Chasing the sub 50 10k - for what seems like forever

Bluesquare

It's my second marathon but the first one is so long ago it's like my first! honestly the sub 50k 10k is more important to me!!! Didn't expect we would get the lottery so now nothing to do but go along with it!

Great that your training for same race! The big matter for contention in our group is what pace the long runs are done at. Currently I mix it up - I go with a slow group were the pace can be a ten min mile plus or I go with a faster group where the pace can be around marsthon pace or faster. These runs I find hard to recover from so they don't happen that often ! It's not actually planned though I just run with whoever is around !

Bluesquare

I ran at lunch time today because I knew tonight would be a write -off.

I did a "tempo" run for 5k and a cool down for 3k.

When I say tempo the average pace for the 5k was 5.11 min km . I however didn't run at an even pace - warmed up for the first 2 k - then did 3k at 5 min k. It wasn't comfortable by any stretch of the imagination . Me and lunch time running are not friends . It's always feels like I'm putting in lots of energy to go no where fast! Don't know how I can do that pace for 10k

Did 3k to cool down - making up mileage really.

So that brings weekly total to 23k. Hoping to do between 16k-20k sat morning.

Kennyg71

Bluesquare wrote: »

It's my second marathon but the first one is so long ago it's like my first! honestly the sub 50k 10k is more important to me!!! Didn't expect we would get the lottery so now nothing to do but go along with it!

Great that your training for same race! The big matter for contention in our group is what pace the long runs are done at. Currently I mix it up - I go with a slow group were the pace can be a ten min mile plus or I go with a faster group where the pace can be around marsthon pace or faster. These runs I find hard to recover from so they don't happen that often ! It's not actually planned though I just run with whoever is around !

Defiantly in slower end 10 min pace, if training for 4 hrs you need to recover
quickly from these sessions, have a look at past DCM novice thread and you
will pick up some good tips. This years will start around end of May or so, great
resource and fits in well time wise with Berlin as well.

Bluesquare

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Defiantly in slower end 10 min pace, if training for 4 hrs you need to recover
quickly from these sessions, have a look at past DCM novice thread and you
will pick up some good tips. This years will start around end of May or so, great
resource and fits in well time wise with Berlin as well.

Hi Kennyg- that's the plan once the long mileage kicks off - the schedule includes some strong finish long runs , some long runs with a steady middle and done just long and slow. I want to get my half time down before marathon training kicks off after a disappointing run in bohermeen so that's why currently I do the odd one close to Hm pace.

I will look at the DCM novice thread - any advice is welcome!

Bluesquare

Today I'm working from home so managed to do T25 Ript circuit and 30 mins of Pilates for runners. I find the Pilates really helps with any niggles . Randomly picked two from u tube so for all I know they may not even be Pilates( I have been doing them weekly for about a month)

Spent some time reading training logs here yesterday . What surprised me was the amount of easy running that people do with huge improvements and PBS! In line with the 80/20 theory . In my case I don't know how to fit in easy runs around club sessions and long runs!

I'm really stuck for time - early mornings not an option as I'm up at 6 with a three hour commute (round trip). Do i need to drop a club session or the fact that I'm only doing at most 4 runs not factor into the 80/20 as I have recovary time in between runs .

I also try never to run more than twice in a row - been injured a lot in recent memory !

Kennyg71

Bluesquare wrote: »

Hi Kennyg- that's the plan once the long mileage kicks off - the schedule includes some strong finish long runs , some long runs with a steady middle and done just long and slow. I want to get my half time down before marathon training kicks off after a disappointing run in bohermeen so that's why currently I do the odd one close to Hm pace.

I will look at the DCM novice thread - any advice is welcome!

If your club does speed sessions, or do tempo run during week will bring on speed,
point of long run is just to build aerobic base which you will see benifit of
overtime, running them to fast will not benifit in long term, each session has
it's purpose, took me while to get head around concept but defiantly worth
sticking with. Fast finish on LSR defiantly has benifit but over all bulk should
be 1-1.5 mins slower than PMP. As you get fitter these paces change but you
can only work from where you are now best Luck:)

annapr

Welcome back! You're getting close to the sub-40 5 mile... Bodes well for the 10k goal. If marathon training goes well you should get the sub 50 during it!

Berlin is a fantastic marathon, great city and atmosphere. My OH did it in 2014 and several people here did. It's flat and fast but can be warm. You'll find loads of good info on it here.

As kennyg says, don't overdo the fast running, especially with your injury history. Easy easy!

Good luck with the training.

