Woman asked to move from pre-booked seat calls Gardai

foggy_lad

joeguevara wrote: »

As already stated the above can't happen...ye are arguing over an impossibility

It often happens that the reservations don't light up on trains until after the journey has started and recently(in the last year) the reserved from XXXX station doesn't show at all but the reservation doesn't show until the train has pulled into XXXX station so it is very likely that there will be an innocent passenger sitting in a seat they saw and believed to be free because of the corporate incompetence and failures of Irish Rail, generally staff are not to blame here as the staff in Waterford often manually reserve seats when the system fails but the management refuse to acknowledge any issues or problems with the reservations system so refuse to do anything as making any attempt to fix it would be to acknowledge it is broken!

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

The problem is their systems cant do reservations from the booking office or vending machines like you describe, they cant allocate seats right up to train time because the only way they have of transferring the reservation to the train sets seems to be backward or at least very unreliable and takes a few hours. online booking closes a few hours before the train departure and if you book late you are advised that your seat might not be reserved afaik.

It closes 90 minutes before the departure time not a few hours foggy

Wichita Lineman

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, yes, absolutely. In that case it was not her seat.
What i took issue with was:



You stated that if you sat down and the light would go on after you sat down, your reply would be "fuggof, not moving". That is not showing equal courtesy.
If you can't afford to prebook, then you are not entitled over someone who did. You are saying because you travel every day, it entitles you to elevated privileges over people who travel less frequently.
If IR doesn't supply enough seats, that is bad. But it's not an excuse to sit in a seat that someone has reserved and tell them to get lost.
Or buy a car, I have one and it very rarely has happens that someone has taken my seat and isn't moving. Not even Foggy would do that. And if it did, I would certainly call the Gards.

Jeez, I thought we had some clarity but obviously not. You keep putting 'fuggof, not moving' in quotes as if I said it, your words not mine. I never said I wanted elevated privileges - it's the people who pre book who seem to think it buys them elevated privileges when all it buys them is the right to a seat. They still have to be civil like the rest of us. It's up to IR to ensure there is a seat for them or they get their money back.

I repeat again, I've never sat in a reserved seat so I've never refused to move.

Oh and btw I already have a car thanks. Not an option to drive and park with the distance / costs involved.

TheChizler

MOH wrote: »

There's two parts to reserving something. There's allocating it to a specific individual, and removing it or in some way marking it as no longer available for general use. If the second part isn't done, then it's not reserved.

TheChizler wrote: »

Says who? Bear in mind the only definitions IR have to abide by are in their own terms and conditions and relevant bye-laws.

MOH wrote: »

Says English? Though IE are quite good at redefining language to suit their own meaning, e.g. punctuality

Reservation: "an arrangement to have something (such as a room, table, or seat) held for your use at a later time"

You reserve a seat, you've got a commitment from IE that seat will be set aside for your use. If they make no effort to do that, they've failed to honour your reservation, your problem is with them. You can go up to the person sitting in that seat and ask them to honour a broken promise made to you by someone else which is nothing to do with them, and they may choose to do so, but it's up to them. You don't get a seat, you're entitled to a refund. They don't get a seat, they're entitled to nothing.

I specifically mentioned that IR only have to abide by definitions that are relevant (legally speaking) in order to avoid an irrelevant Mirriam-Webster dictionary definition.

However even in the definition you provided there's no mention of the second point that you claim is necessary to reserve something; the need for "removing it or in some way marking it as no longer available for general use". If we go by the dictionary definition you provided then IR are fully in compliance, as they have arranged with the customer that their seat will be held for their use at a later time. Obviously IR can't post guards at every seat physically stopping people from sitting in reserved seats, so they have to rely on people looking at the displays when they're working, or moving on production of proof of reservation.

monument

foggy_lad wrote: »

Ah Germany! Now there's a country worth living in with its racists Nazis, facists, bigot,s high crime rates, immigrant problems and of course the lovely way the SS make you carry your ID papers with you everywhere and arrest you if you don't! Where the sound of children playing on a Sunday morning can have your neighbours complaining to you, where the same efficiency that bred and created the holocaust is still beavering away till some new monster decides its his/her time to shine!

The Germans have a fantastic rail system! If you sit in someone else's seat there you might end up arrested. They don't really like the middle ground or the thought of any kind of compromise and there is nothing wrong with that if you are a German living in Germany but maybe that is the future for us all?

Go down this road again and you will get a ban for at least a few weeks.

You know the rules all to well.

