Match Thread : Irish Wolfhounds V England Saxons Friday 30th Jan 2015

Irish Independent Park | Kick Off 19:45 | RTE 2 Sky Sports 2

Weather conditions : Dry, Scattered Clouds, 3 Degrees, 80% Humidity, 21 KPH Winds

Introduction

Musgrave Park. Refurbished and renamed to Irish Independent Park hosts the Irish Wolfhounds as they take on the England Saxons in a fixture that was once a passable event in the Irish Rugby Calendar.

Attitudes towards this fixture have changed however due to one important and somewhat new aspect of Irish Rugby. Depth.

Much of this team on paper has the potential to be or has recently been first choice and the permutations regarding who will start next week are going to lead to a tremendous number of yellow cards in various threads in the coming days.

I can only imagine that Joe sat up last night and studied all the possibilities, eventualities and statistics to come up with the absolute best 23 to test combinations, fitness and competition for places. Either that, or he said feck it - what "typical Joe curveball" will most likely mess with heads on boards.ie

One player you would expect to start next week, but may still need a big performance tomorrow is Ian Madigan. Like Tony Ward in the famous 1981 Munster victory over Australia at this very venue, Madigan finds himself at 10 despite a gruelling season to date switching between out-half and centre. With so much rugby played over recent weeks I would expect to see him make way early... but for whom!

He is joined at scrum half by Kieran Marmion who is slowly breaking into the Irish set up and will have a lot to prove given the potential injuries to Murray / Reddan.

All eyes will also be on the returning Sean O'Brien. Nothing else needs to be said here and I am going to cringe the first couple of tackles he makes. He is joined by an all Leinster back row with Conan at 8 who has made a significant breakthrough this year and Dominic Ryan at 6 though I suspect he will be playing in much the same capacity as Peter O'Mahony in the same position.

In the front row Mike Ross who has apparently dropped down the pecking order at Leinster will look to get some momentum back. Henderson at 4 instead of 6 may illustrate Joe's thinking and Luke and Earls look like they are competing for utility centre / back 3 bench spot.

Team sheets & Player Ratings

To add some important context to the team sheets I have included player ratings based on the only two metrics that count.

1. Number of European Cup Winners medals
2. Number of times Approached by Toulouse

Toulouse ERC Ireland Position England ERC Toulouse
0 0 Felix Jones 15 Chris Pennell 0 0
0 2 Fergus McFaddan 14 Chris Ashton 0 0
0 1 Keith Earls 13 Elliot Daly 0 0
0 3 Gordon D'Arcy 12 Sam Burgess 0 0
0 2 Luke Fitzgerald 11 Marland Yarde 0 0
0 2 Ian Madigan 10 Henry Slade 0 0
0 0 Kieran Marmion 9 Lee Dickson 0 0
0 0 Jack McGrath 1 Matt Mullan 0 0
0 2 Richardt Strauss 2 Rob Webber 0 0
0 2 Mike Ross 3 Henry Thomas 0 0
0 0 Iain Henderson 4 Matt Garvey 0 0
0 0 Micke McCarthy 5 James Gaskell 0 0
0 0 Dominic Ryan 6 Dave Ewers 0 0
0 3 Sean O'F'ING Brien 7 Matt Kvesic 0 0
0 0 Jack Conan 8 Thomas Waldrom 0 0

0 0 Rob Herring 16 Luke Cowan Dickie 0 0
0 0 Michael Bent 17 Alex Waller 0 0
0 1 Nathan White 18 Jake Cooper-Woolley 0 0
0 0 Robbie Diack 19 Maro Itoje 0 0
0 0 Eoin McKeon 20 Carl Fearns 0 0
0 1 Isaac Boss 21 Joe Simpson 0 0
0 0 Noel Reid 22 Ollie Devoto 0 0
0 0 Craig Gilroy 23 Christian Wade 0 0
Total Total Total Total
0 17 0 0

The difference in experience jumps off the page though one would wonder as to the fundamental quality of players in the absence of any direct approaches from the French side.

It's hard to tell if this is a purely experimental English unit to test out some newer talent or if it is in reaction to the heavy injury toll they are currently suffering. Either way, a reverse of 2013's 14 - 10 loss would be expected given the above team sheets.

Planet Rugby have a brief article on the English team here.

