Woman asked to move from pre-booked seat calls Gardai

foggy_lad

Reg_hurley wrote: »

I haven't read all the thread but by "unreserved unmarked seat" do you mean an unmarked reserved seat?

I mean a seat which to me is unreserved when I board the train and sit on it.

foggy_lad

wolfmoon87 wrote: »

.

I believe that passage stating "under no circumstances is a customers reservation made void" refers directly to me asking if reservations were voided when the system regularly breaks down in my original email.

I have a question about seat reservations on board trains.

If I don't have a reservation and sit in a seat which is NOT marked as reserved in any way do I have to move if another passenger arrives later showing a reserved ticket for the seat I'm sitting in?

if so why should any passenger be turfed out of their legitimately obtained seat and embarrassed in front of a carriage full of people when they have done nothing wrong?

I would never sit in a clearly marked reserved seat but often the reservation system is faulty or just not turned on at all, what should passengers do in these circumstances?

I would imagine that where the reservation system on board is faulty and no manual reservations have been placed on seats then all reservations for that service would be voided? Is this what happens?

please reply at your earliest convenience to my email address

Kindest Regards,

as stated by Irish rail when staff put paper notices on seats after the system breaks there will be no voiding of reservations.

Hilly Bill

Is there a name with that e-mail Foggy?

Hilly Bill

MOH wrote: »

And where exactly am I supposed to ask for a seat when the reservation system is off and there's no way of identifying even the carriage in which it's supposed to be?



If I reserve something, and no effort is made to made to set it aside for my specific use, and it's free for anyone else to take, then clearly it wasn't reserved.

Sure why bother investing a seat reservation system at all. Just print seat numbers on everyone's ticket and let the passengers argue over it themselves. Problem solved.

The carriage A. B, C etc would be displayed.

You missed the point, its reserved from the moment you paid for it and get your conformation details with your seat number on it.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have received this following reply from Irish rail but unfortunately it does not answer the main and most important question which I had asked!
I have sent a reply as king that my original question be answered.

You got your answer when they said that the reservation is not void if its not displayed . The answer didnt go the way you wanted it to so you are now doing the same via email to Irish Rail that you are doing on here.
Seriously Foggy, you wouldnt move unless there is a law somewhere stating that you have to move?
Thats bad form to be honest Foggy and selfish.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You got your answer when they said that the reservation is not void if its not displayed . The answer didnt go the way you wanted it to so you are now doing the same via email to Irish Rail that you are doing on here.
Seriously Foggy, you wouldnt move unless there is a law somewhere stating that you have to move?
Thats bad form to be honest Foggy and selfish.

They have failed to state that a reservation exists at all if no reservations notices are placed on trains or if the system breaks down. they fudged the issue but was anything else expected?

and to answer an earlier question yes there is a name with the email but you hardly expect me to name individual staff on here?

TheChizler

foggy_lad wrote: »

I believe that passage stating "under no circumstances is a customers reservation made void" refers directly to me asking if reservations were voided when the system regularly breaks down in my original email.
as stated by Irish rail when staff put paper notices on seats after the system breaks there will be no voiding of reservations.

If they meant "in some circumstances a customer's reservation is not made void" then they would have said "in some circumstances a customer's reservation is not made void".

dr.fuzzenstein

foggy_lad wrote: »

They have failed to state that a reservation exists at all if no reservations notices are placed on trains or if the system breaks down. they fudged the issue but was anything else expected?

and to answer an earlier question yes there is a name with the email but you hardly expect me to name individual staff on here?

Once a reservation is made, it exists. No matter if it's displayed or not. You didn't get the answer you wanted, and now you are simply sticking your fingers in your ears going lalalalalaaaa! I can't hear you! As evident by your ignoring every argument going against you, which is all of them. Your argument is simply "fuggof, not moving"

Agent J

Foggy Lad. You are passing the point of credibility here.