Bluesquare

Cheers Annapr for the welcome back! Thanks guys for the advice on the LSR

I'm kind of ignoring the fact that I'm signed up for the marathon for another month anyway! I am hoping that something falls into place ! I am doing Pilates and strength training and watching my consecutive days running in order to not be get injured again!

I did a 10 mile run on sat at 540 pace. In my defence it was a chatty run - I did try several times to slow the pace but the guys were like it's not a long run really it's only 10 mile! Even pace for the run - chatty and steady. The problem is I am useless at running long on my own - so unlikely to do it solo.

Today I was determined to do a proper slow 5k but alas I was defeated by the weather and stayed nice and snug in the canteen . I won't do it on the treadmill because it's impossible to go slow . I'll have to try fit it in in the next couple of days!

I will do some strength training instead of I get a chance .

I have signed up for a couple of 10ks one on the 20th of April in Dundalk and one on the 1st of May in Drogheda. For a person who barely races I am considering a third on in Duleek in the middle of the two . My plan would be to not race the first one but use it as a tempo run and race the second two. If for some reason all my stars align at the first one - I'll use the second one as my long run and add miles! The boyne 10k I'll race for a course pb!

Now I'm expecting my energy levels to be low next week but I may find this is not the case - hence there maybe a change of plan!

Bluesquare

Had to do a solo run today as no babysitter for tonight. Haven't slept well in 3 days and have had a stressful last day or so decided to just run and see where legs went . The weren't really up for it so went slow , or went as fast my legs went - didn't push it at all . Ended up doing 8k in 46 mins. Will have to do hill/speed session on Thursday to make up for it . This will probably be considered junk mileage but helped relieve stress and of course a calorie burned is a calorie burned !

Bluesquare

Did a spot of Pilates on Wednesday - just for 20 mins or so.

Tonight did 8 * 125m sprints with a 5k "warm up " and 4k cool down . Average pace abut 3:42 min k on grass with not a lot of variance . I'm not very good at sprinting and rolled in last each time. It was good considering how ridiculous the warm was . Embarrassed even writing it but the tale must get told so if someone reads this log in the future they will know how not to train . The warm up was average 5.13 with the last k at 450. I think the training was done before the speed work even started .

Oh this is too fast let's slow down . Everyone slows . Then two mins later this is too fast let's slow down and so on and so forth .

There are faster people in the group but it's still not warm up pace for them .

Nursing sore legs and back of top right leg not good - dunno if groin/hamstring or sciatica . Going to give quick roll before bed and maybe some tiger balm !

On the positive side needed to work off some stress and that session did the job! (Also one hell of a calorie burner so yay!)

Bluesquare

Felt very tired and sore on Friday - which fed into Saturday mornings 10miler. Even my arms were killing me - I must have some weird sprint style. What an awful run - like running through treacle . Had to go earlier than normal so didn't go through the routine properly. Only had a chance to shovel about three mouthfuls of porridge and a nurofen into the gob before leaving.

Grabbed a lucazade sport and a gel on the way out the door.

Very hilly route - boyne 10k plus 6k (an extra 3k hill to finish) . Thankfully the group were all struggling after Thursday's session so no heroics. Still a little on the fast side but I think we were just doing what the legs could go and were comfortable with. Still chatting all the way whilst sipping on that lucazade sport. Didn't bother with the gel - too much effort!

We finished and I made a mammoth dash to the car and home - barely made the bathroom. Stomach in a right heap. Forced myself to drink some protein recovary drink cause I knew I would suffer later. Lesson learned ,don't change routine and don't mix nurofen and lucazade sport on an empty stomach .

10 mile @ 5:48

Woke up on Sunday feeling normal again despite the 10 miler the day before .

Took a lovely hike with the kiddies over clogherhead . Glorious . Came home and actually managed to do a slow run ! (Little lad came on flicker) 2 mile@10.30

Weekly mileage approx : 23.5 miles

Down on last week but only by a mile or so . Struggling to increase mileage . Dundalk 10k on Wednesday . Not expecting to have a good race - it's not pessimistic I swear . Just crap timing . But all race experience is good - I need to embrace the pain !!!! Ahhhhhhhh think I'm too old for this !!!

Bluesquare

Not sure what to do tomorrow strategy wise with this 10k. Every levels down so not the day for the sub 50. But there is a pacer. Should I just follow the pacer until I can't from experience of it or run by feel ? I will have 3 full days rest before the race? I know from experience though that stupid hormones could slow me down a lot despite how hard I think I'm pushing .

Bought Hal Higdon ultimate training guide yesterday - slowly make by my way through it. Not a lot of speed work in here . Is club training detrimental to marathon training at my level? Food for thought.