Both sides have plenty of players with plenty to prove so this game should be close enough to test standard, but I can't see anything other than a win for Ireland.

total former

I see you've stripped Nathan White of his Heineken Cup medal, as punishment for deserting us. Nice one.

its_phil

Are those ERC European Cup medals? Because if you haven't heard they don't count anymore. EPCR or nothing

its_phil

Main hope from this game other than a good showing at half-back, is SOB to bosh Burgess and "say welcome to union b****

duckysauce

Anyone know who is reffing this ?

durkadurka

Is this last chance soon for Ross and Dorce I wonder ?

Neil3030

durkadurka wrote: »

Is this last chance soon for Ross and Dorce I wonder ?

Swiwi.

Had me panicking for a minute there. I was like 9.45 kick-off in Ireland makes it 2245 in Switzerland, wow that's a late game! Then I was like surely not 9.45am?!

I think you mean 1945

irishbucsfan

Swiwi. wrote: »

Had me panicking for a minute there. I was like 9.45 kick-off in Ireland makes it 2245 in Switzerland, wow that's a late game! Then I was like surely not 9.45am?!

I think you mean 1945

No I don't think the Saxons or the Wolhounds existed in 1945

Swiwi.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No I don't think the Saxons or the Wolhounds existed in 1945

For IBF and other pedants - 19:45 :P

NB: Was jaco not captain of the wolfhounds in '45?

Swiwi.

Swiwi. wrote: »

For IBF and other pedants - 19:45 :P

NB: Was jaco not captain of the wolfhounds in '45?

Yup, 1845

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup, 1845

Damn you Emmet, beat me to it!

RogerThis

Is Reid a 10, only seen him play center?

irishbucsfan

RogerThis wrote: »

Is Reid a 10, only seen him play center?

No, he has played 10 but never successfully.

The Lost Sheep

RogerThis wrote: »

Is Reid a 10, only seen him play center?

Primarily a centre but has played a bit at 10 and was a 10 at age grade level

vienne86

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Primarily a centre but has played a bit at 10 and was a 10 at age grade level

I once saw him play 10 for the A's. He's not a 10.

The Lost Sheep

vienne86 wrote: »

I once saw him play 10 for the A's. He's not a 10.

Did I say he was? He's played there. He played there at age grade and has played there on occasion since

mfceiling

I'm worried that Burgess and SOB collide at some stage tomorrow. Something similar happened 14 billion years ago and look what happened...

vienne86

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Did I say he was? He's played there. He played there at age grade and has played there on occasion since

.....which makes it very surprising that he could find himself playing 10 for the Wolfhounds.

total former

The notion that Reid is a terrible fly half stems from one game against Munster A, two or three years ago.

He's definitely a 12 by trade but f**k it, if he has to play 10 for 20 minutes in a meaningless exhibition match, we'll survive.

RogerThis

total former wrote: »

The notion that Reid is a terrible fly half stems from one game against Munster A, two or three years ago.

He's definitely a 12 by trade but f**k it, if he has to play 10 for 20 minutes in a meaningless exhibition match, we'll survive.

So he is Paddy Wallace 2.0

He's a really good 12. Himself and Henshaw would be a good centre partnership.

total former

RogerThis wrote: »

So he is Paddy Wallace 2.0

If he turns out to be as good as 1.0 I'll be very happy.

bilston

RogerThis wrote: »

So he is Paddy Wallace 2.0

Hopefully!

f1dan

duckysauce wrote: »

Anyone know who is reffing this ?

Neil Hennessy from Wales I believe

CIARAN_BOYLE

RogerThis wrote: »

So he is Paddy Wallace 2.0

He's a really good 12. Himself and Henshaw would be a good centre partnership.

Pretty much yeah

vienne86

total former wrote: »

The notion that Reid is a terrible fly half stems from one game against Munster A, two or three years ago.

He's definitely a 12 by trade but f**k it, if he has to play 10 for 20 minutes in a meaningless exhibition match, we'll survive.

I think that's a fair comment. I'm a bit of a fan of Reid, and I'm delighted he's got himself on the bench tomorrow, given he has missed out so much with injury.

English Lurker

I would like to say that, about the fifth time I saw him, I discovered a great urge to see Henderson, Ferris and O'Brien on the same pitch. Obviously I will never get to see that, but I do feel a sense of unholy glee at getting to see Henderson and O'Brien combine, even if these are the worst circumstances I could see in it. Que sera, sera - I am a rugby fan before I am an Englishman.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's hard to tell if this is a purely experimental English unit to test out some newer talent or if it is in reaction to the heavy injury toll they are currently suffering. Either way, a reverse of 2013's 14 - 10 loss would be expected given the above team sheets.

Planet Rugby have a brief article on the English team here.

