Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

culbaire

danganabu wrote: »

If you're dropping lads on the basis of the Munster Final then you won't have many left. Noel Connors for one in the FB line was far worse. As was SOK behind him, but those two seem to be immune to criticism in Waterford.

Coughlan played well in the first game against KK. As for the second game when Colin Fennelly hits form I doubt there is a FB in the country let alone Waterford who can stop him, just Waterford's bad look that he hadn't done it in so long but chose last Saturday.

FB has become the most difficult position in the modern game IMO, traditionally the main attribute was to be big and strong and commanding in the air, now you need to have all that but also have the speed to mark say the likes of Shane O'Donnell while 20 mins later mark a target man like your own Maurice Shanahan.

Agree with you 100% re Noel Connors and SOK. They will need to up their performances next year.

culbaire

PTH2009 wrote: »

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/gaa-sports/gaa-matches/u21-hurling-matches/Waterford%2dU21%2dv%2dAntrim%2dU21-11038833.html

Jayus were 1/20 to win by 16pts or more. Money could be made if we win by less than 15

Antrim did catch Wexford in 2013. Some of the Waterford players will probably be jaded after the exertions against KK. A lot will depend on the freshness of the Waterford players. Waterford should win comfortably enough if the attitude is right.

Horseboxhead

i do agree with you re the form, positioning and decision making of T.D.Burca, i am at a loss to understand how this is managements fault, by consistantly playing him in the same position as last year, where he excelled, i believe now your a ball hop and do not have a valid point to make , if you were speaking your posts you'd be shouting as communicating in an adult fashion does not seem to be your thing, . Tadgh de burca was not fully recovered from injury when he made his seasonal debut V Dublin last feb in walsh park, and the game that day has been exactly like the rest of the year he mixed the sublime with really basic errors and all of them costly, Plus teams have worked out that under pressure / being stood up or even held up tadgh will sometimes make poor decisions with ball in hand, this has effected his striking on the back foot, and his ability to win ball in the air, simple.

PTH2009

culbaire wrote: »

Antrim did catch Wexford in 2013. Some of the Waterford players will probably be jaded after the exertions against KK. A lot will depend on the freshness of the Waterford players. Waterford should win comfortably enough if the attitude is right.

Too lose on Saturday will be both damaging and a slight bit embarrassing. According to bookies were extreme favourites and when u look at the calibre of the team you see why. in 2013 we beat the Antrim Minors very well in the AIQF with a huge bulk of both squads that day making up the squads on Saturday. Antrim and Waterford hurling are good friends with a lot of connections from both sides (Kevin Ryan, Jim Greene were part of management teams in the past up there etc) so there will be no bad blood or anything.

This is our 3rd u21 game this year and first outside of Walsh Park. Hopefully nerves and being away from home comforts wont affect our lads. Expecting Aussie, the Bennetts and the rest of the senior panal contingent to be quite tired but they will want to vanish the disapointment of last saturday and prove a point. Other players will want to play themselves into contention for a possible starting place in the final and to impress the senior management

Antrim last 4 unders 21 games against Munster oppisition
2014- SF- Clare 4-28- Antrim 1-10
2013- Final-Clare 2-28- Antrim 0-12
2012- SF- Clare 4-24- Antrim 0-08
2010- SF- Tipp 2-32- Antrim 1-07

hopefully a big win for Waterford to start a big buzz for the final on the 10th of September

culbaire

Horseboxhead wrote: »

i do agree with you re the form, positioning and decision making of T.D.Burca, i am at a loss to understand how this is managements fault, by consistantly playing him in the same position as last year, where he excelled, i believe now your a ball hop and do not have a valid point to make , if you were speaking your posts you'd be shouting as communicating in an adult fashion does not seem to be your thing, . Tadgh de burca was not fully recovered from injury when he made his seasonal debut V Dublin last feb in walsh park, and the game that day has been exactly like the rest of the year he mixed the sublime with really basic errors and all of them costly, Plus teams have worked out that under pressure / being stood up or even held up tadgh will sometimes make poor decisions with ball in hand, this has effected his striking on the back foot, and his ability to win ball in the air, simple.