Duanington

Bluesquare wrote: »

Not sure what to do tomorrow strategy wise with this 10k. Every levels down so not the day for the sub 50. But there is a pacer. Should I just follow the pacer until I can't from experience of it or run by feel ? I will have 3 full days rest before the race? I know from experience though that stupid hormones could slow me down a lot despite how hard I think I'm pushing .

Bought Hal Higdon ultimate training guide yesterday - slowly make by my way through it. Not a lot of speed work in here . Is club training detrimental to marathon training at my level? Food for thought.

What times does the race have pacers for Bluesquare?

Also, re club training being detrimental to your marathon training , I wouldn't say that at all. Are you following a plan or just playing it week by week? I think that's the more important question to be honest

Bluesquare

Duanington wrote: »

What times does the race have pacers for Bluesquare?

Also, re club training being detrimental to your marathon training , I wouldn't say that at all. Are you following a plan or just playing it week by week? I think that's the more important question to be honest

Hiya - the pacers are sub 60,55,50,45. I am hoping to go sub 50 soon - just don't think tomorrow my time ! Last short race -raheny 5 mile in 40 30.

Currently following club schedule which has two hard sessions ( tempos/interval/hills covering distances up to 12k) and a 10/13 mile LSR. I usually add an extra 5k . The marathon plan follows the club schedule -it's 20 weeks long with progressive LSR , includes step back weeks and at least two 20 mile runs.

This is my second marathon the first been 7 years ago so it's seems like a dream . !

Duanington

Bluesquare wrote: »

Hiya - the pacers are sub 60,55,50,45. I am hoping to go sub 50 soon - just don't think tomorrow my time ! Last short race -raheny 5 mile in 40 30.

Currently following club schedule which has two hard sessions ( tempos/interval/hills covering distances up to 12k) and a 10/13 mile LSR. I usually add an extra 5k . The marathon plan follows the club schedule -it's 20 weeks long with progressive LSR , includes step back weeks and at least two 20 mile runs.

This is my second marathon the first been 7 years ago so it's seems like a dream . !

Go out with the pacer , take a chance ! Worst case scenario you'll drop off the pace a little and still get a good workout in the bag. Best case scenario, you surprise yourself !
If you've trained consistently since Raheny I think you'll be well able judging by a 40 odd minute 5 mile
Enjoy the race, good luck!

Bluesquare

Duanington wrote: »

Go out with the pacer , take a chance ! Worst case scenario you'll drop off the pace a little and still get a good workout in the bag. Best case scenario, you surprise yourself !
If you've trained consistently since Raheny I think you'll be well able judging by a 40 odd minute 5 mile
Enjoy the race, good luck!

Thanks Duanington

Your right I need to take a chance with the pacer - one of these days I will surprise myself ! Worse case scenario I don't go sub 50 - but there is always a pb to aim for as well . Failing that I can just say I enjoyed that " tempo" session !!

Bluesquare

So after deciding to the follow the pacer I couldn't get near him in the line up but thought sure I'll keep him in sight when the race opens up . We started and after about 5 secs over the line I realised my runner was open . Rookie error. Took myself to the side line and lost sight of the ballon and all of my fellow club members.

In what seemed like a minute later I was off again - put a bit of a kick in it and felt a sharp pain in the quad - hobbled in a speedy way for about 10 secs and the pain subsides. I caught the sub 55 pacer at about 1k - so I assumed my first spilt was about 530 ( silly watch set to auto pause in error.) Split 1 clocked by watch as 453.

My brain did not like racing yesterday ,
Whispers to me "just stop , slow down , have a little jaunt ". Anyway after about another 500 m I caught sight of a club member who would be more or less on the same level as me . Took me until 5 k to catch her. Brain flagged hills and inclines all over the place . ( fairly flat course with nice little downhills someone said later) Just as I was right behind her without even turning around she asked are you ok? She knew my breathing . At this stage I think my brain decided that that the race was done and took the gears down.

My breathing was lovely yesterday , breathe sniff, breathe sniff, so on and so forth. The 5k on watch clocked at 2454. After this I seemed to die. Breathing got more and more ragged -breathe sniff breathe sniff . Maybe have taken too many puffs from my ventolin (had the shakes for a couple of hours after) . The scenery improved as we ran along the coast but my running took a nosedive .