The only non-standard parts about this team are the second row and 10-12-13; and even then, everyone involved but Slammin' Sam have Saxons caps.

Garvey, Gaskell and Itoje wouldn't be involved if we didn't have 4 locks out; I don't see Garvey and Gaskell ever playing for England, but Itoje is a shooting star.

Henry Slade has been blowing up the Premiership at 13 for Exeter but was fly-half and vice-captain for England against the Barbarians last summer; he's a big part of our future. Big things are expected of Burgess of course. Daly's a bit of a surprise imo, his previous Saxons caps have mainly been in the back three, and I don't think he has an England future at 13; but he's certainly part of the reckoning and he's been playing more at 13 this year, so makes some sense.

Rest of the team... Mullan, Webber, Thomas all have caps; Webber will go the WC, the other two are one injury away. Kvesic and Waldrom likewise have caps and have been around the squad, Ewers has been threatening to break through for a while. Dickson, Yarde and Ashton all been around plenty, Pennell broke through last summer but has been unlucky with injuries.

Two things I'm worried about are defence - none of our three-quarter line are known for getting it right - and the lineout, where Webber's been wobbly and he only really had one target. But then, the Irish pack isn't brimming with top jumpers either.

If England can get a decent supply of ball, then it's a very mobile pack and we have a number of very big men. Obviously we've got no monopoly, but it would be no surprise if Garvey/Ewers/Waldrom/Burgess made in-roads into a relatively small centre partnership. I hope Ashton and Yarde are working hard to track runs because I think that's England's best hope; our centre partnership aren't great distributors and McFadden/Fitz are *very* solid defensive wings.

Ireland have a straight-up advantage in terms of quality and experience. I don't think any of you would be terribly concerned if this team entire played Italy. Players like O'Brien, Henderson, Fitzgerald - there are some phenomenally good players there. I noted England's big men; McCarthy, Henderson, O'Brien and the Barbarian is one hell of a brute squad for grabbing front foot ball. The strike running talent out wide is silly - having Gilroy on the bench for an A game is just obscene. Crucially, I think Ireland look like being a lot better at the breakdown than England, and I think that will give them the sort of dominance this quality should not squander.

Bluntly, I'd be happy with staying within 7; a big loss wouldn't surprise me too much but I'd unhappy with it. Around a 10-12 point difference sounds right. At least we'll be seeing some of those Irish boys going off early...

managerman

i think this game is more for madigan to get game time at 10, i fully expect him to play 10 next week, ross needs game time too, last few weeks he has been ousted by marty moore.. hopefully it will be a good game to watch, free flowing rugby!

errlloyd

English Lurker wrote: »

Pennell broke through last summer but has been unlucky with injuries.

Wanna zoom in on Pennell here. He's playing in the championship, but apparently was simply the only good thing about Worchester last season. Have you seen much of him, could you compare his style to a fullback we know better and do you see him being great?

Bridge93

Hard to believe that England team is probably their 3rd but mostly 4th choice players in most positions. Crazy depth in some spots.

thebaz

mfceiling wrote: »

I'm worried that Burgess and SOB collide at some stage tomorrow. Something similar happened 14 billion years ago and look what happened...

I'm hoping SOB has a quiet game , just a few gentle runs - no big hits - leave that to Ryan . In fact i hope SOB does very little except stay fit until the WC - and then unleashed full throttle on the world

duckysauce

thebaz wrote: »

I'm hoping SOB has a quiet game , just a few gentle runs - no big hits - leave that to Ryan . In fact i hope SOB does very little except stay fit until the WC - and then unleashed full throttle on the world

gentle runs :eek:

English Lurker

errlloyd wrote: »

Wanna zoom in on Pennell here. He's playing in the championship, but apparently was simply the only good thing about Worchester last season. Have you seen much of him, could you compare his style to a fullback we know better and do you see him being great?

I didn't really see much of Wuss but he's a class act and far, far too good for the Championship. International class, great - I don't know but based on what I've seen so far it would be nice to find out. It's a shame he stuck with Wuss as its hampering that but I can't find fault with loyalty like that in this day and age.

I'd hesitate to compare him to another player, I don't know what he does that well, but he does have a booming boot and (most interestingly to me) combines quick feet with genuine power. That is a rare combination - I feel Kearney's about the only other NH full-back with it - and if he shows that against the Wolfhounds I'd be very interested in him getting more chances.

Good highlights video of him here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2N137j8glY - think my favourite moment is him spotting there's no gap, so he powers into the Wasps hooker, knocks him a little out of the way, and spins off into the gap he's just made and makes yards. Very rare to see a player show intelligence, power and agility like that in such short succession.

