Netanyahu Calls On World To Halt Iran's March Of Conquest And Terror

karma_

SeanW wrote: »

Should Russia give back the Karelia region to Finland and the Sahkalin islands to Japan?

Morally, if not legally, Israel has a stronger claim to its occupied lands than the WWII allies.

Morally?

You're talking about a people who have lived in those areas for generation upon generation and you think it's moral they be removed and replaced? You're espousing nothing but the archaic nonsense of might is right, and what's worse is you're painting it as a moral argument. It's repugnant.

SeanW

karma_ wrote: »

Morally?

You're talking about a people who have lived in those areas for generation upon generation and you think it's moral they be removed and replaced? You're espousing nothing but the archaic nonsense of might is right, and what's worse is you're painting it as a moral argument. It's repugnant.

Would you apply the same logic to the Finns of Karelia? The Japanese on the Karafuto/Sahkalin islands?

Why are the Arabs of "Palestine" treated differently to the Finns of Karelia?

Padraig Mor

Sand wrote: »

there was no mechanism for them to lay claim to the territory, whereas Israel had a mechanism and applied it? The claim of an actual state over a territory trumps the claims of an imagined or imaginary state, correct??

What mechanism? I presume you refer to the United Nations resolution often misinterpreted as 'founding' the State of Israel? In fact, the resolution was a non-binding recommendation which gave no legitimate basis for the founding of the state. Further, many countries who voted for it subsequently revealed they had been strong armed by the US into doing so. Finally, the Israelis only cherry picked some parts of the resolution in founding their state, and completely ignored, or openly violated, the remainder.

SeanW wrote: »

Another group starts a genocidal war of annihilation (Arabs), their victims (who were themselves nearly annihilated only a few years previously in Europe) prevail and take some of their land. Law considers victim to be the aggressor

Another often repeated lie. The aggressor in the war of 1948 (and the years leading up to it) was the Israelis. An objective view of the historical records clearly shows that the Arab states only attacked after Israel grabbed lands to which it was not entitled under the UN terms, and massacred the inhabitants. The "War of Independence" was no such thing; rather, it was a smash and grab to get as much territory as possible - and **** the current inhabitants because Zionists were God's chosen people.

wes

SeanW wrote: »

Would you apply the same logic to the Finns of Karelia? The Japanese on the Karafuto/Sahkalin islands?

Why are the Arabs of "Palestine" treated differently to the Finns of Karelia?

So you support ethnic cleansing then? Honestly, it seem pretty clear to me that a lot of people who claim to lets say support a 2 state solution, in reality don't at all, as they seem to expend a lot of effort defending Israeli theft of Palestinian territory, which is ongoing.

**EDIT**
Also, perhaps its best to get back to the fact that a war mongering lunatic like Netanyahu, is trying to torpedo a nuclear deal with Iran, despite the fact that his own intelligence agency doesn't think they making nuclear weapons, and you know his own nations lack of signing up the NPT. IMHO, any country that isn't a signatory to the NPT, has no business getting involved in this. If Israel wants a seat at the table, then they need to sign up and allow inspections.

SeanW

wes wrote: »

So you support ethnic cleansing then?

Do you? Because that's exactly what occurred after WWII, indeed after most wars in human history.

wes

SeanW wrote: »

Do you? Because that's exactly what occurred after WWII, indeed after most wars in human history.

Not at all, but you see what is happening the Palestinians is happening now, and no 60/70 years ago. You can't change the past, but what we can do is make sure such outrage don't happen again.

IMHO, you are defacto defending Israeli theft of Palestinian land and the ongoing ethnic cleansing, and are just using what happened 60 years ago as a distraction. You see something that is happening right, has a lot more urgency then outrages that occurred in the past, as we can generally do something about the present.

Timberrrrrrrr

SeanW wrote: »

Do you? Because that's exactly what occurred after WWII, indeed after most wars in human history.

The past cannot be changed, the future can.

SeanW

wes wrote: »

Also, perhaps its best to get back to the fact that a war mongering lunatic like Netanyahu, is trying to torpedo a nuclear deal with Iran, despite the fact that his own intelligence agency doesn't think they making nuclear weapons.

I plan to respond to some of the other points later on when I have time but for now: I agree with this part (only) as if it's clear that Iran isn't looking for nuclear weapons, then fear mongering in this regard is gravely irresponsible. I hope the Israeli people have the sense not to re-elect him.

Just a little Samba

SeanW wrote: »

I plan to respond to some of the other points later on when I have time but for now: I agree with this part (only) as if it's clear that Iran isn't looking for nuclear weapons, then fear mongering in this regard is gravely irresponsible. I hope the Israeli people have the sense not to re-elect him.

If the polls are to be believed the ZU has an edge but it might be easier for Bibi and co to find partners for a coalition than it will be for ZU if neither can secure a majority.
Hopefully ZU can get a majority or pull in some independents to get over the mark.

