National Hurling League 2015 General Discussion

Fireball07

So the hurling leagues start up this weekend, should be interesting as usual. I think the move to 6 teams per division has made things more competitive, although I would definitely be in favour of bringing back a divisional final for promotion from 1B. But otherwise it's good. And while I think that 4 quarter-finals for both 1A and 1B is inherently wrong, it does work so I'll go with it.


Hard to know how the top 2 divisions will go. We have 3 All-Ireland semi-finalists from last year in 1A as well as the champions from 2013, Clare, as well as Dublin & Galway. Purely on paper, you'd think that the last two teams mentioned are the weakest but it's hard to know how teams will settle and a bad start can cost you a place in the division really. KK generally take the league seriously, and although they'll be missing players, you'd imagine they'd be okay. Same with Tipp. Clare will probably take it seriously enough this year, just to lay down a marker after last year's poor Championship. Hard to know how Dublin will fare under Cunningham and Galway have tended to be alright in the league, getting to a semi-final again last year. And then you have Cork... I think it's very hard to separate between those teams and it does make for an interesting league.


In 1B, you'd expect Limerick to come up but they were pipped to the post the last 2 years. The game against Waterford on Saturday will be important but Wexford are also improving and won't be content with playing second fiddle. I think the intent of the 6-team leagues was to improve overall standards and it does seem to have happened. Laois are also going on the right track and shouldn't be underestimated; will Offaly or Antrim be improved this year? If they did, it would make for an excellent division too.



I don't really know enough about the lower divisions to comment, but people are still welcome to comment!

randd1

Not sure Kilkenny will win it.

The Ballyhale contingent won't be there, there's obviously been a good few retirements, and Larkin and Richie Power are supposedly injured for a few weeks as well. Unless Cody can find a good few rabbits in the hat, I don't see Kilkenny winning it without a good portion of the personnel they had last year. Though trying out new lads in the league wouldn't be the worst thing for Kilkenny to do.

Think myself if they really go for it and are in the mood, the league will be Tipp's to lose.

MfMan

Will test Galway to make progress also. JC (6 weeks at least), Conor Cooney, David Burke all currently injured. Daithi Burke, who impressed last year, may not be available til after Patrick's day because of Corofin. Will need to win their home games at a minimum but the county board insist on playing these in recently-resurfaced Pearse stadium (just wait for the outcry next Monday about the state of it) instead of Athenry, the real home venue for the team. The Walsh Cup win will give them a bit of heart but Cunningham has no excuses this year.

PTH2009

I think Clare will win the league this year they will be back with a bang

Clare vs Kilkenny final

Galway vs Dublin will be the relegation playoff In 1a

In 1b I can see limerick winning promotion, Wexford second. I think waterford cud struggle a bit, Laois are inproving and will be a tough test for any team in the division

Qf

Clare vs waterford
Kilkenny vs Laois
Tipp vs Wexford
Cork vs limerick

Davys Fits

Not sure who will win but am looking forward to what should be 2 tight groups at the top. The 6 team group is the best we have had. The quarter final thing can be good for the teams in 1b but gives an unfair advantage to a teams in 1a who had a poor campaign. Roll on the hurling!

Fireball07

On paper, Cork's loss to Kilkenny is absolutely awful.... had a pretty strong team out against a KK team missing lots of stars. I didn't see it but it's not a great start.

Limerick-Waterford was an interesting game; Waterford were the better team but Limerick's lack of firepower up front was a killer. If any of Hannon or Dowling or Downes or Mulcahy had been available, you think that might have been enough to drag us over the line, or if Jim-Bob had started. Waterford looked good though, some very nice hurlers.

Laois lost to Offaly, missed 2 penalties... good result for Offaly in O'Moore Park, I expected Laois to win it.

citykat

KK CK result is a surprise. The CK performance was an even bigger surprise. Given their last championship performance against Tipp, you would've thought they'd be chomping at the bit to make amends. Dunno. Maybe they got sucked in by all the talk of who KK were missing rather than focus on the match itself. Regardless CK have work to do. In a way though this could work to JBMs advantage. He can flog em and they couldn't possibly complain. It is ironic though, the criticism Cuthbert gets here and yet he's 2 for 2.