-- moderator

dr.fuzzenstein

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

Jeez, I thought we had some clarity but obviously not. You keep putting 'fuggof, not moving' in quotes as if I said it, your words not mine. I never said I wanted elevated privileges - it's the people who pre book who seem to think it buys them elevated privileges when all it buys them is the right to a seat. They still have to be civil like the rest of us. It's up to IR to ensure there is a seat for them or they get their money back.

I repeat again, I've never sat in a reserved seat so I've never refused to move.

Oh and btw I already have a car thanks. Not an option to drive and park with the distance / costs involved.

OK, I get that. I was querying this bit:

If it came up after I have sat down then I am sorry but I am not moving and it's up to IR to provide enough seats to safely cater for all long suffering high paying commuters

You haven't refused to move yet, but kind of inferred that if you did sit in a seat that afterwards came up as reserved, you wouldn't move if someone came up with a reservation. It just hasn't happened yet.

Agent J

Foggy,

The wrongness of your position has been pointed out by many on this thread with evidence to back it up. Irish rail have basically just shown you the various terms we have been showing you for most of the thread.

Truth is you were wrong about reservations being ruled invalid the system goes funky. You are wrong about a ticket not being a valid reservation. Common sense *should* have told you that.

Now you are desperately trying to cling to one last scenario.
You are trying to badger Irish rail to saying something, anything you can misinterpret to suit your misguided view so you can try and come out of this with some sort of victory in your view.

Wichita Lineman

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

OK, I get that. I was querying this bit:



You haven't refused to move yet, but kind of inferred that if you did sit in a seat that afterwards came up as reserved, you wouldn't move if someone came up with a reservation. It just hasn't happened yet.

okie doke, we'll leave it there so

dr.fuzzenstein

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

okie doke, we'll leave it there so

Sure can. This thread is the gift that keeps on giving, just like amoebic dysentery. ;-)

MOH

foggy_lad wrote: »

Latest replies from IE and my email to them

If you're going to apply their rule 43.2 strictly, then logically nobody on the train can sit in any seat unless the reservation system is switched on. Since you're forbidden to sit in a seat that's booked by another passenger, but you're no way of knowing what seats those are.

TheChizler wrote: »

However even in the definition you provided there's no mention of the second point that you claim is necessary to reserve something; the need for "removing it or in some way marking it as no longer available for general use". If we go by the dictionary definition you provided then IR are fully in compliance, as they have arranged with the customer that their seat will be held for their use at a later time. Obviously IR can't post guards at every seat physically stopping people from sitting in reserved seats, so they have to rely on people looking at the displays when they're working, or moving on production of proof of reservation.

Well done, you google my definition. If you don't like it, pick another one. I'm not sure I see a signficant difference between "removing it or in some way marking it as no longer available for general use" and "held for their use at a later time".

I'm only getting into definitions to point out the difference between making a reservation and the reservation being honoured (i.e. the seat actually being reserved).

No one's asking them to post guards, but if they don't provide some indication that the seat has been reserved, then obviously they haven't in any way held it for a specific person's use. Therefore they haven't honoured the reservation, and the ticket holder is entitled to a refund if they can't get a seat., as per the passenger's charter.


What's to stop someone faking a reservation notice?

laoisfan

joeguevara wrote: »

As already stated the above can't happen...ye are arguing over an impossibility

Oh yes it can and it does...on a regular basis. I'm talking from experience here too (long term commute, 13yrs+).

dr.fuzzenstein

MOH wrote: »

What's to stop someone faking a reservation notice?

I think that's going a tad far...
So we need a cast-iron reservation system with a right to a reserved seat that has been legally tested to the highest court in the land, a state-of-the-art display system that will display the name and picture of the person holding the seat, frequent announcements by staff as well as automated not to sit in reserved seat and enforcement staff.
Now we find out we will also have to have fake-proof tickets with holograms, watermarks and embedded chips that are impossible to forge.
This whole reserving a seat malarkey is quite complicated, isn't it? It's a wonder it works anywhere else on the planet...:p

Grolschevik

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I think that's going a tad far...
So we need a cast-iron reservation system with a right to a reserved seat that has been legally tested to the highest court in the land, a state-of-the-art display system that will display the name and picture of the person holding the seat, frequent announcements by staff as well as automated not to sit in reserved seat and enforcement staff.
Now we find out we will also have to have fake-proof tickets with holograms, watermarks and embedded chips that are impossible to forge.
This whole reserving a seat malarkey is quite complicated, isn't it? It's a wonder it works anywhere else on the planet...:p

Don't forget the monkey butlers!

