Woman asked to move from pre-booked seat calls Gardai

foggy_lad

With all the absolutely brilliant advances in train travel brought about by some government spending and higher expectations from passengers(I can remember trains to mullingar whitravellers insc seats same as we had in school) Irish rail have gone backwards as far as small details like reservations are concerned. Years ago the system worked flawlessly but now it is hit and miss bit mostly just a mess.

not addressing this issue will result in the loss of even more of their bread and butter season ticket holders and further drops in subvention as passenger numbers fall.

having to pay €6 per journey for a reservation as a person who already pays thousands a year is a hard pill for most monthly weekly and yearly ticket holders while the occasional travellers who buy online pay much less for their tickets and get free seat reservations

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

OK then, if you were made boss of IE tomorrow would you issue instructions that all rolling stock in future is to be built to the old Cravens, Mk2 and Mk3 specs?

in terms of seating comfort, flexibility, and facilities, yes. i'd also make sure there are enough carriges for capacity boosts where needed when needed without having to rob peter to pay paul, and enough for future growth

end of the road

Calina wrote: »

I have been travelling by train on intercity services in this country for more than 30 years.

During that time, and especially, 10 years ago, there were carriages which had all tables, and carriages which had flip down table tops. There was not a point in which every single seat on a train was at a large table.

I stood from Cork to Dublin on many, many occasions. I spent 3 hours one night in a train on the track outside Kildare.

In no way would I swap the past for the present.

There are tables on the current train sets. Is your issue the fact that they are a bit too small to lay out a full broadsheet newspaper?

on my line we had access to big tables at every seat. people still have to stand, just ask those on the dart where short formed trains seem to be the norm, or the waterford/sligo lines where they might be lucky if they get enough carriges. being stuck on the tracks outside kildare still happens from time to time

Wang King

italodisco wrote: »

Hard man.

Lol 😂 I

Hey, if I was a hard man I'd use iarranrod eireanns own bogroll

MOH

italodisco wrote: »

All the keyboard hard lads going on about how they wouldn't move etc etc

Take the right blokes seat and you would be physically removed from it.

Folks pay no attention, these keyboard warriors are just that.

In real life they wouldn't knock the breeze out of the wind.

On here though, here they can be hard as nails lol.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

jaymcg91 wrote: »

I literally agree with this 1000% .

So now it's OK to physically assault other passengers if IE haven't reserved your seat? Wow. :eek:

Spanish Eyes

I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that IR haven't dropped into this thread to give a definitive answers. Sure they read it, but are probably having their tay at the moment.

I notice that queries re Dublin Bus on this Board (C+T),are answered by those who seem to work there, and no question is too much bother to answer, even when the poster is having a rant at DB.

So, IMV, Irish Rail does not give a damn about getting things right. Imagine having no IR presence on the train apart from the driver to adjudicate? That sends out all the wrong signals, because there is no one around to adjudicate such issues as in the OP.

If the reservation system doesn't work or is intermittent, they would KNOW this before the departure of a busy train, and would ensure someone in charge would walk through the carriages in the event of a bust up over reserved seats.

They basically just don't care it seems. Get the money in, book online, but it ain't our problem if YOU have a problem.

Only in Ireland.

And also, for many people, if someone is sitting in their reserved seat, they may be shy, or unwilling to ask for the seat. Lots of people are like that. It can be very embarrassing chasing your rights with a carriage full of passengers looking on, maybe taking photos on their phone of the confrontation, and tweeting like there was no tomorrow.

That should NOT be the case ever. If there is a problem regarding reserved seats, and someone absolutely refuses to move for a person with a reservation, it should be up to IR to solve it, not the passenger, who bought and reserved the seats in good faith, and on the promise of being able to sit in that particular seat.

It's a total shambles really. But I suppose when it works, it's not too bad.

Irish Rail PR where are you???

Hilly Bill

MOH wrote: »

No, next time I remember the inconvenience and I choose a better mode of transport.



It might be allocated to them - if it hasn't been clearly set aside for them then I wouldn't define it as reserved.



If I get on a train where I've reserved a seat and IE haven't bothered to reserve it, and there's no free seats left, I'm not going to kick somebody out and make them stand when they've done nothing wrong other than sit in a freely available seat. I'd considering doing so petty and selfish.

I've stood on packed trains before when I had a reservation and I couldn't even find the seat, because again, seat reservations not implemented.

Way I see it, neither passenger has done anything wrong, someone's going to have to stand, and if it's me then I can claim a refund (laughably, in travel tokens). At least that way IE lose out in some small way for their incompetence.