It is not a ball hop. You just dont like what I have to say. I listened to plenty of criticism here when I argued months ago that the the famous system should be binned.

Teams targeted Barry Coughlan. Cody spotted his weaknesses in the first game and took advantage in the replay. It was common knowledge in Tipperary BEFORE the Munster Final that they were going to target Barry Coughlan. You may not like it. But it is a fact.

The reality is that Tadgh De Burca was trying to play at centre back and full back almost simultaneously. He was attempting to cover for Barry Coughlan. You are quite quick to criticise De Burca who did not have a great season but you cant really bring yourself to admit that Coughlan was cleaned out by Tipperary and Kilkenny. This is part of the problem in Waterford. Any effort to critically analyse performances of SOME players is frowned upon unlike in Kilkenny and Tipperary where even in victory individual performances are put under the microscope without exception.

A lot can be learned from a critical analysis of the performance of each player. It can be put to good use in 2017.

I am not going to take lectures from you. You have introduced a personal element into your posts. First you accused me of being

• "blinkered" in one post
• "ball hopping"
• "Not communicating in an adult fashion"

You are obviously not used to being challenged on your opinions. Well you are not going to intimidate me by snide remarks. You can always disagree strongly without getting personal. There is nothing wrong with robust debate.

hurler on de ditch

culbaire wrote: »

If you think that Barry Coughlan is an inter country standard full back persist in your delusion. When did you ever see Barry Coughlan drive a ball 60 metres? He was targeted by Kilkenny and Tipperary and cleaned out. De Burca has hurling skill in abundance. However he has been messed around by management. He now appears unsure of his role and it is telling in his performances.

first of all i made no reference to Barry Coughlan in any of my posts ,secondly you go on about B,C and you say , When did you ever see Barry Coughlan drive a ball 60 metres?well i ask you when was the last time you've actually seen TDB win a ball in the air when he is actually marking someone ,have a good hard look over your recordings if you have them ,he has to be one of the most under performing players of the championship this year bar none,he also is a serial fouler something that has cost us big time this year ,sure he looks good swanning around as a sweeper/spare man hoovering up loose ball but his distribution of the ball has caught us out on numerous occasions this year,i posted earlier this year think it was one of the Clare games that he should have been subbed at half time and he was not ,but if he was he might learn that repeat offenses would not be tolerated but instead he was left on and picked for every game since and repeating the same things ,we need a management with balls real balls to see these things and act on them ,much in the way Cody does it with kk he made three changes for replay but crucially he dropped Joyce one of the finest hurlers in the squad ,we need to stand up and man ,have a pair of balls, as was said to me one time your balls are not only for scratching when you go to bed ,

culbaire

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

first of all i made no reference to Barry Coughlan in any of my posts ,secondly you go on about B,C and you say , When did you ever see Barry Coughlan drive a ball 60 metres?well i ask you when was the last time you've actually seen TDB win a ball in the air when he is actually marking someone ,have a good hard look over your recordings if you have them ,he has to be one of the most under performing players of the championship this year bar none,he also is a serial fouler something that has cost us big time this year ,sure he looks good swanning around as a sweeper/spare man hoovering up loose ball but his distribution of the ball has caught us out on numerous occasions this year,i posted earlier this year think it was one of the Clare games that he should have been subbed at half time and he was not ,but if he was he might learn that repeat offenses would not be tolerated but instead he was left on and picked for every game since and repeating the same things ,we need a management with balls real balls to see these things and act on them ,much in the way Cody does it with kk he made three changes for replay but crucially he dropped Joyce one of the finest hurlers in the squad ,we need to stand up and man ,have a pair of balls, as was said to me one time your balls are not only for scratching when you go to bed ,

You joined in, in a debate. You first had a dig at me for challenging Horseboxhead re non use of paragraphs. You CONVENIENTLY ignored the fact that Horseboxhead had made a personal remark in his post and proceeded to lecture me. By any chance are you the same poster? There is an uncanny resemblance in posting styles and non use of paragraphs.

You can seek to divert attention from Barry Coughlan's weaknesses at full back all you like. It does not alter the reality that he was cleaned out by Tipperary and Kilkenny and is just not good enough. Waterford wont win an All Ireland with him at full back. Cheer lead all you like for him. Reality has a habit of biting Waterford in the backside.