I managed to run alongside my buddy for most of the rest of the race and we silently or breathe sniffly helped the each other along . After the 5k going slow seemed hard. I stopped looking at the watch and started concentrating on getting to the end . After 6 k i started employing the stantard mental tricks "that's only from the pub to my house etc. "

Just before 9k (I was at this stage about 15m ahead of my club mate) a girl asked me was I ok looking very concerned at me!! "Yeah fine breathe sniff breathe sniff ". But then my brain was like are you ok ??? Are you ok ?? You better stop and get your breathing settled and oh take a gel - 9k cause that makes sense. So I walked for the time it took to take a gel. In the meantime my buddy was in front again. I managed to catch up with her again and we ran on together to finish . Longest 1k ever .

Put the head down and went as fast as I could manage - got to the finish line with clock at 51 20 which I couldn't comprehend - after my lace tying I assumed at this stage I had no hope of even a pb. Garmin clocked 50 55. Watch fastest 10k! I knew at this stage before chipped time I had a 15 sec pb - turns out 30 secs in the end - 40 if I take the watch time!!

Obviously not a good race - chest still not 100% today. I don't have a cold so I am assuming the pollen count was high yesterday . Also quad sore ? Not hobble along sore . Could run on it ? Better ask dr. Google .

So still chasing sub 50 - got closer but still far away . A thirty second improvement in 6 months is awful . I knew yesterday was a bad day (hormones it is a real thing you know) Boyne 10k next race up - not a sub 50 course - I'm think maybe malahaide next month .

Splits as follows: 454,458,459,457,506,509,505,514,535 and 453

Duanington

Maybe not the result you were looking for Bluesquare - looking at your splits though, your last k was your fastest so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the performance.

Sounds like you suffered a little over the second half but you still had enough to put in your strongest 1k split at the end

A question if you don't mind? What's the thinking behind taking a gel at 8\9k?

Bluesquare

Duanington wrote: »

Maybe not the result you were looking for Bluesquare - looking at your splits though, your last k was your fastest so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the performance.

Sounds like you suffered a little over the second half but you still had enough to put in your strongest 1k split at the end

A question if you don't mind? What's the thinking behind taking a gel at 8\9k?

I think it was just an excuse to have a little walk . I think the walk helped me recover breathing wise and gave me a kick to get to the end . Probably lost 10 secs walking and gained 30 in the next k. Those gels work fairly quickly for me ! Not a tactic I would usually employ but was feeling wrecked before I even left the house so shoved one in my pocket just in casey!

I need to work on the positive mental attitude! I am still waiting for the race where u pick people off one by one at the end that all these training / racing strategy books go on about. I am no Phil Healy !!!

Bluesquare

Forgot to say - would highly recommend the race to anyone. Great facilities , lovely course (pb and scenery ) , very cheap , good spread after . The only issue I had with it is that the slower runners (1 hour plus) were overwhelmed coming in towards finish line with all the finishers trying to leave .

Bluesquare

I'm going to be sensible and not run until Monday/Tuesday I seem to have pulled a muscle in my thigh . Have no loss of function as far as I can make it its just sore/twingy going down stairs. Hopefully 4/5 days of rest will sort be out.

Bluesquare

Did 5k at lunch. Took until about 3k in to feel semi normal . Took it as slow not that I could managemuch more @ 6.00 min k.

Thigh seems ok - not sore at all . The rest of my leg hurts now and when running . It was like the recovary run I should have did five days ago . My Achilles seems a little tight , hamstrings , groin , knee and even shin splits .Think I have aged 20 years in 5 days!!!

Hoping if I give my leg some tlc tonight I should be back to normal ! So stretching , rolling and tiger balm and maybe even a hot water bottle! A week until next 10k so here is hoping legs start to feel ok!

Chartsengrafs

Hi Bluesquare, good job on getting through a tough race. I see from your opening posts you include tempo runs in your weekly schedule. Mind me asking what duration the tempo runs were for say the 3/4 weeks prior to the race? You seem to have been getting the all-important long runs in too?

Bluesquare

Chartsengrafs wrote: »

Hi Bluesquare, good job on getting through a tough race. I see from your opening posts you include tempo runs in your weekly schedule. Mind me asking what duration the tempo runs were for say the 3/4 weeks prior to the race? You seem to have been getting the all-important long runs in too?

Thanks! The tempos on the schedule are tempo intervals so it goes a bit like this

Warm up 15 mins
4*6min intervals @ 5-10k pace with 2 min jog rest in between
Cool down 20 mins

Total distance generally about 11k

Recently there have been hill intervals so 4 min hills @ 5k pace - with warm up cool down as above .

there have been progressive runs were you finish at 10k pace and a steady/tempo run at 519 pace .

No tempos ran for 30 mins+ at 10k race pace .