For Reals

Comparing the current group known as Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory to any historic incident, be it WWII or whatever is laughable. Killing during a war is only acceptable because it's a war. A war is not the preferred way for two groups to communicate or do business, it's the last remaining option when diplomacy fails. It's being posted about like Israel applied for a bank loan rather than was invented, populated and proceeded to terrorize, demonise and massacre the indigenous population to further their own bastardised cause. The Israeli group should have applied for visas and requested the creation of a settlement within Palestine. That would have been the civil humanitarian thing to do.

Back on topic:
Netanyahu is against arms talks with Iran because he wants them to be the bogeyman and deflect from Israel. He fears peace. If Iran played ball and became friends with the west the spotlight would be on the Israeli group's regime.

Gringo180

The same people in here defending the annexing of Palestinian land by the Zionists would be the same people against the Russian annexation of Crimea. Hypocrites!

Icepick

Two ridiculous statements were made - genocide and apartheid.
When evidence to support such claims was requested, the topic was shifted to 'land grab'.
So can anyone defend the claims?

Icepick

Gringo180 wrote: »

The same people in here defending the annexing of Palestinian land by the Zionists would be the same people against the Russian annexation of Crimea. Hypocrites!

Ironic, because the anti Israeli crowd is nowhere to be seen when it comes to Russian annexation of Crimea and parts of Eastern Ukraine.
Where is the outrage and mass protests against what actually is an indefensible land grab?

Nodin

Icepick wrote: »

Two ridiculous statements were made - genocide and apartheid.
When evidence to support such claims was requested, the topic was shifted to 'land grab'.
So can anyone defend the claims?

There is a two tier system of justice in the occupied territories, resources are allocated along sectarian/ethnic lines, land seized off Palestinians, there are "settler" only roads and areas, while Palestinians must endure checkpoints etc. The IDF notoriously turn a blind eye to settler violence.
http://www.btselem.org/list_of_topics
http://www.yesh-din.org/

Icepick wrote:

Ironic, because the anti Israeli crowd is nowhere to be seen when it comes to
Russian annexation of Crimea and parts of Eastern Ukraine.
Where is the
outrage and mass protests against what actually is an indefensible land grab?

Why would protesters be protesting against Russia when there are already sanctions in place?

beerpong

Icepick wrote: »

Ironic, because the anti Israeli crowd is nowhere to be seen when it comes to Russian annexation of Crimea and parts of Eastern Ukraine.
Where is the outrage and mass protests against what actually is an indefensible land grab?

Maybe if the Russians bombed the locals from the land, built a big wall and settled people on the land solely based on religious views there would be outrage.
How many Palestinian families are dying right now as they try to live in destroyed homes with supplies being actively banned from entering the region?
This latest bombing by the Israelis was to clear the local population and nothing to do with protection or security. They are creating an atmosphere to make the Palestinian children not want to live on the land anymore. Netanahu is leading these children straight to Hamas and is their biggest recruiter.
How far can a Palestinian walk in this land before having to pass through a checkpoint? How time consuming and dangerous it is to visit their families? These people who are having their land taken and children beating, arrested and killed are being treated like lower life forms or second class citizens.

Back on topic , without some diabolical enemy the empirical establishments can not get away with what they want to do. The fear mongering and propaganda is used to subdue the people and create sympathy for the aggressors.

Gringo180

Icepick wrote: »

Ironic, because the anti Israeli crowd is nowhere to be seen when it comes to Russian annexation of Crimea and parts of Eastern Ukraine.
Where is the outrage and mass protests against what actually is an indefensible land grab?

I dont see any mass murder of the civilian population in Crimea by the Russians.

For Reals

Icepick wrote: »

Two ridiculous statements were made - genocide and apartheid.
When evidence to support such claims was requested, the topic was shifted to 'land grab'.
So can anyone defend the claims?

So that's land annexation/occupation and now massacre......you're up.

Icepick

For Reals wrote: »

So that's land annexation/occupation and now massacre......you're up.

Again, where is the evidence showing a genocide, intended and in practice? Do you even know what the word means?

Icepick

Nodin wrote: »

There is a two tier system of justice in the occupied territories, resources are allocated along sectarian/ethnic lines, land seized off Palestinians, there are "settler" only roads and areas, while Palestinians must endure checkpoints etc. The IDF notoriously turn a blind eye to settler violence.
http://www.btselem.org/list_of_topics
http://www.yesh-din.org/

Stay on topic - apartheid was the claim.
What rights that Jewish Israelis have do Arab Israelis not have?

Brian Shanahan

Icepick wrote: »

Two factual, well evidenced statements were made - genocide and apartheid.