Graham wrote: »

The specific part of the statutory instrument:

29. (1) No person shall occupy or use any compartment or seat in any vehicle on the railway upon which or in relation to which
notice has been fixed or given by the Board

that such compartment or seat is reserved, except the holder of a reservation ticket issued by the Board in respect of the holder's occupation or use of such compartment or seat.

A ticket showing a seat reservation is 'issued by the board', if that ticket is shown to the passenger occupying the reserved seat I would class that as notice given by the board. There is nothing in the statute that specifies how and/or when such notice is delivered.

And....

Agent J wrote: »

Even though Irish rail SAYS tickets are a valid reservation(As long as they have a valid travel ticket)

43.4 Reserved seat tickets are valid only on production of the passenger tickets covering the journey and must be shown to and given up as required to Iarnród Éireann’s employees or agents.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/conditionsoftravel1.pdf?v=ge3dnca

And finally as provided by your email.

Under no circumstance however, is a customer’s reserved seat made void.

So a reservation exists always as far as Irish rail is concerned no matter what happens on board the train. As per the by law in the first quote people should not occupy these seats and in the 2nd quote is where Irish rail clearly states a ticket reservation card is a valid reservation.

So if you are sitting there in a booked seat(Regardless of markings).Someone shows you their valid reservation ticket.Since the reservation cannot be voided it still exists... Then I am afraid you are in breach of the Bye law above.

You can try and keep grasping at straws as much as you like but you haven't a leg to stand(or sit) on here.

end of the road

Agent J wrote: »

Foggy Lad. You are passing the point of credibility here.



And....



And finally as provided by your email.



So a reservation exists always as far as Irish rail is concerned no matter what happens on board the train. As per the by law in the first quote people should not occupy these seats and in the 2nd quote is where Irish rail clearly states a ticket reservation card is a valid reservation.

So if you are sitting there in a booked seat(Regardless of markings).Someone shows you their valid reservation ticket.Since the reservation cannot be voided it still exists... Then I am afraid you are in breach of the Bye law above.

You can try and keep grasping at straws as much as you like but you haven't a leg to stand(or sit) on here.

you "class" the ticket as a reservation. there is nothing to say in any of the bye laws what classes a reservation, so foggy isn't wrong

CaliforniaDream

end of the road wrote: »

you "class" the ticket as a reservation. there is nothing to say in any of the bye laws what classes a reservation, so foggy isn't wrong

Seriously?
I think it's quite obvious you've deliberately made idiotic statements to rile people up. Because if it's the alternative, I feel sorry for you in life.

IE answered the question in the email in clear terms and still people refuse to accept it. At this stage it's just people with a lack of respect, manners, common decency and logic that will refuse to move.

dr.fuzzenstein

What a sad society we live in. Imagine if everything had to be fixed in law, if that happened we could call the gardai if someone occupies our seat and maybe later go to court to get compensation from Irish Rail and possibly initiate a civil suit against the perpetrator for damages arising from the distress. Maybe a test case would have to go as high as the supreme court and even Europe! It would take years and cost millions, but finally we could have even an amendment to the Irish constitution guaranteeing everyone who reserved a seat a right to that seat and financial penalties and even imprisonment for the seat taker.
Of course we will need laws to govern every aspect of our life, because people like Foggy are clearly not able to function until every single thing is either illegal or compulsory, things like kippers for breakfast, novelty socks, aftershave, water or milk in the porridge, it is clear that commons sense and courtesy mean nothing to people. And I think its time for Goodwin, but most of us don't want to live in Nazi Germany.

Victor

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You are not obliged by law to hold the door open for someone, you can gladly slam it in their face and walk off. You also not obliged by law to help someone up who has fallen, help someone change a tire, look after your neighbour's cat, pick up a friend who is stranded, visit your elderly mother, be kind to people in any way or behave in any way that could be described as social. And I suspect you don't.

Knock it off.

