mother Ireland for being so inclusive.

Good thing I'm emigrating so!

Ireland has always made me feel like I'm unwelcome and I was bloody born here!