Well if you don't bother asking for a seat then you deserve to stand.

Agent J

Are people *still* trying to argue that a ticket reservation isn't a reservation?

Jawgap

Agent J wrote: »

Are people *still* trying to argue that a ticket reservation isn't a reservation?

It's ok - I've heard that Irish Rail are to employ tipstaffs to conduct passengers to their seats. It seems to be the only way certain people will accept reservations are in fact reservations

CaliforniaDream

end of the road wrote: »

were not talking about marked seats. with the piece of paper it would be stuck to the window.

end of the road wrote: »

back in the old days when the driver could drive the train without being expected to deal with passenger problems the piece of paper used to mark a reserved seat was stuck on with a special solution which only the ticket inspector had the relevant equipment to remove

This isn't 'the old days' anymore.
Instead of taking the paper off a seat they took it off a window so. Now that I've clarified where the paper was correctly, what would you do?

Also, I notice both you and Foggy_Lad didn't answer any of my questions. Was it because you know any answer would be the opposite of what you're arguing here?

I'd love to see you both arguing something in court. Your interpretations of legal are amusing.

anto3473

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Or just sit on top of them. I'll be travelling to Waterford on Sunday with my son - we always reserve seat with a table so he can colour, keep his books, bits and bobs.

Anyone in my seat who refuses to move is going to have all 6'2"/15 stone of me sitting right in top of them.

In saying that there are some ignoramuses out there - as I said earlier my mum is a pensioner with lupus, she's not great in her feet. She reserved a seat from Dublin a while back and some bloke flatly refused to move on a packed train - got rail staff involved but still no luck. She had to stand on a packed train for about half of a near 3 hour journey. So some people's lack of manners and respect for others can come as a shock

As a matter of interest, would posters who refuse to move change their attitude if the person was disabled (and they were in a reserved disabled space), old or perhaps a mother with an infant? Or does ignorance go across all walks of life

For me I would judge it in each case, If I thought someone was less well able stand than me standing ie, crutches, people with injuries/disabilities, elderly. infirm or sick or pregnant/child in arms I would never ask them in the first place. It would make someone an absolute see you next Tuesday to do that imho.

Families it would depend on the age of the kids and the attitude of the parents, if the parents. If it were drunk obnoxious parents with out of control 12-18 year old kids acting the eejit all the way to Tralee (which unfortunately is common enough on the later weekend trains) I'd ask them to jog on. If it was a family with young kids I'd sit on my case and let them have my seat.

I'd approach each situation with some degree of thinking first.

Once a couple actually offered to take turns using one of the seats, the husband took the seat for an hour, the wife took the seat for an hour and i took the seat for an hour then the husband again for the last hour which I thought was pretty reasonable thing to do.

By the way my case is totally banjaxed thanks to Irish rail not having enough seats on my 200+ journeys in the last 6 or 7 years. Are you listening Irish Rail?

Hilly Bill

end of the road wrote: »

i never said it was magic, i said it was stuck on so it couldn't be removed by any old person

All you need is fingers to remove them.

end of the road

Hilly Bill wrote: »

All you need is fingers to remove them.

no

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

With all the absolutely brilliant advances in train travel brought about by some government spending and higher expectations from passengers(I can remember trains to mullingar whitravellers insc seats same as we had in school) Irish rail have gone backwards as far as small details like reservations are concerned. Years ago the system worked flawlessly but now it is hit and miss bit mostly just a mess.

not addressing this issue will result in the loss of even more of their bread and butter season ticket holders and further drops in subvention as passenger numbers fall.

having to pay €6 per journey for a reservation as a person who already pays thousands a year is a hard pill for most monthly weekly and yearly ticket holders while the occasional travellers who buy online pay much less for their tickets and get free seat reservations

The daily fare works out a lot cheaper than a walk up fare for a yearly ticket. All they have done is paid in advance at a cheaper rate for a journey between point to point. Where are you going with mostly a mess? how would you know what seats are supposed to be lit up or not? How many times have you reserved a seat and it not been shown?

Hilly Bill

end of the road wrote: »

no

No what?

dr.fuzzenstein

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No what?