Fireball07

Nice goal by Dublin, Eamon Dillon, 6 points up on Tipp now.

Fireball07

Tipp hitting a lot of wides, Dublin by far the better team so far.

Rightwing

I can't see how the kk-cork match was a surprise. I'd have cork down as relegation favourites. Tipp probably to win 1A.

Dyr

Barry Kelly doing his utmost to put tipp back in this.

Kavrocks

Bambi wrote: »

Barry Kelly doing his utmost to put tipp back in this.

Watched the game twice now and I can't believe how much favouritism he showed towards Tipp. 8 wrong decisions I counted.

I think Cork have put too much emphasis on the 'JBM factor'. They seem to think like it is their right to win a Championship title with him but time and time again they haven't delivered when it counts. Still surprised Kilkenny beat them with so many retirees and the Ballyhale contingent missing. I guess Cody has what Cork wish JBM had! Still Kilkenny are definitely ripe for the taking next week in Nowlan Park.

Realt Dearg Sec

Kavrocks wrote: »

Watched the game twice now and I can't believe how much favouritism he showed towards Tipp. 8 wrong decisions I counted.

I think Cork have put too much emphasis on the 'JBM factor'. They seem to think like it is their right to win a Championship title with him but time and time again they haven't delivered when it counts. Still surprised Kilkenny beat them with so many retirees and the Ballyhale contingent missing. I guess Cody has what Cork wish JBM had! Still Kilkenny are definitely ripe for the taking next week in Nowlan Park.

Wouldn't read anything whatsoever into the first match of the year, let alone basing predictions for championship on it. Cork were disappointing but they were playing to an interesting and at times very effective passing game plan, if they stick to it I'd say they'll be a serious contender this year, it's just a problem rehearsing a game plan this early in the year, mistakes will happen.

Fireball07

Round One Results

Division 1A
Cork 2-17 Kilkenny 1-22
Dublin 2-20 Tipperary 0-14
Galway 2-15 Clare 1-17

All of those results are perhaps a slight shock, I really expected a strong-looking Cork team to beat a weaker-looking Kilkenny side down in Cork but KK were by far the better team and teams who don't win their home games tend to be in trouble. Having put out a strong team, Cork will have to make amends next weekend at home to Clare or they could be as good as in the relegation play-off already. Tipp also had a pretty decent team out, but it's more the manner of the defeat than the defeat itself that is a surprise. Big, important win for Dublin and for Ger Cunningham; he's made a few positional changes and if he can find a couple of forwards who can step up in the Championship, it will have been a successful campaign. Galway still look a bit limited, but an excellent win against Clare, who also would seem to have the same weaknesses. The only thing is that you'd expect Clare to improve as the ground hardens up, while Galway are more likely to disimprove, unless they inject a bit of pace.


Division 1B
Laois 0-23 Offaly 1-24
Limerick 2-16 Waterford 0-22
Wexford 1-24 Antrim 2-20


Bad loss for Laois, I definitely thought they'd beat Offaly. But good news for Offaly who have had a poor couple of years, hopefully they can build on this. Waterford looked good against Limerick but couldn't beat us; they seem to be heading in the right direction though. It's likely to come down to points difference now unless one of those teams lose to Wexford. Wexford just scraped past Antrim but only had 14 men for most. Must fancy their chances of topping the division now.

Fireball07

With only 5 games in each division, every single point is important.

One of Kilkenny or Dublin could basically stave off relegation after only two games, which would give them room for a bit of experimentation then. Both had great starts considering... KK are home, but Dublin looked very sharp against Tipp. I think Dublin might get a win here, although write KK off at your peril, as they say.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, if one of Cork and Clare lose, they could be in big trouble. The Cork team looks stronger with Walsh back at midfield, McLoughlin at half-back; with Cronin & O'Sullivan both dropped up front. Cork at home again, and desperately need to make amends for an awful display against a weakened KK side. Clare haven't named their team yet, but will be disappointed not to have beaten Galway; Tony Kelly & David McInerney both missed UL's game through injury but you'd feel that if the likes of Conor McGrath start, Cork can be got at. Cork beat Clare in the Championship last year though and at home, pretty much have to win, or they'll be in a relegation play-off.