Moderator

Peppa Pig

end of the road wrote: »

you "class" the ticket as a reservation. there is nothing to say in any of the bye laws what classes a reservation, so foggy isn't wrong

There is

except the holder of a reservation ticket issued by the Board in respect of the holder's occupation or use of such compartment or seat.

It's a ticket issued by IR detailing the use of a particular seat or carriage.

Mind you, there is nothing in the bye-laws as to what classes as an engine or a train or a station. Do IR need to lay this down in law so we don't assume a train is the Coke machine on the platform?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

They have failed to state that a reservation exists at all if no reservations notices are placed on trains or if the system breaks down. they fudged the issue but was anything else expected?

and to answer an earlier question yes there is a name with the email but you hardly expect me to name individual staff on here?

Just keep emailing them Foggy until the answer suits your agenda.

Agent J

After rereading the original mail to Irish rail I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Foggy_Lad wrote:

I have a question about seat reservations on board trains.

By my count you actually have about 5.

Foggy_Lad wrote:

If I don't have a reservation and sit in a seat which is NOT marked as reserved in any way do I have to move if another passenger arrives later showing a reserved ticket for the seat I'm sitting in?

Question 1 - This is is clear and fair enough.

Foggy_Lad wrote:

if so why should any passenger be turfed out of their legitimately obtained seat and embarrassed in front of a carriage full of people when they have done nothing wrong?

Leading question - Do you really expect a customer service rep to answer that?

Foggy_Lad wrote:

I would never sit in a clearly marked reserved seat but often the reservation system is faulty or just not turned on at all, what should passengers do in these circumstances?

Self Justification posing as a question which is just a rewording of earlier ones.

Foggy_Lad wrote:

I would imagine that where the reservation system on board is faulty and no manual reservations have been placed on seats then all reservations for that service would be voided? Is this what happens?

You hoped incorrectly.

I might give Irish rail a lot of guff but I totally get why they responded how they did to you. You weren't asking them them a simple question. You were trying to ask 5 different versions on the same theme while attempting to justify your position and expectation. I am seriously expecting you to start asking them for staff numbers to prove they work for Irish rail next they give you an answer you won't accept.

I think it's even more clear when they staid "Under no circumstance however, is a customer’s reserved seat made void." they were covering everything you were trying to ask.

Crumbs868

Why don't foggy lad and end of the road (can't see anyone else objecting) book online and reserve a seat like everyone else, problem solved

efb

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Why don't foggy lad and end of the road (can't see anyone else objecting) book online and reserve a seat like everyone else, problem solved

that would cos money ted

Alf Veedersane

The tickets with online reservations have the seat reserved printed on them.

If someone is sitting in my seat when I board, and there hasn't been a paper notice on the seat or the digital notice beside the seats, I will show them a ticket.

Two things can then happen:

1) The person in my pre-booked seat will think "I don't want to move but I don't want to be a d*ck when they have clearly booked this seat" and will move.

2) They refuse to move because they're a d*ck.


It's all quite simple really.

dr.fuzzenstein

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The tickets with online reservations have the seat reserved printed on them.

If someone is sitting in my seat when I board, and there hasn't been a paper notice on the seat or the digital notice beside the seats, I will show them a ticket.

Two things can then happen:

1) The person in my pre-booked seat will think "I don't want to move but I don't want to be a d*ck when they have clearly booked this seat" and will move.

2) They refuse to move because they're a d*ck.


It's all quite simple really.