MOD: See below warning.
Fixed your first sentence for accuracy. The Israeli, jewish exclusive, state was founded on the mass murder of 700,000 non-jewish indigenous people, descendants of the Roman era inhabitants. The apartheid is well evidenced by the way that Palestinians are constantly under surveilance, denied the right to travel within their own land (never mind within Israel), under army orders, the army being an illegal army of occupation. Women have died in childbirth (and worse) because of the apartheid rules being imposed on the Palestinian people by the Israeli regime, for no good reasom.

When evidence to support such claims was requested, the topic was shifted to 'land grab'.

A lie as you bloody well know. The land grab, the most massive one since Nazi Germany (in fact the treatment of non jews by the state of Israel is becoming less like apartheid SA and more like Nazi Germany every day) is an essential element of the apartheid and genocide policies of the Israeli state.

So can anyone defend the claims?

The question you should be asking is "How can I, Icepick, be defending one of the most illegal and immoral regimes in history?" Because by your blind, rose-spectacled defence of a murderous regime, you are showing yourself in a very bad light.

Nodin

Icepick wrote: »

Stay on topic - apartheid was the claim.?

And there is an Apartheid system in place in the occupied territories.

Icepick wrote: »

What rights that Jewish Israelis have do Arab Israelis not have?

The issue is not what happens within Israel (though there are problems there) but what happens to the vast majority of the Palestinian population, located in the OT.

JRant

Looks like AIPAC are ramping up their efforts.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.646440

""During my 29 years in the Senate I never heard of, or even heard of it being proposed, anything comparable to this," Kerry said. "This letter ignores more than two centuries of precedent in the conduct of American foreign policy.""

It's quite surreal to see this going on.

JRant

Nodin wrote: »

And there is an Apartheid system in place in the occupied territories.




The issue is not what happens within Israel (though there are problems there) but what happens to the vast majority of the Palestinian population, located in the OT.

No Apartheid there at all!

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/17436-the-zionist-unions-plan-for-a-palestinian-bantustan

Looks like no matter who wins the upcoming election the future is far from rosey for the Palestinians.

Gringo180

Icepick wrote: »

Again, where is the evidence showing a genocide, intended and in practice? Do you even know what the word means?

So the 1000s of Palestinian people slaughtered in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camp at the hands of the Israelis wasnt genocide?

Icepick

Nodin wrote: »

And there is an Apartheid system in place in the occupied territories.




The issue is not what happens within Israel (though there are problems there) but what happens to the vast majority of the Palestinian population, located in the OT.

So no apartheid system in Israel. Glad to have that cleared up.
As for palestinian territories, the Hamas justice system is indeed despicable.

Hamas justice system 'reeks of injustice,' rights group says
[url]Http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/03/world/meast/gaza-hamas-abuses/index.html[/url]

JRant

Icepick wrote: »

So no apartheid system in Israel. Glad to have that cleared up.
As for palestinian territories, the Hamas justice system is indeed despicable.
[url]Http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/03/world/meast/gaza-hamas-abuses/index.html[/url]

Of course there is.

What about the Apartheid wall?
Isreali only roads?
Etc etc

Timberrrrrrrr

So if we are to believe Netty and posters in here Iran is a closed state where non Muslims are not welcome and every person there wants Jews wiped out?

This kinda blows that argument out of the water.



http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/11/middleeast/iran-jews-esfahan/index.html

Iran's Jewish community in Esfahan: We 'feel at home'

By Frederik Pleitgen, CNN

Esfahan, Iran (CNN)If you're looking for the Jewish community in the Iranian town of Esfahan, you won't have to search for long.

The main synagogue is on Palestine Square, right in the heart of Iran's third largest city. There are public prayers several times a day -- sometimes with more than a hundred people in attendance.

I hang around with all kinds of young people and I have a lot of Muslim friends," Malakon tells CNN after finishing the noon prayer on a Monday. About 20 people were in attendance, usually from local businesses around the synagogue. None of them tried to hide the fact that they were Jewish -- and inside the synagogue the Star of David is proudly displayed in many places, alongside passages from the Torah.

"Of course sometimes people we know who live in Israel or elsewhere are very concerned about us, and they tell us we are crazy to live here," he says. "But then we tell them how things are and they calm down."

Just a little Samba

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So if we are to believe Netty and posters in here Iran is a closed state where non Muslims are not welcome and every person there wants Jews wiped out?

This kinda blows that argument out of the water.



http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/11/middleeast/iran-jews-esfahan/index.html

Iran's Jewish community in Esfahan: We 'feel at home'

By Frederik Pleitgen, CNN

The Jewish community in Tehran is about 20,000 people, they have their own representatives in local and national government and actually have more representatives per capita than any other ethnic group.

Black Swan

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Fixed your first sentence for accuracy.

MOD: FYP can be misleading, often considered trollish, generally causes problems between members, and is therefore not condoned. Please refrain from doing so in the Politics forums.

Icepick

JRant wrote: »

Of course there is.

What about the Apartheid wall?
Isreali only roads?
Etc etc

Well what about them?
Do you agree with how the Palestinians handle their justice system?