Henno30

Is McGrath staying?

danganabu

culbaire wrote: »

When did you ever see Barry Coughlan drive a ball 60 metres?

How is that in anyway a measure of a FB? Besides up until the KK games if he did that he would be bypassing about 12 of his team-mates. The day of the swashbuckling bursting out driving the ball 90 yard FB is long gone, the likes of the Rock etc would get cleaned in the modern game, look at Tipp as an example they attempted to replicate it with Paraic Maher and he got absolutely cleaned, that experiment didn't last too long, FB is about minding house and doing the simple things well.

culbaire wrote: »

Teams targeted Barry Coughlan. Cody spotted his weaknesses in the first game and took advantage in the replay. It was common knowledge in Tipperary BEFORE the Munster Final that they were going to target Barry Coughlan. You may not like it. But it is a fact..

Tipp didn't specifically target Coughlan, they simply built there game around getting the ball into Seamie Callinan and John McGrath as quick as possible, it was irrelevant who was marking them, they are the danger men, they would have done the same if it was Gleeson FB.

culbaire

danganabu wrote: »

How is that in anyway a measure of a FB? Besides up until the KK games if he did that he would be bypassing about 12 of his team-mates. The day of the swashbuckling bursting out driving the ball 90 yard FB is long gone, the likes of the Rock etc would get cleaned in the modern game, look at Tipp as an example they attempted to replicate it with Paraic Maher and he got absolutely cleaned, that experiment didn't last too long, FB is about minding house and doing the simple things well.



Tipp didn't specifically target Coughlan, they simply built there game around getting the ball into Seamie Callinan and John McGrath as quick as possible, it was irrelevant who was marking them, they are the danger men, they would have done the same if it was Gleeson FB.

Callanan on one leg cleaned out Barry Coughlan. Period! Blunt reality. You state" FB is about minding house and doing the simple things well" He is persistently fouling and is depending on other players to clear the ball for him.

blueflame

danganabu wrote: »

How is that in anyway a measure of a FB? Besides up until the KK games if he did that he would be bypassing about 12 of his team-mates. The day of the swashbuckling bursting out driving the ball 90 yard FB is long gone, the likes of the Rock etc would get cleaned in the modern game, look at Tipp as an example they attempted to replicate it with Paraic Maher and he got absolutely cleaned, that experiment didn't last too long, FB is about minding house and doing the simple things well.



Tipp didn't specifically target Coughlan, they simply built there game around getting the ball into Seamie Callinan and John McGrath as quick as possible, it was irrelevant who was marking them, they are the danger men, they would have done the same if it was Gleeson FB.

Have to agree 100% with this. I believe Tipp targeted our Half back line and our Full back line simultaneously. They pushed up on our Half backs when not in possession putting them under serious pressure. They knew that our Half Backs needed time and space to pick out passes into an empty full forward line or had to opt for short passes, and used this to create numerous turnovers. They then used short puck-outs to move the ball up the field far enough to bypass the half back line and attack a full forward line where they had big men good in the air, well able to compete under dropping ball and had runners coming at pace to attack the space. With the amount of ball that was dropped in that day and allowing for the weather conditions it was an accident waiting to happen.

I have already expressed my view on the KK Game, but to try and apply blame to Barry Coughlan in the Munster Final is downright wrong - if memory serves me correct and it is while since i watched it, Coughlan conceded a penalty that day which i personally though he was very hard done by. Callinan made no attempt to play the ball, he got entangled with Coughlan in a 50/50 wrestling match. If anything to me it should have resulted in a free out as Coughlan's helmet ended up on the ground.

Several years ago in another Munster Final debacle, the very unlucky Jerome Maher was blamed for Tipp running riot, They way people spoke about him you would swear he was responsible for all seven goals that day, when in fact he was only on the field of play for three of the goals I think and was certainly not at fault for all those, I think one at worst. He got blamed for a complete melt down propagated by ridiculous tactics employed by Davy Fitz playing Brick at full back, a totally unnatural position for him and leaving us exposed out the field. The result Jerome Maher a fine young with great potential never again played for Waterford

In my view we cannot afford to let the likes of this happen again

danganabu

culbaire wrote: »

Callanan on one leg cleaned out Barry Coughlan. Period! Blunt reality. You state" FB is about minding house and doing the simple things well" He is persistently fouling and is depending on other players to clear the ball for him.