Would they pull that stuff on an airplane? Here's why not:
Foggy sits in random seat, Passenger comes up "Erm, excuse me, you're in my seat".
Foggy: "Well, there is no notice on this seat that it is reserved, ergo it is not reserved (at least in the fantasy world in his head) so I'm not moving"
Passenger: "Steward(ess)! This person is in my seat!"
Steward(ess): "Excuse me sir, you are in a reserved seat, please move pronto!"
Foggy: "(repeat the above)"
Result: Foggy removed from plane, arrested, newspaper headlines about air rage incident, court case, if lucky get off with warning and hefty fine.
I think Foggy's real motive is to implement the above on Irish Rail.
But I've been thinking and I don't believe Foggy really would not move. The constant theme in his arguments is the non-functioning of the display system that shows a seat is reserved and that he wouldn't sit in a seat that is marked reserved. My criticism is that he is too inflexible on that point, but (please correct me if I'm wrong) he would gladly abide by it if Irish Rail just fixed their damn system. I do not mean to speak for Foggy, so open top corrections.

foggy_lad

While it would be nice for all passengers if irish rail were to have reservations that worked properly all the time I don't believe this will happen as they have had at least 15 years of the current nonsense of passengers being able to sit in apparently free seats only to be told that the seats they have taken were already "bought" by someone else!

Irish rail have failed on this simple chore for so long it is almost certain they will never get it right or even close to right!

Alf Veedersane

foggy_lad wrote: »

While it would be nice for all passengers if irish rail were to have reservations that worked properly all the time I don't believe this will happen as they have had at least 15 years of the current nonsense of passengers being able to sit in apparently free seats only to be told that the seats they have taken were already "bought" by someone else!

Why "bought"?

They have a ticket, which they've paid for.

In all my train journeys, I never recall having a problem with the system.

Once someone was sitting in my pre-booked seat and the display had my name but she was old and there were plenty of seats on the carriage so I found myself an empty one.

Calina

foggy_lad wrote: »

While it would be nice for all passengers if irish rail were to have reservations that worked properly all the time I don't believe this will happen as they have had at least 15 years of the current nonsense of passengers being able to sit in apparently free seats only to be told that the seats they have taken were already "bought" by someone else!

Irish rail have failed on this simple chore for so long it is almost certain they will never get it right or even close to right!

Technically, the reservations work. It's whether they get loaded to the trainset or not is the problem. If they didn't work, people would not be able to make reservations online in the first place.

I don't recall it being possible to reserve seats online 15 years ago; I'm absolutely certain it wasn't. So yammering about having at least 15 years to get it right is nonsense.

I've already pointed out to you - and you refuse to accept it - that building the end to end process is not a simple chore. The fact that you persist in claiming that it is makes it clear that you do not know what you are talking about in terms of building a reservation system.

I travel on intercity trains in Ireland from time to time. I have ONCE had an issue where the reservations weren't loaded at departure time. ONCE.

Maybe I am incredibly lucky. I would be surprised, however.

Pinch Flat

efb wrote: »

that would cos money ted

Costs nothing to reserve a seat

Alf Veedersane

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Costs nothing to reserve a seat

I think it does.

Costs me a fiver to reserve a seat for the babóg.

dr.fuzzenstein

foggy_lad wrote: »

While it would be nice for all passengers if irish rail were to have reservations that worked properly all the time I don't believe this will happen as they have had at least 15 years of the current nonsense of passengers being able to sit in apparently free seats only to be told that the seats they have taken were already "bought" by someone else!

Irish rail have failed on this simple chore for so long it is almost certain they will never get it right or even close to right!

I understand you reasoning, even though I dont agree with it or your stance on the issue.

dr.fuzzenstein

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I think it does.

Costs me a fiver to reserve a seat for the babóg.

Ryanair have a lot to answer for.

Pinch Flat

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I think it does.

Costs me a fiver to reserve a seat for the babóg.

Looking at tickets at the mo from waterford to Dublin for the weekend - no charge to reserve.

You can reserve a seat only if you have free travel (social or pensioner) - this costs money

neckedit

can't belive this thread is still running.

Pinch Flat

neckedit wrote: »

can't belive this thread is still running.

That's the good thing about boards - you'll get someone whose blatantly in the wrong but will still come back and back again until the thread is flogged to death and eventually locked