Agent J

MOH wrote: »

If you're going to apply their rule 43.2 strictly, then logically nobody on the train can sit in any seat unless the reservation system is switched on. Since you're forbidden to sit in a seat that's booked by another passenger, but you're no way of knowing what seats those are.

Wrong. Some one shows you their ticket with a seat number and now you know. I mean you *could* stand in the carriage because you are afraid of breaking the rules... Or you could act like a rational person and take a seat and IF someone can show you a ticket with that seat number.. then you move.
Simples.

MOH wrote: »

No one's asking them to post guards, but if they don't provide some indication that the seat has been reserved, then obviously they haven't in any way held it for a specific person's use. Therefore they haven't honoured the reservation, and the ticket holder is entitled to a refund if they can't get a seat., as per the passenger's charter.

Wrong again. You might actually read the Irish rules which have been quoted ad nauseam at this point. Why do you actually try and use some Irish rail rules and then ignore the others? The reservation ALWAYS exists and a ticket is a VALID reservation. If someone is sitting in a reserved seat then they are in breach of the rule you quoted above...

MOH wrote: »

What's to stop someone faking a reservation notice?

Dammit! You've hit upon my business idea. Selling counterfeit reservations on Irish rail trains...

MOH

Agent J wrote: »

Wrong. Some one shows you their ticket with a seat number and now you know. I mean you *could* stand in the carriage because you are afraid of breaking the rules... Or you could act like a rational person and take a seat and IF someone can show you a ticket with that seat number.. then you move.

Or you could act like a rational peson and accept that if you reserved a seat with IE and someone is sitting there, but the seat clearly hasn't been reserved, then they've every right to be sitting there and you should take it up with IE.

Wrong again. You might actually read the Irish rules which have been quoted ad nauseam at this point. Why do you actually try and use some Irish rail rules and then ignore the others? The reservation ALWAYS exists and a ticket is a VALID reservation. If someone is sitting in a reserved seat then they are in breach of the rule you quoted above...

So why is there a clause in the conditions of carriage promising a refund if IE fail to honour a seat reservation? Which I've claimed in the past? By your logic that's impossible. The reason I use some rules and ignore others is because I have actually read them all, and there's frequently contradictions between the IE Passenger Charter, Conditions of Carriage, and the actual bye-laws. Many of them are nonsensical, e.g. 43.5:
"Reserved seats must be claimed prior to the advertised departure time of the train".
So if the train is late at an intermediate station, all resevations from there are void.

Dammit! You've hit upon my business idea. Selling counterfeit reservations on Irish rail trains...

Well, people were arguing earlier that paper reservation notices are useless because people would just rip them down regularly. If that's a valid argument, then so is forging reservations :rolleyes:

Calina

MOH wrote: »

Or you could act like a rational peson and accept that if you reserved a seat with IE and someone is sitting there, but the seat clearly hasn't been reserved, then they've every right to be sitting there and you should take it up with IE.

The seat is reserved. The issue is that the reservation signs have not been put up. The reservation exists from the moment the booking goes through online.

As far as I can see, the problem is you and a few more with a similar view do not wish to accept this.

The_Captain

Typical Ireland to have an absolute muck up of a simple thing that works perfectly in other countries.

MOH

Calina wrote: »

The seat is reserved. The issue is that the reservation signs have not been put up. The reservation exists from the moment the booking goes through online.

As far as I can see, the problem is you and a few more with a similar view do not wish to accept this.

Yes, the reservation exists, and the ticket holder has a commitment from IE that the seat will be reserved.
But the seat isn't actually 'reserved' until the signs are put up. It should be, the ticket holder has a promise that it will be, but it isn't.
And then a completely disinterested third party who's turned up early, and sat in a clearly unreserved seat, is expected to get involved in the transaction and honour the commitment IE made, and stand for the journey. Which is clearly ridiculous.

It all boils down to the ongoing incompetence of Irish public transport.

There's at least 3 identical threads on boards going back the last 3 years. It's never going to be resolved until IE actually start honouring the promises they make to their customers, which will be the same year the winter olympics take place in hell.

There's no point going round in circles again, everyone's got their own view. Some people are going to try to kick the person in 'their' seat out, regardless of the cicumstances, some are going to accept the fault lies with IE and take it up with them. Each to their own.