Callanan on one leg is a complete exaggeration and he would not have been playing if he was injured. Callanan has cleaned out nearly every FB in the country over the past 3 years.

Callanan scored 1-02 off Coughlan, I'd nearly have taken that if I was a Waterford man tbh. I mean Mikey Breen score 1-01 from the centre of midfield where there were about 4 Waterford lads against him and B Maher.

Again a FB is only as good as the cover afforded to him from the front, De Burca was given that role and was AWOL. Look at all the great FB's over the last 20 years and I guarantee you the Centre Back in front was top class. Look at Noel Hickey as a great example, quality FB, dominant numerous all stars and celtic crosses, what happened the first day Brian Hogan was missing, Lar Corbett absolutely murdered him. Same thing happened Brain Lohan, it was only when Anthony Daly retired that he was exposed.

robopaddy2

Yes

Henno30 wrote: »

Is McGrath staying?

Yea. we might see a change in the backroom staff though

tomwaterford

culbaire wrote: »

Callanan on one leg cleaned out Barry Coughlan. Period! Blunt reality. You state" FB is about minding house and doing the simple things well" He is persistently fouling and is depending on other players to clear the ball for him.

Held scoreless from play in munster final 2015....also held tj Reid scoreless in croke park...

He's not flawless. ...but there's few if any full backs can boast such a statistic.




As for persistent fouling personally I think that's a symthom of the way the game is going with increased cynicism....

IE.....personally I'd rather see forwards pulled down that let them through for goal/even scoring points from play....so as to prevent momentum and confidence of forwards





You above anyone else has been taking pops at Coughlan while willing to ignore others in backline or at best acknowledge others flaws.....who do you suggest as a replacement....I


.that can match physically,athletism,good hand to win the ball and imo good reading to find players to offload ball to as opposed to humping the ball 60 yards down field to opposition centre backs ....ability to hurling left and right hand equally

Jesus even jj Delaney usEd get a torrid time off the likes of shame walsh

hurler on de ditch

culbaire wrote: »

You joined in, in a debate. You first had a dig at me for challenging Horseboxhead re non use of paragraphs. You CONVENIENTLY ignored the fact that Horseboxhead had made a personal remark in his post and proceeded to lecture me. By any chance are you the same poster? There is an uncanny resemblance in posting styles and non use of paragraphs.

You can seek to divert attention from Barry Coughlan's weaknesses at full back all you like. It does not alter the reality that he was cleaned out by Tipperary and Kilkenny and is just not good enough. Waterford wont win an All Ireland with him at full back. Cheer lead all you like for him. Reality has a habit of biting Waterford in the backside.

ha ha your out of your head boy

are you a full back for your club and are bitter because B,C. is keeping you out of the Waterford team

culbaire

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

ha ha your out of your head boy

are you a full back for your club and are bitter because B,C. is keeping you out of the Waterford team

Not one bit bitter.

culbaire

tomwaterford wrote: »

Held scoreless from play in munster final 2015....also held tj Reid scoreless in croke park...

He's not flawless. ...but there's few if any full backs can boast such a statistic.




As for persistent fouling personally I think that's a symthom of the way the game is going with increased cynicism....

IE.....personally I'd rather see forwards pulled down that let them through for goal/even scoring points from play....so as to prevent momentum and confidence of forwards





You above anyone else has been taking pops at Coughlan while willing to ignore others in backline or at best acknowledge others flaws.....who do you suggest as a replacement....I


.that can match physically,athletism,good hand to win the ball and imo good reading to find players to offload ball to as opposed to humping the ball 60 yards down field to opposition centre backs ....ability to hurling left and right hand equally

Jesus even jj Delaney usEd get a torrid time off the likes of shame walsh

Tadhg was the de facto full back in 2015 as one very prominent national pundit spelled out recently. That pundit was 100% correct. De Burca covered for Barry Coughlan and cleared the ball.