Tipp host Galway too, Tipp haven't named their team yet but were way off the pace against Dublin despite a strong team. Galway are missing a lot of players but have a big, strong, physical team; well suited to this time of year. I would have question marks over some of them and I expect Tipp to bounce back at home tbh.




In 1B, Limerick's team looks stronger with the return of Ryan and Dowling; along with both Morrisseys starting. Away to Antrim is a tough ask but I think we can get the win and hopefully target goals.

Waterford-Laois will be hugely interesting... I reckon Laois will be gutted not to have got something against Offaly, Waterford will be disappointed not have beaten Limerick. I was impressed with Waterford against Limerick, but this is the kind of game where they have to lay down a marker. Laois are a good side, but at home, Waterford have to win if they want to go up... and they probably need to get a decent-ish margin too... Offaly got 4 points, Waterford would nearly want 7 or 8 at least. Anything more would give them a huge, huge advantage.

Offaly did brilliantly to beat Laois, Wexford scraped past Antrim. Are Offaly finally back on the right track? If they got anything against Wexford, it would be a bit of a shock, and a huge blow to Wexford's chances. But a strong league campaign would be great for Offaly and great for hurling in general to have another strong team; Wexford showed what they could do last year, dumping out Clare & Waterford, and have had good U-21 teams; I expect them to win tbh. Dooley scored 1-14 against Laois, he's a class act, but I suppose you can't rely too much on one player either.



I predict wins for Dublin, Cork, Tipp, Limerick, Waterford and Wexford.

dastardly00

I'm only getting to watch the highlights from last week now. Jaysus the finish of the Galway-Clare game was fairly rowdy at the end :pac:

But Jason Flynn showed fantastic nerve and skill to score that free at the end despite all hell breaking loose on thw sideline only a couple of yards away from him.

letowski

dastardly00 wrote: »

I'm only getting to watch the highlights from last week now. Jaysus the finish of the Galway-Clare game was fairly rowdy at the end :pac:

But Jason Flynn showed fantastic nerve and skill to score that free at the end despite all hell breaking loose on thw sideline only a couple of yards away from him.

He did very well in fairness as he had missed a few throughout the game, and that was a tough one. It was shameful though, from one of the Clare hurley carriers roaring at Flynn, don't want to see anything like that again from my county. Galway's game v Tipp will be interesting, if they win, it would be some start for them with Canning, Cooney, Burke, Moore, etc out.

dastardly00

letowski wrote: »

He did very well in fairness as he had missed a few throughout the game, and that was a tough one. It was shameful though, from one of the Clare hurley carriers roaring at Flynn, don't want to see anything like that again from my county. Galway's game v Tipp will be interesting, if they win, it would be some start for them with Canning, Cooney, Burke, Moore, etc out.

It'll be a big test for Galway as Tipp really need to put in a good performance in front of their home crowd given the result against Dublin. There seems to always be a small benefit in having Canning not playing, in that Galway seem to play more 'as a team'.

Hurling man

Fireball07 wrote: »

With only 5 games in each division, every single point is important.

One of Kilkenny or Dublin could basically stave off relegation after only two games, which would give them room for a bit of experimentation then. Both had great starts considering... KK are home, but Dublin looked very sharp against Tipp. I think Dublin might get a win here, although write KK off at your peril, as they say.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, if one of Cork and Clare lose, they could be in big trouble. The Cork team looks stronger with Walsh back at midfield, McLoughlin at half-back; with Cronin & O'Sullivan both dropped up front. Cork at home again, and desperately need to make amends for an awful display against a weakened KK side. Clare haven't named their team yet, but will be disappointed not to have beaten Galway; Tony Kelly & David McInerney both missed UL's game through injury but you'd feel that if the likes of Conor McGrath start, Cork can be got at. Cork beat Clare in the Championship last year though and at home, pretty much have to win, or they'll be in a relegation play-off.