He doesn't know.
All the people who say "Oh look at me, I'm such a hard nut, I'm not getting up for children and people in wheelchairs", you're a pussy and you would be dust in .01 seconds if someone even remotely looked like giving you grief. You can be a big man on the internet and to children and the infirm, but I doubt you have the balls to follow it up. You simply lack a basic set of manners, which your mammy obviously never taught you and one day someone will explain it to you in a manner which will literally get through your thick skull.
Big man on the internet indeed.

end of the road

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

He doesn't know.
All the people who say "Oh look at me, I'm such a hard nut, I'm not getting up for children and people in wheelchairs", you're a pussy and you would be dust in .01 seconds if someone even remotely looked like giving you grief. You can be a big man on the internet and to children and the infirm, but I doubt you have the balls to follow it up. You simply lack a basic set of manners, which your mammy obviously never taught you and one day someone will explain it to you in a manner which will literally get through your thick skull.
Big man on the internet indeed.

yeah. right so

anto3473

Hilly Bill wrote: »

All you need is fingers to remove them.

When they have to use paper reservation cards they are jammed into the headrests, they have a big red warning label stating that there is some huge fine and or 3 months jail time for interfering with iarannrod eireann notices. The staff also have a record of which seats have reservation cards.

If you are seen removing one of these the staff would probably take a very dim view of it. And you would be seen on cctv.

monument

I'm not inclined to lock this thread at this point because this is an issue that just keeps coming back. It's clearly a heated issue and people have strongly held views, but those are reasons for people to follow the rules, not for the thread to be locked.

Normal rules apply her regardless of how much people think other posters are in the wrong or how much you think the thread should be locked.

-- moderator

Agent J

anto3473 wrote: »

When they have to use paper reservation cards they are jammed into the headrests, they have a big red warning label stating that there is some huge fine and or 3 months jail time for interfering with iarannrod eireann notices. The staff also have a record of which seats have reservation cards.

If you are seen removing one of these the staff would probably take a very dim view of it. And you would be seen on cctv.

Uh huh. Given the lack of staff on trains in the first place, do you really think Irish rail are going to bother going back through CCTV?

Again I ask. Why are you(& others) trying to quote Irish rail bye laws while clearly ignoring others?

If only there was some other type of paper card which a traveling passenger had which was issued by Irish rail which could indicate if they had a reserved seat.....

Hilly Bill

anto3473 wrote: »

When they have to use paper reservation cards they are jammed into the headrests, they have a big red warning label stating that there is some huge fine and or 3 months jail time for interfering with iarannrod eireann notices. The staff also have a record of which seats have reservation cards.

If you are seen removing one of these the staff would probably take a very dim view of it. And you would be seen on cctv.

Another poster was suggesting that a special tool is needed to remove the labels off the windows, i said that all you need is fingers.

anto3473

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Another poster was suggesting that a special tool is needed to remove the labels off the windows, i said that all you need is fingers.

I've never seen them stick labels on windows, i would imagine it is messy and time consuming vs the paper ones they use on the seats.

anto3473

Agent J wrote: »

Uh huh. Given the lack of staff on trains in the first place, do you really think Irish rail are going to bother going back through CCTV?

Again I ask. Why are you(& others) trying to quote Irish rail bye laws while clearly ignoring others?

If only there was some other type of paper card which a traveling passenger had which was issued by Irish rail which could indicate if they had a reserved seat.....

The seat number is printed on the passengers ticket, and the staff would just look at their seating chart and know which seats should have reservation labels.

As for going through CCTV I doubt they'd bother but they technically could if they needed too.

Hilly Bill

anto3473 wrote: »

I've never seen them stick labels on windows, i would imagine it is messy and time consuming vs the paper ones they use on the seats.

They are only sticky on the sides and come off ok.

Agent J

anto3473 wrote: »

The seat number is printed on the passengers ticket, and the staff would just look at their seating chart and know which seats should have reservation labels.

As for going through CCTV I doubt they'd bother but they technically could if they needed too.

You are missing the point. If for some reason the reservation system on the train fails or screws up (for whatever reason). Other posters such as Foggy lad have stated they do not recognize a passengers reservations ticket as a valid reservation.

MOH

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Well if you don't bother asking for a seat then you deserve to stand.

And where exactly am I supposed to ask for a seat when the reservation system is off and there's no way of identifying even the carriage in which it's supposed to be?

Agent J wrote: »

Are people *still* trying to argue that a ticket reservation isn't a reservation?

If I reserve something, and no effort is made to made to set it aside for my specific use, and it's free for anyone else to take, then clearly it wasn't reserved.

Sure why bother investing a seat reservation system at all. Just print seat numbers on everyone's ticket and let the passengers argue over it themselves. Problem solved.

foggy_lad

I have received this following reply from Irish rail but unfortunately it does not answer the main and most important question which I had asked!

