Netanyahu Calls On World To Halt Iran's March Of Conquest And Terror

jank

JRant wrote: »

Au contraire, the people in those regions see the carnage going on around them daily.

It's the US of A who need to take responsibility for their actions in the region. There is hardly a single thing that happens in the middle east without them having some input in it.
Since the 2nd World War successive American governments have tried to control the worlds energy supply. Unfortunately for the people of the Middle East they sit on top of a huge supply of this.

This leads back to Isreal, which is in fact a defacto oversees american military base and is used to control the region.

In summary.. Israel and USA are totally responsible for the current state of the Middle East. No mention on the elephant in the room, that is Islam and the more extreme versions of it? No? Especially the long running 1000 year old Sunni vs Shia rivalry? Israel to blame for that too?

I think you are giving these countries far too much credit in how they can influence an entire region.

JRant

Icepick wrote: »

USA are responsible for the islamofascist governments terrorizing the populace?

Well lets see.

Suadi Arabia enjoys the full military backing of the USA. The same Suadi that is the breeding ground for Wahhabism.

The CIA were responsible for the coup that ousted the democratically elected leader in Iran.

Saddam enjoyed the full support of the US until he didn't do exactly as he was told. Then proceeded to completely destroy the country's ability to govern itself.

This in turn paved the way for IS to take hold. Leading to the destabilisation of Syria. Now Assad is most certainly a dictator but the diversity of the Syria population was assured under him. The Catholic population has gone from 10% to roughly 3% since the civil war began.

So yes they do need to accept some responsibility.

jank

JRant wrote: »

Well lets see.

Suadi Arabia enjoys the full military backing of the USA. The same Suadi that is the breeding ground for Wahhabism.

The CIA were responsible for the coup that ousted the democratically elected leader in Iran.

Saddam enjoyed the full support of the US until he didn't do exactly as he was told. Then proceeded to completely destroy the country's ability to govern itself.

This in turn paved the way for IS to take hold. Leading to the destabilisation of Syria. Now Assad is most certainly a dictator but the diversity of the Syria population was assured under him. The Catholic population has gone from 10% to roughly 3% since the civil war began.

So yes they do need to accept some responsibility.

What makes you think that Iraq could have self governed without Saddam in a peaceful fashion? The country was held together by the strong arm of Saddam. Sure you even made reference to Assad which has held Syria together in a similar way. Take away Assad and we see what has happened. Take away Saddam, the same. Take away the House of Saud, the same again will happen there. This is not of course advocating that strong men should rule these countries but its naive to think that utopia was achievable if there was no outside interference.

Hence why the region is so unstable. A nation state exists with a common set of shared values. With so many different sets of tribes in the Middle East who harbor lots of grudges the common denominator is either religion which unifies a country or a strong man who take a country over by force and uses force to keep it together

In my mind a similar situation to Tito's Yugoslavia. We all know what happened in the Balkans when this powerful unifying force is taken away. A Balkainisation of the Middle East in my opinion is inevitable but will lead to massive loss of life. I think we are talking millions here sadly.

I note you ignore Egypt where the West were very much hands off post Arab Spring. Didn't realy end well there. Dammed if you, dammed if you don't.

In terms of responsibility yes, the West and Russians have to share some, as of course the region itself. No one mentions the old Ottoman Empire, the empire that ruled much of the region for the guts of 500 years, right before WWI. The US who have interfered for maybe 60 years gets all the blame, yet Turkey gets away with it even though they ruled for 500 years.

cerastes

Icepick wrote: »

USA are responsible for the islamofascist governments terrorizing the populace?

Must read more of history, puppets and dictators comes up a bit

BlaasForRafa

jank wrote: »

In terms of responsibility yes, the West and Russians have to share some, as of course the region itself. No one mentions the old Ottoman Empire, the empire that ruled much of the region for the guts of 500 years, right before WWI. The US who have interfered for maybe 60 years gets all the blame, yet Turkey gets away with it even though they ruled for 500 years.

Ironically the Ottomans ruled much of what is now the former yugoslavia for 500 odd years too.

jank

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Ironically the Ottomans ruled much of what is now the former yugoslavia for 500 odd years too.

A taste of things to come perhaps. I remember anti-war demonstrations from the usual crowd in the early 90's protesting against NATO action in bombing Serbian held strong points while at the same time the Serbs were engaging in ethnic cleansing. No anti-war demonstrations against these Serbs though. I swear, if the same people were around in the 40's they would protest D-Day.

Gringo180

jank wrote: »

A taste of things to come perhaps. I remember anti-war demonstrations from the usual crowd in the early 90's protesting against NATO action in bombing Serbian held strong points while at the same time the Serbs were engaging in ethnic cleansing. No anti-war demonstrations against these Serbs though. I swear, if the same people were around in the 40's they would protest D-Day.