Calina

MOH wrote: »

Yes, the reservation exists, and the ticket holder has a commitment from IE that the seat will be reserved.
But the seat isn't actually 'reserved' until the signs are put up. It should be, the ticket holder has a promise that it will be, but it isn't.
And then a completely disinterested third party who's turned up early, and sat in a clearly unreserved seat, is expected to get involved in the transaction and honour the commitment IE made, and stand for the journey. Which is clearly ridiculous.

It all boils down to the ongoing incompetence of Irish public transport.

There's at least 3 identical threads on boards going back the last 3 years. It's never going to be resolved until IE actually start honouring the promises they make to their customers, which will be the same year the winter olympics take place in hell.

There's no point going round in circles again, everyone's got their own view. Some people are going to try to kick the person in 'their' seat out, regardless of the cicumstances, some are going to accept the fault lies with IE and take it up with them. Each to their own.

You cannot honestly say a reservation for a seat exists and the seat is not reserved at the same time.

So here's the point. I personally vacate a seat if someone comes to me armed with a ticket and says "I booked this seat".

The rest of you are looking for excuses not to do this and twisting yourserlf in wires trying to prove a reservation which exists simultaneously doesn't exist. Irish Rail must be the only rail system in the world whose reservations are subject to Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle because people don't want to vacate seats for which other people have tickets.

irishthump

MOH wrote: »

Yes, the reservation exists, and the ticket holder has a commitment from IE that the seat will be reserved.
But the seat isn't actually 'reserved' until the signs are put up. It should be, the ticket holder has a promise that it will be, but it isn't.
And then a completely disinterested third party who's turned up early, and sat in a clearly unreserved seat, is expected to get involved in the transaction and honour the commitment IE made, and stand for the journey. Which is clearly ridiculous.

It all boils down to the ongoing incompetence of Irish public transport.

There's at least 3 identical threads on boards going back the last 3 years. It's never going to be resolved until IE actually start honouring the promises they make to their customers, which will be the same year the winter olympics take place in hell.

There's no point going round in circles again, everyone's got their own view. Some people are going to try to kick the person in 'their' seat out, regardless of the cicumstances, some are going to accept the fault lies with IE and take it up with them. Each to their own.

I hope you reserved a seat at the next Annual Hair-Splitter's Convention. Or maybe you'll just turn up and take someone else's?

MOH

irishthump wrote: »

I hope you reserved a seat at the next Annual Hair-Splitter's Convention. Or maybe you'll just turn up and take someone else's?

I'd probably just turn up early and sit in a clearly unreserved one, thanks.

TheChizler

MOH wrote: »

I'd probably just turn up early and sit in a clearly unreserved unmarked one, thanks.

For the sake of accuracy.

MOH

Calina wrote: »

You cannot honestly say a reservation for a seat exists and the seat is not reserved at the same time.

I can if I consider a reservation to be a promise to the customer to reserve the seat, and the seat being reserved as meaning that it's actually been been reserved.

I could reserve a hotel room and turn up to find the hotel full. I'd still have a reservation. I could book a specific area in a pub and turn up to find other people sitting there with no reserved sign on the table. I'd still have a reservation. I could reserve a particular favourite table in a restaurant and turn up to find other people eating there. I'd still have a reservation. I could reserve an item in Argos and turn up to find they'd sold them all. I'd still have a reservation.
I'm not sure where the complication is?

I wouldn't go banging on the door of the room, or kicking people out of their seats, or grabbing people's plates off them , or demanding the person leaving Argos hand me their item. In every case my issue would be with a business which had failed to honour the reservation, and I'd take it up with them. But maybe I'm just too reasonable.

So here's the point. I personally vacate a seat if someone comes to me armed with a ticket and says "I booked this seat".

Good for you. I possibly would too, depending on the circumstances. On the other hand, if I've booked a seat and someone else is sitting in it, and it's clearly not been reserved, I personally am unlikely to kick them out of it unless I really need it that day, I'll take the free journey instead so at least irish Rail have to pay for their screw up.

JayRoc

MOH wrote: »

I possibly would too, depending on the circumstances. On the other hand, if I've booked a seat and someone else is sitting in it, and it's clearly not been reserved, I personally am unlikely to kick them out of it

I guess that's the interesting thing about boards. It never would have occurred to me that a reasonable person would do anything but the above.

But here I see what I would consider common sense is apparently a minority view.

Pinch Flat

I'm in the 16.25 from waterford to Limerick junction, picking up the train from cork to Dublin. I have 2 seats booked o the Dublin train - wish me well boardies!

foggy_lad

On the Cork to Dublin train, only seat was a reserved one for a P.Flat but hey that sounds like a makey uppy name so I sat here:D:P

Agent J

MOH wrote: »

So why is there a clause in the conditions of carriage promising a refund if IE fail to honour a seat reservation? Which I've claimed in the past? By your logic that's impossible.