Can remember you here having a right go at me a few months ago when I savaged the bastardised / ruck and maul hurling being played under the famous system. You were a strong advocate for the system. Now you appear to have changed your opinion about the famous system and appear to be in favour of the open hurling approach which I advocated.

You ask who I would favour as a replacement. There are potential replacements. Unfortunately they have no prospects of being chosen under this management team

PTH2009

The Waterford Under 21 Hurling Team to face Antrim in the All Ireland Hurling Semi-Final on Saturday has being named!!

1. Gavin Power (Dungarvan)
2. William Hahessy (Clonea)
3. Conor Gleeson (Fourmilewater)
4. Darragh Lyons (Dungarvan)
5. Míchéal Harney (Bunmahon)
6. Austin Gleeson (Mount Sion)
7. Conor Prunty (Abbeyside)
8. Mark O'Brien (Ferrybank)
9. Michael Kearney (Ballyduff Upper)
10. DJ Foran (Portlaw)
11. Tom Devine (Modeligo)
12. Colm Roche (Shamrocks)
13. Stephen Bennett (Ballysaggart)
14. Patrick Curran (Dungarvan)
15. Shane Bennett (Ballysaggart)

pkc1

Just a small complaint, and it's not directed at you PTH, but I've seen that team announced in a few different places this afternoon and in each of them Miche l Harney's name is spelled wrong in different ways! I've seen

Micheal
Mich al
And even
M ch al!

FFS it's hardly that exotic a name!

culbaire

danganabu wrote: »

Callanan on one leg is a complete exaggeration and he would not have been playing if he was injured. Callanan has cleaned out nearly every FB in the country over the past 3 years.

Callanan scored 1-02 off Coughlan, I'd nearly have taken that if I was a Waterford man tbh. I mean Mikey Breen score 1-01 from the centre of midfield where there were about 4 Waterford lads against him and B Maher.

Again a FB is only as good as the cover afforded to him from the front, De Burca was given that role and was AWOL. Look at all the great FB's over the last 20 years and I guarantee you the Centre Back in front was top class. Look at Noel Hickey as a great example, quality FB, dominant numerous all stars and celtic crosses, what happened the first day Brian Hogan was missing, Lar Corbett absolutely murdered him. Same thing happened Brain Lohan, it was only when Anthony Daly retired that he was exposed.

How many scores did a half fit Callanan make? I know for a fact that he was not fully fit. A full back could hold his man scoreless but his man may create a lot of goal/point scoring opportunities for other forwards. In which case the full back has had a bad game. By the way you forgot that Tipperary player
John McGrath scored a goal from a penalty after Seamus Callanan had been taken down by Barry Coughlan who panicked when he found himself one on one with the Tipperary forward.

danganabu

culbaire wrote: »

How many scores did a half fit Callanan make? I know for a fact that he was not fully fit. A full back could hold his man scoreless but his man may create a lot of goal/point scoring opportunities for other forwards. In which case the full back has had a bad game. By the way you forgot that Tipperary player
John McGrath scored a goal from a penalty after Seamus Callanan had been taken down by Barry Coughlan who panicked when he found himself one on one with the Tipperary forward.

Apologies, dint realise you were on the Tipp medical team, why would Tipp play an unfit player in a match that was not knockout or do or die, makes no sense, especially not when he is their main player and talisman?

Didn't forget John McGrath's penalty at all, it was never a penalty in a million years and besides did John McGrath not score 3-02 that day? And I don't think he was marking Coughlan.

You have been asked a few times to name a viable alternative and have dodged the question with vague answers like 'plenty of lads' and the like, come on name them, you are obviously a great judge of inter-county FB's name the alternatives open to Derek McGrath or admit that this is just a silly personal grudge.

Every Waterford supporter I have met has said that the Munster Final was an freak game and not a fair reflection of Waterford, I would have to agree, but yet you are using it as a stick to beat one of your own, and not only that but a player who was no where near the worst on the field, if anything he was the 'least worst' of the FB line and keeper.

culbaire

danganabu wrote: »

Apologies, dint realise you were on the Tipp medical team, why would Tipp play an unfit player in a match that was not knockout or do or die, makes no sense, especially not when he is their main player and talisman?