The funny thing is that the Israeli's are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians but you seem to be always on defending them and why on earth would any anti war crowd protest D-Day, it was Hitler on the march occupying other countries. The Nazi regime seems to have a few things in common with the Zionists in power in Israel dont you think?

BoJack Horseman

Gringo180 wrote: »

The funny thing is that the Israeli's are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians

It must be the most inept 'cleanse' in history.
The Palestinian population keeps growing.

(Or its just a lazy cliché)

Nodin

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It must be the most inept 'cleanse' in history.
The Palestinian population keeps growing.

(Or its just a lazy cliché)

Or perhaps you don't understand the term. They wish to take land, but do not want the Palestinians that are on that land. Therefore they drive out by various means the Palestinian population - ethnic cleansing.

jank

Gringo180 wrote: »

The funny thing is that the Israeli's are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians but you seem to be always on defending them and why on earth would any anti war crowd protest D-Day, it was Hitler on the march occupying other countries. The Nazi regime seems to have a few things in common with the Zionists in power in Israel dont you think?

What ever about the IDF apparent heavy handedness in Gaza the past 6 years, real or otherwise they are not engaging in ethnic cleansing. Such flimsy use of language does a disservice to the Muslims that died in the Balkans, the Armenians in Turkey and to the Jews in Eastern Europe who were actually ethnically cleansed.

Using big emotive words with heavy conotations does not make your claim anymore true and in fact leads to people dismissing your views as hysterical.

As the poster above me has pointed out, the number of Palestinians have been growing compared to Jewish Israelis for over 40 years. So, the facts are either the IDF and the Israelis are totally incompetent in ethnically cleansing the West Bank and Gaza or its perhaps the simplest explanation and counter argument... its not happening. Occams' razor wins again.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Or perhaps you don't understand the term. They wish to take land, but do not want the Palestinians that are on that land. Therefore they drive out by various means the Palestinian population - ethnic cleansing.

Being flamboyant with the truth there. In 2004 Israeli's gave back land to the Palestinians in Gaza and dismantled Jewish Settlements. The also gave back the Sinai to Egypt 1979 after a peace agreement.

Just a little Samba

UN definition of Ethnic Cleansing:

"rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group"

Sounds fierce like the West Bank and East Jerusalem to me what with the house demolitions, settlement expansions, Jew only roads and zones in towns and "outposts".

But sure aren't they great, they moved settlers out of Gaza and turned it into the worlds largest open air prison, the kind souls.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

What ever about the IDF apparent heavy handedness in Gaza the past 6 years, real or otherwise they are not engaging in ethnic cleansing..............

As pointed out

UN wrote:

rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group"

eg
http://www.yesh-din.org/postview.asp?postid=287

http://www.yesh-din.org/postview.asp?postid=299

http://www.btselem.org/facing_expulsion_blog

Personally I find denial of this fact revolting.

Jank wrote:

Being flamboyant with the truth there. In 2004 Israeli's gave back land to the
Palestinians in Gaza and dismantled Jewish Settlements.

....in order to concentrate resources on the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem and wrongfoot Arafat.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3720176.stm

Nodin

.................and to follow on from Post 347 with a further example

"A hard-hitting EU report on Jerusalem warns that the city has reached a dangerous boiling point of “polarisation and violence” not seen since the end of the second intifada in 2005.

Calling for tougher European sanctions against Israel over its continued settlement construction in the city – which it blames for exacerbating recent conflict – the leaked document paints a devastating picture of a city more divided than at any time since 1967, when Israeli forces occupied the east of the city.
........................

The leaked report describes the emergence of a “vicious cycle of violence … increasingly threatening the viability of the two-state solution”, which it says has been stoked by the continuation of “systematic” settlement building by Israel in “sensitive areas” of Jerusalem.

In addition the report blames tension over the status of the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount complex as well as heavy-handed policing and punitive measures – including evictions and home demolitions by Israeli forces – for the escalating confrontation."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/20/jerusalem-at-boiling-point-of-polarisation-and-violence-eu-report
(my bold)
Ethnic cleansing, clear as day.

end of the road

jank wrote: »

What ever about the IDF apparent heavy handedness in Gaza the past 6 years, real or otherwise they are not engaging in ethnic cleansing. Such flimsy use of language does a disservice to the Muslims that died in the Balkans, the Armenians in Turkey and to the Jews in Eastern Europe who were actually ethnically cleansed.

Using big emotive words with heavy conotations does not make your claim anymore true and in fact leads to people dismissing your views as hysterical.

As the poster above me has pointed out, the number of Palestinians have been growing compared to Jewish Israelis for over 40 years. So, the facts are either the IDF and the Israelis are totally incompetent in ethnically cleansing the West Bank and Gaza or its perhaps the simplest explanation and counter argument... its not happening. Occams' razor wins again.

oh they are ethnically cleansing all right. butchering on a mass scale from time to time. just because the population is growing doesn't change that, it will just take longer for them to do it.