Because the train itself is cancelled? Or there is a different number of carriages than have been booked?

MOH wrote: »

The reason I use some rules and ignore others is because I have actually read them all,

You ignore the ones which don't support your conclusion which undermines your argument entirely.

MOH wrote: »

and there's frequently contradictions between the IE Passenger Charter, Conditions of Carriage, and the actual bye-laws. Many of them are nonsensical, e.g. 43.5:
"Reserved seats must be claimed prior to the advertised departure time of the train".
So if the train is late at an intermediate station, all resevations from there are void.

Nonsensical because you have chosen to interpret it that way and then incorrectly extrapolate to infer that all reservations are cancelled.
I refer you to Foggy lads email from Irish rail where it says "Under no circumstances are reservations cancelled"

However if you want to hair split.

Irish rail can simply say a late train has a new departure time as advertised at the relevant station.

Or if you really want to hair split then where is the definition of claim in the terms and conditions? I'm at the station with my valid reservation ticket to claim my seat. It's good enough at the terminus stations should be good enough for the other ones.

But that is hair splitting for no good reason when common sense *should* take precedent

MOH

Agent J wrote: »

Because the train itself is cancelled? Or there is a different number of carriages than have been booked?

You ignore the ones which don't support your conclusion which undermines your argument entirely.

Well they were happy enough to refund me in circumstances where the train was neither cancelled nor had an abnormal number of carriages, they just hadn't bothered reserving the seats.
Seems to support my argument just fine.

Nonsensical because you have chosen to interpret it that way and then incorrectly extrapolate to infer that all reservations are cancelled.

It's not that open to interpretation, it's pretty clear.

I refer you to Foggy lads email from Irish rail where it says "Under no circumstances are reservations cancelled"

So now passengers are supposed to read the Conditions of Carriage, the bye-laws, the passenger charter *and* emails sent to random individuals, all of which apparently comprise IE's terms and conditions? Never mind the fact that IE staff have been known to not understand their own rules.
It's an email. It doesn't form any part of the conditions involving the purchase of a ticket. Now you're just being silly

However if you want to hair split.

Not particularly, but you seem to enjoy it

Irish rail can simply say a late train has a new departure time as advertised at the relevant station.

Or if you really want to hair split then where is the definition of claim in the terms and conditions? I'm at the station with my valid reservation ticket to claim my seat. It's good enough at the terminus stations should be good enough for the other ones.

No it's not, it's a different condition. The very next one. Which says passengers in a terminal station must be "available for boarding" at least twenty minutes before the advertised departure of the train.
There's absolutely no reason they couldn't have worded 43.5 in a similar way, to say passengers at intermediate station must be available for boarding, but they didn't. Not my fault they can't come hope with a coherent set of non-contradictory rules, and then stick to them themselves.

I really have no interest in getting into all this since it's getting way off topic, but you can't really accuse me of ignoring the rules that don't support my position and do exactly the same thing yourself.

But that is hair splitting for no good reason when common sense *should* take precedent

It should, it really should *sigh*


Actually, I've just noticed 43.3:

IE conditions of travel wrote:

"Reserved seat tickets are issued subject to the conditions and regulations
applicable to the passenger ticket to which the reserved seat ticket relates
and to the special conditions, that Iarnród Éireann is not deemed to undertake
to provide particular seats in the appropriate class, or any seats, and failure to
do so will impose no liability upon Iarnród Éireann other than to refund the
reservation fee paid"

So having a reserved seat ticket doesn't actually guarantee you a seat.

And your only compensation is the refund of your reservation fee, which is free if you're booking online. Yet contradicts the passenger charter which promises a refund of the single journey.


It's Iarnrod Eireann. Common sense doesn't apply.

Pinch Flat

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I'm in the 16.25 from waterford to Limerick junction, picking up the train from cork to Dublin. I have 2 seats booked o the Dublin train - wish me well boardies!

So there you have it. 2 journeys - Dublin to waterford and Limerick juncrion to Dublin. Had to move people from my prebooked seats on both occassions - no big deal on either. Would have been a nightmare on the return journey as it would have meant me and my 8 year old son split up. Not good. And I paid €62 for the journey .

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

On the Cork to Dublin train, only seat was a reserved one for a P.Flat but hey that sounds like a makey uppy name so I sat here:D:P

Looks like i misread the post Sorry Foggy .