We never actually seem to run at 10k pace for long - either faster or slower. So trying to figure out what your target should be is hard

Chartsengrafs

Bluesquare wrote: »

So trying to figure out what your target should be is hard

I'd agree with that! The approach to tempos sounds reasonable, to me at least. And nothing greater than 30 minutes in duration for tempo need not be a bad thing. 5k just seemed a bit early to be running into trouble, perhaps this is down to your unfortunate start, and trying to make up time. It'd have me rattled anyway!

Bluesquare

I think my brain decided the race was over when I finally caught my buddy!

I think I don't run enough at race pace - would love to try the Macmillan 10k workouts but never seem to find the time . New schedule due out next week so hopefully will be more tempo driven . Really would like to be to go sub 50 before the marathon!

Last nights training didn't go as planned. It was decided that we shouldn't do tempos as everyone racing on Sunday .

Leg sore going into run - pain radiating from butt to Achilles so probably for best anyway .

Steady run at 9 min Mile for 10.5 k. (Or MP tempo) .

Hot water bottle on legs . Legs feel much better today so yay!

Bluesquare

Last run last night before the 10k on Sunday . 8k @ 9min Mile .

Run was not on a plan just random distance and pace . Now to rest up for a couple of days .

Still have slight niggle at back of leg . Sciatica type pain .

I will really need to get a decent plan in order for this marathon and stick to it - too much random messing , with every run not having a function besides giving extra calories for me to eat more crap!

Could do with dropping a couple of pounds - especially with holidays on the horizon . I would say about 6 pounds to be in peak condition for me

Some of the guys have been throwing around the idea of getting a proper coach. I like the idea but there is no way I'd follow a plan by myself . It should not be to much of a stretch for me to go sub 50 and sub 4. I know I'll worry about it next week!!!

Bluesquare

Got my gait tested for like the third time .

This time I over pronate but have extremely high arches . The guys in elverys did a top job - and didn't even try to sell me insoles

At the moment I am wearing brooks Ravenna ( awful shoe) and Nike Pegasus (I like) . Apparently for the marathin I need asics kayanos because they will do want me feet need them to!

To be fair I wore them for 10 years no injury . Changed to brook ghost ( 1st gait test said neutral ) and have had buried non stop for three years . I'm also ten years older so probably coincidence . The kayanos feel heavy enough . I am going to give them a blast .

Also looked like I was dong some seroius heel striking . No wonder my legs are beeped . The physio said my runners don't show evidence of a lot of heel striking . Anyways be nice to get to this starting line in good nick!

tang1

Not to have a go, but I wouldn't trust a thing you'd be told regarding gait analysis in any Elverys store. Go somewhere reputable like Amphibian King or Run Hub. You may not be based in Dublin so neither of these may suit you, but go to a dedicated running store to get gait analysis done.

Edit: Brooks Ravenna is a support shoe, Nike Pegasus is a neutral shoe. Why are you running in different types of runner?

Bluesquare

tang1 wrote: »

Not to have a go, but I wouldn't trust a thing you'd be told regarding gait analysis in any Elverys store. Go somewhere reputable like Amphibian King or Run Hub. You may not be based in Dublin so neither of these may suit you, but go to a dedicated running store to get gait analysis done.

Edit: Brooks Ravenna is a support shoe, Nike Pegasus is a neutral shoe. Why are you running in different types of runner?

The last time I got my gait done was in that running store in Parnell square that name escapes me . I was wearing brooks ghost for a couple of years at this stage , I was told I over pronote and the guy said you're arches must be quite low . Now you only have to look at my foot without knowing anything about gait and you will see I have a really high arch - I was a bit dubious but went with it and bought the brooks Ravenna . Worse buy ever. They are without a doubt the most uncomfortable runners I have ever ran in. So about a month later I decided I wanted a comfortable pair of shoes so on a whim went into lifestyle and bought the Nike cause they are comfortable .

Now I run wearing both , the brooks for shorter runs cause I hate them .

However since I stopped wearing kayanos and started with the neutral shoes ( about three years ago) I have been plagued by injury despite my nikes been so comfortable .

So when the guy who wouldn't sell me insoles and didn't even have kayanos in stock said kayonos I just decided to go with it because I have worn them previously for about 10 years and didn't even know what injury was . And they are comfortable which I like .

One day when I can I will go to amphibian King or the run hub but I'm a bit of an impulse shopper and I just had to buy shoes today when the money was jingling in my pocket! Probably will regret not having patience . Apparently the new advice now is to wear what's comfortable !!! (Tried that once - rang 20k in sketchers-result not good!)