Tipp host Galway too, Tipp haven't named their team yet but were way off the pace against Dublin despite a strong team. Galway are missing a lot of players but have a big, strong, physical team; well suited to this time of year. I would have question marks over some of them and I expect Tipp to bounce back at home tbh.




In 1B, Limerick's team looks stronger with the return of Ryan and Dowling; along with both Morrisseys starting. Away to Antrim is a tough ask but I think we can get the win and hopefully target goals.

Waterford-Laois will be hugely interesting... I reckon Laois will be gutted not to have got something against Offaly, Waterford will be disappointed not have beaten Limerick. I was impressed with Waterford against Limerick, but this is the kind of game where they have to lay down a marker. Laois are a good side, but at home, Waterford have to win if they want to go up... and they probably need to get a decent-ish margin too... Offaly got 4 points, Waterford would nearly want 7 or 8 at least. Anything more would give them a huge, huge advantage.

Offaly did brilliantly to beat Laois, Wexford scraped past Antrim. Are Offaly finally back on the right track? If they got anything against Wexford, it would be a bit of a shock, and a huge blow to Wexford's chances. But a strong league campaign would be great for Offaly and great for hurling in general to have another strong team; Wexford showed what they could do last year, dumping out Clare & Waterford, and have had good U-21 teams; I expect them to win tbh. Dooley scored 1-14 against Laois, he's a class act, but I suppose you can't rely too much on one player either.



I predict wins for Dublin, Cork, Tipp, Limerick, Waterford and Wexford.

As far as I know scoring difference doesn't count in 1 b if top two teams have equal number of points there is a playoff to see who goes up

Fireball07

Hurling man wrote: »

As far as I know scoring difference doesn't count in 1 b if top two teams have equal number of points there is a playoff to see who goes up

Are you sure? That wouldn't be too bad, but I was almost sure it was the opposite.

Hurling man

Fireball07 wrote: »

Are you sure? That wouldn't be too bad, but I was almost sure it was the opposite.

No I am certain there is a playoff if teams are level on points

zombieHanalei

If two teams are tied the result between the two teams played determines who finishes ahead. (100% certain on that; look at the 2013 1A table where Galway finished 3rd and Waterford 4th despite Galway having an inferior scoring difference, Galway won the tie between the two in the group stage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_National_Hurling_League )

If that game was drawn; then it goes to scoring difference.

Not 100% certain after that but I know there are a few more rules before a playoff is considered; a playoff is an absolute last resort as all 12 teams are scheduled to play the quarter finals and relegation playoffs the weekend after the final round of group games so extra playoffs would throw the schedule off.

Fireball07

Cork well on top against Clare in 1A at the break. Kelly made two good saves from Horgan aswell and Walsh messed up a great chance; although the goal they did get was top class from Luke O'Farrell, unreal finish.

Clare not winning much ball, and hitting a lot of aimless balls on top of extra Cork backs. And the full-back line getting destroyed by the Cork full-forward line. Morey might be better to deal with them with his pace now.

Work rate of the Cork forwards has been excellent though, they seem very fired up this week.


Waterford beating Laois too.

Fireball07

So in the end, Clare didn't claw it back, seemed to give up really and Cork pretty much annihilated them. Could have been more than the 10 that it was. Cork were very good to be fair, but Clare well well off the pace.


Slightly worrying but they do have a lot of players to come back and topped the league last year and that turned out to do them no good... they could still win the All-Ireland but they need to be learning from all this.

randd1

Fireball07 wrote: »

So in the end, Clare didn't claw it back, seemed to give up really and Cork pretty much annihilated them. Could have been more than the 10 that it was. Cork were very good to be fair, but Clare well well off the pace.


Slightly worrying but they do have a lot of players to come back and topped the league last year and that turned out to do them no good... they could still win the All-Ireland but they need to be learning from all this.

Limerick, Kilkenny and Galway have players to come back too, so its not Clare are missing any more than anybody else.

Also, its clear from last year and this year so far that Cork, Limerick, Tipp, Dublin, Galway and (especially) Kilkenny have better sets of backs than Clare, and by the looks of things, are physically much bigger all round.