Timberrrrrrrr

end of the road wrote: »

oh they are ethnically cleansing all right. butchering on a mass scale from time to time. just because the population is growing doesn't change that, it will just take longer for them to do it.

I'm no fan of the Israeli regime but your posts are embarrassing and actually turn people away from this thread and actually helps stifle debate on this issue.

end of the road

netanyahu is a dangerous psycopathic low rent evil terrorist raving ranting loony who needs to be removed for the greater good. he is a war criminal and a butcher and wants the current conflict to continue. his nonsense about iran is just that, as he is jealous that iran is slowly but surely moving forward. while they have a long way to go i think one day they will get to being a country operating on its full potential which business can be done with, while people will wake up and get board of israels antics, something that is slowly happening all ready. times ara changing and israel should be given a choice to except the 2 state solution or be left out in the cold

end of the road

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'm no fan of the Israeli regime but your posts are embarrassing and actually turn people away from this thread and actually helps stifle debate on this issue.

i disagree. its telling it as i see it.

JRant

jank wrote: »

What makes you think that Iraq could have self governed without Saddam in a peaceful fashion? The country was held together by the strong arm of Saddam. Sure you even made reference to Assad which has held Syria together in a similar way. Take away Assad and we see what has happened. Take away Saddam, the same. Take away the House of Saud, the same again will happen there. This is not of course advocating that strong men should rule these countries but its naive to think that utopia was achievable if there was no outside interference.

Hence why the region is so unstable. A nation state exists with a common set of shared values. With so many different sets of tribes in the Middle East who harbor lots of grudges the common denominator is either religion which unifies a country or a strong man who take a country over by force and uses force to keep it together

In my mind a similar situation to Tito's Yugoslavia. We all know what happened in the Balkans when this powerful unifying force is taken away. A Balkainisation of the Middle East in my opinion is inevitable but will lead to massive loss of life. I think we are talking millions here sadly.

I note you ignore Egypt where the West were very much hands off post Arab Spring. Didn't realy end well there. Dammed if you, dammed if you don't.

In terms of responsibility yes, the West and Russians have to share some, as of course the region itself. No one mentions the old Ottoman Empire, the empire that ruled much of the region for the guts of 500 years, right before WWI. The US who have interfered for maybe 60 years gets all the blame, yet Turkey gets away with it even though they ruled for 500 years.

We'll never know if Iraq could have transitioned in a peaceful manner though. Nature abhors a vacuum and the US created a huge one when they went in all "shock and awe".

The strong arm tactics imposed by saddam were of course abhorrent. Nobody can deny that. But look at the devastation caused firstly by US led sanctions on millions of ordinary Iraqi's. This was a regime that daddy Bush had great time for and held them in favour until they disobeyed him.

The same can be said of Iran. It was heading in the right direction until the US decided it was against their best interests to allow a democratically elect government rule.

More recently when Brasil was offering to exchange low enriched materials for fuel rods the US threw their toys out of the pram. Sanctions were threatened and that was the end of the matter. Yet this was a solution that ensured Iran could develop their power stations and not have to bother with the enrichment programmes.

I didn't mention Egypt initially but they are also another case of the US thinkering in the region.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2011/12/usa-repeatedly-shipped-arms-supplies-egyptian-security-forces/

The US have an enormous responsability to own up to in the region. The sooner this happens the sooner a real resolution to the problems affecting it can be resolved.

If your going to mention the Ottomans and it's 500 year rule can we mention the Romans too?

I'm not sure what relevance they have considering it's over 100 years since they ruled anywhere. Especially when we have recent historical documentation that proves the US has been meddling in the past 40 years up to and including today.

Icepick

Nodin wrote: »

Or perhaps you don't understand the term. They wish to take land, but do not want the Palestinians that are on that land. Therefore they drive out by various means the Palestinian population - ethnic cleansing.

Lying again. The Palestinian population within Israel is growing too.
Here is the graph again:

Nodin

Icepick wrote: »

Lying again. The Palestinian population within Israel is growing too.
Here is the graph again:

I'm sorry but there seems to be some willfull misunderstanding going on here. In the areas I've mentioned, the Palestinian population is moved out by various methods to facilitate the construction of settlements and the expansion of the colonist population. It's fairly clearly cut, and I'm not sure what saying "the Palestinian population is growing" repeatedly is supposed to achieve.

You might actually engage with the information provided
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94759401&postcount=347

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94760076&postcount=348

Just a little Samba

Icepick wrote: »

Lying again. The Palestinian population within Israel is growing too.
Here is the graph again:

You mean the arab Israeli population inside Israel is rising? As in, non-Jewish Israeli citizens?
What has that got to do with the ongoing land grabs in the West Bank and Palestinian East Jerusalem?