 Dear foggy_lad,
Thank you, for taking the time to contact us and for your feedback

There are problems with the Seat Reservation System, particularly on the InterCity Railcars (ICR) class trains and occasionally on Mk4, which lead to the SRS failing on occasion. When this occurs, staff in the originating station is required to place reserved notices on every seat which has been reserved, irrespective of where the passenger joins the train.

Currently, Iarnród Éireann / Irish Rail cannot guarantee that a staff member other than the driver will be on board any particular service, however, when a staff member is present they are required to ensure that the seating arrangements are in order, that passengers with reserved seating have obtained their seats and / or assist with any issues that might arise as a result of the SRS failing. Under no circumstance however, is a customer’s reserved seat made void.

I would like to thank you for taking the time to report this to us and would like to apologise on behalf of Iarnród Éireann for the upset and discomfort caused to you.
Kind Regards

I have sent a reply as king that my original question be answered.

Hi again,

Unfortunately the main question I had for Irish rail remains unanswered so I will ask it more directly.

If I sit on an unreserved unmarked seat on a train say on the Cork train or Galway train and another passenger comes to me saying that is my "reserved" seat, here is my ticket with the seat number printed on it am I obliged by any law or statute to vacate my seat which is not in any way marked reserved?

If I am obliged to move in such circumstances please let me know what part of statute obliges me to vacate an unreserved seat?

Kind Regards

Reg_hurley

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have received this following reply from Irish rail but unfortunately it does not answer the main and most important question which I had asked!
I have sent a reply as king that my original question be answered.

I haven't read all the thread but by "unreserved unmarked seat" do you mean an unmarked reserved seat?

dr.fuzzenstein

foggy_lad wrote: »

Hi again,

Unfortunately the main question I had for Irish rail remains unanswered so I will ask it more directly.

If I sit on an unreserved unmarked seat on a train say on the Cork train or Galway train and another passenger comes to me saying that is my "reserved" seat, here is my ticket with the seat number printed on it am I obliged by any law or statute to vacate my seat which is not in any way marked reserved?

If I am obliged to move in such circumstances please let me know what part of statute obliges me to vacate an unreserved seat?

Kind Regards

First of all, the other person has a valid ticket with a seat number on it, so I still argue yes.
But really you are missing the point. My main argument would be, would you ever get over yourself with that Freeman sh*t. Maybe you should take a solicitor with you when boarding a train if finding a seat is something fraught with legal pitfalls to you.
You are not obliged by law to hold the door open for someone, you can gladly slam it in their face and walk off. You also not obliged by law to help someone up who has fallen, help someone change a tire, look after your neighbour's cat, pick up a friend who is stranded, visit your elderly mother, be kind to people in any way or behave in any way that could be described as social. And I suspect you don't. For that we have an unwritten codex, if you will, a kind of gentleman's agreement where we do the above thing and that does include getting up if we accidentally sit on someone else's seat. This advise is, of course, absolutely meaningless to you, since you have no grasp of the concept. Really it is a choice, you can decide to abide by the above (it is not compulsory), or you can go through life arguing, having a lot of stress, legal expenses and wondering why everyone is so hostile towards you and why you don't have any friends. You seem to have come to the conclusion that it is everyone else's fault.
If you want to insist in sitting in a seat that someone has rightfully reserved, don't worry, we won't call the cops because we're not 8. The rest of us, we choose to be nice to each other. You either really have no concept of the above and cannot understand why anyone would disagree with you, or you have argued yourself into a logical corner and you will never admit this, so you will rather argue till the end of time than give in.
I wager a little of column A and a little of column B.

wolfmoon87

Dear foggy_lad,
Thank you, for taking the time to contact us and for your feedback

There are problems with the Seat Reservation System, particularly on the InterCity Railcars (ICR) class trains and occasionally on Mk4, which lead to the SRS failing on occasion. When this occurs, staff in the originating station is required to place reserved notices on every seat which has been reserved, irrespective of where the passenger joins the train.

Currently, Iarnród Éireann / Irish Rail cannot guarantee that a staff member other than the driver will be on board any particular service, however, when a staff member is present they are required to ensure that the seating arrangements are in order, that passengers with reserved seating have obtained their seats and / or assist with any issues that might arise as a result of the SRS failing. Under no circumstance however, is a customer’s reserved seat made void.

I would like to thank you for taking the time to report this to us and would like to apologise on behalf of Iarnród Éireann for the upset and discomfort caused to you.
Kind Regards

.