I wouldn't bet money on it, but I'd nearly be sure that Clare at the moment are 2/3 years of development and 3/4 top defenders off of winning the AI. Truth be told, I reckon Waterford and Wexford, if in form, could do number on Clare this year.

And I reckon a lot of it is down to Davy Fitz. Clare look like a side playing under restraint and in fear. Tonight was a good example, Clare were 20 minutes in, the better side, hurling well.

Fitz decides to withdraw a forward from a forward unit getting scores and causing problems, thus handing Cork a the advantage of an extra man in defense, which they used to dominate completely the Clare forwards, and in turn deliver a constant stream of well placed balls to a forward unit that exposed what is an average at best Clare defense who's first instinct is too foul. Cork won by 10, goal chances taken it could have been double that.

Clare won't win the AI unless they have better, stronger defenders and unless the management trust them to beat the opposition man to man.

Fireball07

randd1 wrote: »

Limerick, Kilkenny and Galway have players to come back too, so its not Clare are missing any more than anybody else.

Also, its clear from last year and this year so far that Cork, Limerick, Tipp, Dublin, Galway and (especially) Kilkenny have better sets of backs than Clare, and by the looks of things, are physically much bigger all round.

I wouldn't bet money on it, but I'd nearly be sure that Clare at the moment are 2/3 years of development and 3/4 top defenders off of winning the AI. Truth be told, I reckon Waterford and Wexford, if in form, could do number on Clare this year.

And I reckon a lot of it is down to Davy Fitz. Clare look like a side playing under restraint and in fear. Tonight was a good example, Clare were 20 minutes in, the better side, hurling well.

Fitz decides to withdraw a forward from a forward unit getting scores and causing problems, thus handing Cork a the advantage of an extra man in defense, which they used to dominate completely the Clare forwards, and in turn deliver a constant stream of well placed balls to a forward unit that exposed what is an average at best Clare defense who's first instinct is too foul. Cork won by 10, goal chances taken it could have been double that.

Clare won't win the AI unless they have better, stronger defenders and unless the management trust them to beat the opposition man to man.

Thing is they have already won an All-Ireland with the same defenders, and they weren't particularly good at defending then either. Now admittedly, they probably didn't come up against teams that could test them properly but you can only beat what's put in front of you. Limerick lacked the variation to their game and couldn't break through the double centre-back trick in the semi-final, while they were simply able to out-score Cork when it came to a shoot-out in the final (after a replay obviously).


I can see why they might pull a man back, they do have a weak core to their defence even with Ryan & Dillon there; teams find it too easy to walk through. Is this a midfield issue maybe? Maybe they need more protection there... both corner-backs were poor tonight though. But if you do pull a man back, you also create space inside... but obviously you need to have much better accuracy and give quick ball to the inside men which didn't happen tonight.

I rate Dillon, McInerney and Pat O'Connor quite highly. Flanagan is a talented youngster who doesn't seem to be used much, DOD is a good player although was poor tonight, Morey has talent but it's hard to know about his actual defensive capabilities, Bugler & Ryan are good and strong in the air but maybe can be got at when you run at them...


But I wouldn't be so sure about all those others having better sets of backs in terms of individual players. Limerick have a weakness in their half-back line, Cork still haven't settled firmly on a full-back, and KK will probably be fine but have just lost Delaney & Hogan, which must be some sort of blow. If the Clare backs could work better as a unit and stop fouling all the time, it would do wonders for the team as a whole.

LuckyGent88

Highly entertaining game coming from Nolan park. Pretty high intensity for this time of year.
Pity about the red card for Farrell. Might ruin the game and I didn't think there was much in it at all.

dastardly00

Anybody know what the red card for Farrell was for? I can't figure it out

Mountainlad

dastardly00 wrote: »

Anybody know what the red card for Farrell was for? I can't figure it out

Colm Lyons has two soft penalties and soft red card awarded to his portfolio. Making waves on the inter county scene, so he is.

Goat the dote

We're actually stunned here none of us can find what the red was for!!
Where's wally is easier to find

letowski

Never a red card in a million years. When Farrell held up his hurl, I think Lyons hallucinated that he went and hit someone, which he clearly didnt.