PopePalpatine

From the looks of that graph, it could be explained by a slightly higher birthrate for Arabs than Jews.

Just a little Samba

PopePalpatine wrote: »

From the looks of that graph, it could be explained by a slightly higher birthrate for Arabs than Jews.

I still fail to see how the demographics of Israeli changing in a fashion which is consistent with everything we know about demographics and birthrates on an international level, ie poorer ethnic groups tend to have higher birth rates and a younger average age than more wealthy ethnic groups in general, has anything to do with the blatant and unashamed ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Palestinian East Jeresulam.

If anyone knows please feel free to let me in on the secret here.

It's not like the leader of Israel said openly in the media last week that he plans on expanding settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem after being re-elected or anything.

Oh wait, yes he did.

Nodin

Just a little Samba wrote: »

I still fail to see how the demographics of Israeli changing in a fashion which is consistent with everything we know about demographics and birthrates on an international level, ie poorer ethnic groups tend to have higher birth rates and a younger average age than more wealthy ethnic groups in general, has anything to do with the blatant and unashamed ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Palestinian East Jeresulam.

If anyone knows please feel free to let me in on the secret here.

It's not like the leader of Israel said openly in the media last week that he plans on expanding settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem after being re-elected or anything.

Oh wait, yes he did.

And indeed that's what been happening anyway, so whiles its "news" its not exactly new.

Karl Stein

The Israelis vacated Sinai because the Americans told them to.

Gringo180

jank wrote: »

In 2004 Israeli's gave back land to the Palestinians

How can you give back something that doesn't belong to you? Israel is a terrorist state and at the moment are being governed by a maniac.

What sort of civilised democracy targets civilian infrastructure in the way they do? Why aren't they held to task for the war crimes they commit?

I don't see how any decent human being can defend what Israel has done and are continuing to do in Gaza, The West Bank and East Jerusalem.

JRant

jank wrote: »

In summary.. Israel and USA are totally responsible for the current state of the Middle East. No mention on the elephant in the room, that is Islam and the more extreme versions of it? No? Especially the long running 1000 year old Sunni vs Shia rivalry? Israel to blame for that too?

I think you are giving these countries far too much credit in how they can influence an entire region.

Sorry jank, I completely missed this post.

No, I do not think that the US and Isreal are totally responsable for the current state of the region. Never said they did. They do however need to accept a large proportion of responsibility for the current climate.

Islam is not the elephant in the room at all. The West has been fighting Islam for centuries. From the crusaders to the Moors.

SeanW

Nodin wrote: »

.................and to follow on from Post 347 with a further example

"A hard-hitting EU report on Jerusalem warns that the city has reached a dangerous boiling point of “polarisation and violence” not seen since the end of the second intifada in 2005.

Calling for tougher European sanctions against Israel over its continued settlement construction in the city – which it blames for exacerbating recent conflict – the leaked document paints a devastating picture of a city more divided than at any time since 1967, when Israeli forces occupied the east of the city.
........................

Ethnic cleansing, clear as day.

Yeah, the Israelis are evil monsters trying to "ethnically cleanse" "Palestine" of Arabs and Muslims ...

Oh wait - the above is demonstrably false by looking at the history of Arab citizens of Israel. Not only is Israels population 20% arab (and 5% others) leaving the so-called Jewish state only about 75% Jewish (and falling every year), but Arabic is an official working language of Israel - many road signs are trilngual - Hebrew first, Arabic second and English third). Israeli Arabs have served at very high levels in every major institution of Israel from its military and municipal police forces, through the Knessett to all important judicial bodies.

If I supported Israel because I liked the idea of ethnic cleansing (I don't), I'd be looking for my (figurative) money back, because if their objective is to have no Arabs in lands claimed by Israel they're doing a pretty piss-poor job of it.

end of the road

SeanW wrote: »

Yeah, the Israelis are evil monsters trying to "ethnically cleanse" "Palestine" of Arabs and Muslims ...

Oh wait - the above is demonstrably false by looking at the history of Arab citizens of Israel. Not only is Israels population 20% arab (and 5% others) leaving the so-called Jewish state only about 75% Jewish (and falling every year), but Arabic is an official working language of Israel - many road signs are trilngual - Hebrew first, Arabic second and English third). Israeli Arabs have served at very high levels in every major institution of Israel from its military and municipal police forces, through the Knessett to all important judicial bodies.

If I supported Israel because I liked the idea of ethnic cleansing (I don't), I'd be looking for my (figurative) money back, because if their objective is to have no Arabs in lands claimed by Israel they're doing a pretty piss-poor job of it.

no, its just the palestinians they want cleansed so they can steal the land and create a bigger state