Swiwi.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup, 1845

Good point emmet. Jacothelad is also know as William. And of course it was William who first picked up the soccer ball and gave us rugby. Ergo, we are all indebted to Jaco for the enjoyment his sport brings us. Cheers mate!

durkadurka

Swiwi. wrote: »

Good point emmet. Jacothelad is also know as William. And of course it was William who first picked up the soccer ball and gave us rugby. Ergo, we are all indebted to Jaco for the enjoyment his sport brings us. Cheers mate!

Jaco went to school with William Webb Ellis didn't he?

dregin

I heard that Tom Brown's School Days is actually Jaco's autobiography...

Larbre34

Don't mind gentle runs for SOB, I want a highlights reel (mainly containing Chris Ashton) to which the voiceover is........

molloyjh

Looking at the interview with Earls in the 42 yesterday he talks about not having done an 80 minutes and feeling the effects of the game time he got against Sale. Might we see Gilroy come on for him in the second half and Luke move to 13 I wonder?

Big Nelly

molloyjh wrote: »

Looking at the interview with Earls in the 42 yesterday he talks about not having done an 80 minutes and feeling the effects of the game time he got against Sale. Might we see Gilroy come on for him in the second half and Luke move to 13 I wonder?

I cant see Earls/SOB/Madigan playing the 80....

Luke has played a number of full games recently and is trying to get a good bti of time on pitch so I can see him playing 80...

If Luke comes off it would suggest he has a role for the Italy match, maybe on bench to cover wing/centre/full back

Wang King

Big Nelly wrote: »

I cant see Earls/SOB/Madigan playing the 80....

Luke has played a number of full games recently and is trying to get a good bti of time on pitch so I can see him playing 80...

If Luke comes off it would suggest he has a role for the Italy match, maybe on bench to cover wing/centre/full back

Wing and center maybe, but not fullback

Big Nelly

Wang King wrote: »

Wing and center maybe, but not fullback

Has played Full Back before for Ireland....so has Earls(correct me if wrong but Im sure Earls played Full Back at one stage)

So can cover that role if it come to it.....

Similar to Madigan on bench for Ireland when Sexton is playing, can cover a number of roles which is a bonus

irishbucsfan

Big Nelly wrote: »

Has played Full Back before for Ireland....so has Earls(correct me if wrong but Im sure Earls played Full Back at one stage)

So can cover that role if it come to it.....

Similar to Madigan on bench for Ireland when Sexton is playing, can cover a number of roles which is a bonus

Earls played full back against England in 2011

aimee1

Big Nelly wrote: »

I cant see Earls/SOB/Madigan playing the 80....

Luke has played a number of full games recently and is trying to get a good bti of time on pitch so I can see him playing 80...

If Luke comes off it would suggest he has a role for the Italy match, maybe on bench to cover wing/centre/full back

Earls needs a full 80 though at some point if he is to start a 6n game, otherwise he will be on the bench at best. If he feels the effects of 50 minutes or so against Sale 2nds then it would be very risky having him on a starting XV in the 6n

yosser hughes

I'm glad Luke Fitz is making his way back, hopefully he can impress again tonight. He's a class act,i'd rather seem him at centre though

Big Nelly

aimee1 wrote: »

Earls needs a full 80 though at some point if he is to start a 6n game, otherwise he will be on the bench at best. If he feels the effects of 50 minutes or so against Sale 2nds then it would be very risky having him on a starting XV in the 6n

That is why I think like SOB he might be sent back to Munster to get a game....I am not saying drop him from squad but better playing 80 for Munster than working in training

Tox56

Big Nelly wrote: »

That is why I think like SOB he might be sent back to Munster to get a game....

SOB is many things but a Munster player isn't one of them

Big Nelly

Tox56 wrote: »

SOB is many things but a Munster player isn't one of them

haha :P:P

Just to clear it up, SOB back to Leinster and Earls to Munster

awec

O'Brien and Henderson is like Ireland's version of the Bash Brothers. I guess only people around my age will get the Mighty Ducks reference.

Big Nelly

awec wrote: »

O'Brien and Henderson is like Ireland's version of the Bash Brothers. I guess only people around my age will get the Might Ducks reference.

Is joe then Emilio Estevez/Gordan Bombay??

Now I must watch that film tonight:D:D

Doubt Joe has a booze issue!

ssaye2

Big Nelly wrote: »

Is joe then Emilio Estevez/Gordan Bombay??

Now I must watch that film tonight:D:D

Wait and you see our flying v attack