Didn't forget John McGrath's penalty at all, it was never a penalty in a million years and besides did John McGrath not score 3-02 that day? And I don't think he was marking Coughlan.

You have been asked a few times to name a viable alternative and have dodged the question with vague answers like 'plenty of lads' and the like, come on name them, you are obviously a great judge of inter-county FB's name the alternatives open to Derek McGrath or admit that this is just a silly personal grudge.

Every Waterford supporter I have met has said that the Munster Final was an freak game and not a fair reflection of Waterford, I would have to agree, but yet you are using it as a stick to beat one of your own, and not only that but a player who was no where near the worst on the field, if anything he was the 'least worst' of the FB line and keeper.

Are you part of the Tipperary backroom team to say for certain that Seamus Callanan was 100% fit? I know otherwise.

One of the goals McGrath scored was from a penalty caused by Barry Coughlan who was persistently fouling. The penalty was most certainly justified.

Derek McGrath has a closed mind in relation to certain players in the county who could be chosen for SEVERAL positions where there are weaknesses. Pointless naming them here. They are not going not be chosen by this management committee.

Finally I do not blame Barry Coughlan alone for the Munster Final collapse or defeat by KK. I would have never discussed Barry Coughlan here were it not for the fact that I saw one poster having a right go at young Conor Gleeson, whilst seeking to convey the impression that Barry Coughlan had no responsibility.

We have to agree to disagree.

Mulbert

culbaire wrote:

Derek McGrath has a closed mind in relation to certain players in the county who could be chosen for SEVERAL positions where there are weaknesses. Pointless naming them here. They are not going not be chosen by this management committee.

Go on tell us, I for one am mad to hear of all these players. From what ur saying there are a multitude of unpolished diamonds strolling about the county.

robopaddy2

Why have they changed the keeper? Henley had been doing fine

blueflame

I believe he picked up and injury In a club game or training

Cake Man

Are tg4 doing this game(s) live?

Dick phelan

We can all debate on the abilities of Bary Coughlan and i will admit i think he's the weak link at the back for us, question to those who slate him however is who would you have instead of him? I won't claim to no Waterford hurling inside out from underage to club level, but there's hardly a FB in the county miles better who should be in his place? This ain't football you can't transfer players we have to make the best of what we've got, perhaps we just don't have a top class FB at present?

mickmackmcgoo

Shane Fives or TDB could well play full back

PTH2009

Cake Man wrote: »

Are tg4 doing this game(s) live?

Deff are but on my UPC box they have the programme on at 4pm-7pm . the 2nd game only throws in at 6pm ???

I'll be in Thurles anyhow so wont matter much too me

Could be a small Waterford crowd going up

robopaddy2

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Shane Fives or TDB could well play full back

Yea, I don't agree that there is no one else in the county that can play in the position. But the fact of the matter is Coughlan has been moulded into the position over a period of 2 or 3 years and it will be difficult to dislodge him. Conor Prunty and Kieran Bennett have been mentioned as potential full backs here aswell and I'm sure people would argue a few more. Its a specialist position and for some reason we don't seem to produce fullbacks in abundance in Waterford. That has been the case for 15 years now. Coughlan was no more or less a candidate than those lads were a couple years ago. McGrath needed a full back, looked around, there was slim enough pickings being honest, and chose Coughlan as the one he saw as having the potential to grow into the position long term. No doubt their days together in DLS college played a factor but Coughlan hasn't let his old mentor down overall you have to say.

The argument above is really have we reached a cross roads as regards a long term full back. But like I say it will take someone good to come in and demand the position over a period of time to dislodge him. As things stand he is the first choice fullback and thats it. On TDB, personally I can see him moving back to full back in a couple years. I think this notion of him being the number one 'sweeper' in the game has been banished this year. Other counties have it sussed and close him down a lot quicker. His confidence has suffered a bit a result of the pressure and thats why the dip in form and unforced errors etc. He was young hurler of the year last year but will hardly even be nominated for an allstar this year. But thats a learning curve for him, he's got unbelievable ability and he will bounce back next year. I think when he tidies up the errors and gains more of a defensive mindset he could be a quality fullback.