Why do people want to have Children

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

And I respect that I don't know why I feel the way I do either, but I accept it and know I wont be happy without children, the same way that I accept there are people who would be unhappy with them. The problem comes when people don't respect these differences and try to impose their will on others thinking that because it is right for them it must be right for everyone else. And from experience....it is the ones who already have kids who are the worst offenders in this regard.

I think everyone is as bad as each other. I know a lot of "if you had kids you'd get it" types who think those without children are missing out on something. But equally I know people who don't have children who think I'm missing out on something because I can't do the things they want to. Worst thing you can do is project your feelings onto someone else. I don't want a life without children, I do sometimes wish I could just go out on the spur of the moment but it passes just as I'm sure the broody moments pass for those who don't want them. Ultimately everyone I know is happy with the choices that they have made regarding kids and that is all that matters.

Mr. teddywinkles

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I haven't done a lot of things in life, like jumping off cliffs, because I've seen what happens to other people who jump off cliffs... it doesn't end well. That's how I know.

That's how I also know it's a meaningless, patronising phrase when it comes to having children or not.




You're right, that is petty. I don't know too many people who base any life changing decisions on the opinions of people on the internet.

Jumping off a cliff you say. A bit extreme but if you said sky diving. I'd like to try sky diving but I don't know whether I'd like it or not till after iv done it. Prolly wouldn't have the balls to do it.

Look what ever does it for ya. Have kid dont have them. I didn't know wether I wanted kids or not till I had one. That's my point.

Menas

eviltwin wrote: »

Ultimately everyone I know is happy with the choices that they have made regarding kids and that is all that matters.

That for me is the key point. Most people make a decision and seem happy with that decision.
There are of course some for whom Nature makes that decision for them. Or those that leave that decision too late. And that can be sad.
If course, in our parents time, with no contraception, there was no control over the decision for many.

Addle

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Look what ever does it for ya. Haves don't have. I didn't know wether I want kids or not till I had one. That's my point

And what if you realised you didn't want one after your child was born?

One eyed Jack

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Look what ever does it for ya. Have kid dont have them. I didn't know wether I wanted kids or not till I had one. That's my point.

That's a slight but important difference from your point you were making earlier, where you were suggesting that other people who are not you, wouldn't know until they had children whether they wanted them or not.

You didn't know, for yourself is the key point there. Other people are saying that they are sure with their decision that they don't want children, and that's what they have decided, for themselves.


Reminds me of those kind of people who used tell me when my wife was expecting our first child - "Oh you'll want a house for him now", and as soon as he was born - "Are you going to have another, you'll have to give him a playmate!"...

People mapping out my life for me according to their standards. I put up with that shìte when I was a child, because I had to.

As an adult with my own mind and capable of making decisions for myself? Not so much

Playboy

Tony EH wrote: »

I consider it far more selfish of people to WANT children. In fact it's an entirely selfish act. Bringing another life into existence (where uncertainty is the absolute factor) because you WANT something.

You mentioned earlier that there was no purpose to life. I would say that the only objective purpose to life is to reproduce as Dawkins explained in 'The Selfish Gene'. Our biology is geared towards performing this one role and I would say it is something you become acutely aware of when you become a parent. To be part of the reproductive process (post intercourse ofc ) at all stages is a wondrous thing, feelings you never knew existed come to the fore and your whole perspective on life changes.

Now contesting that something is morally or ethically a selfish act even though in a biological sense it is what we are here to do is a bit of a conundrum. I mean if we all just said no to reproduction then what would happen? Who would pay the taxes and provide the services to ensure society continues as you progress into old age? Do you think the continued existence of the human race is a bad thing? Should we just end it all because of the suffering we inflict on animals, the environment and each other? If so then I understand your view point but if not then I'm a bit confused.

When having and raising children the ethical approach is of course to try and raise individuals who will make this world a better place, who will have the benefits of countless generations of learning so that at some point in the future we as a species may attain some level of harmony with each other and our environment. Choosing not to have kids for whatever reason doesn't do anything other than abdicate your participation in any future we as a species may have (unless you contribute some new discovery to the human race). I'm not sure how that is any less selfish than choosing to have kids... You want to protect your offspring from a potential uncertain environment, is that not selfish? You don't want the hardships of a pessimistic future inflicted upon your children or your conscience so you just check out?

Personally I wanted to have kids because I thought I could raise good human beings who will contribute positively to society. If I didnt think that then I wouldnt have had kids. I also wanted to experience one of the most fundamental aspects of what it means to be human and I would have felt I would have missed out on something important if I avoided it. Was that selfish? Maybe but I'm not convinced it fits the definition. Yes my life could have been a lot easier without kids and believe me sometimes I am desperate for a morning in bed or an evening off but most parents will tell you that the trade off isnt worth it. It is simply the most fulfilling, rewarding and amazing experience that I have had in my life to this point. It doesnt feel selfish when you are surviving on a couple of hours sleep every night and all your free time goes into feeding, changing nappies and trying to prevent the child from doing whatever dangerous activity takes his/her fancy.

This doesnt mean I think parents who chose not to have kids are selfish. I think people have many different reasons for not having kids and to be fair if you chose not to have kids because you dont feel the biological or emotional urge then fair play as it probably safer to avoid it rather than being a poor parent which isnt fair on a child. That is an unselfish act and I would think it would be the main reason behind most parents who make the choice.

OldNotWIse

Playboy wrote: »

You mentioned earlier that there was no purpose to life. I would say that the only objective purpose to life is to reproduce as Dawkins explained in 'The Selfish Gene'. Our biology is geared towards performing this one role and I would say it is something you become acutely aware of when you become a parent. To be part of the reproductive process (post intercourse ofc ) at all stages is a wondrous thing, feelings you never knew existed come to the fore and your whole perspective on life changes.

Now contesting that something is morally or ethically a selfish act even though in a biological sense it is what we are here to do is a bit of a conundrum. I mean if we all just said no to reproduction then what would happen? Who would pay the taxes and provide the services to ensure society continues as you progress into old age? Do you think the continued existence of the human race is a bad thing? Should we just end it all because of the suffering we inflict on animals, the environment and each other? If so then I understand your view point but if not then I'm a bit confused.

When having and raising children the ethical approach is of course to try and raise individuals who will make this world a better place, who will have the benefits of countless generations of learning so that at some point in the future we as a species may attain some level of harmony with each other and our environment. Choosing not to have kids for whatever reason doesn't do anything other than abdicate your participation in any future we as a species may have (unless you contribute some new discovery to the human race). I'm not sure how that is any less selfish than choosing to have kids... You want to protect your offspring from a potential uncertain environment, is that not selfish? You don't want the hardships of a pessimistic future inflicted upon your children or your conscience so you just check out?

Personally I wanted to have kids because I thought I could raise good human beings who will contribute positively to society. If I didnt think that then I wouldnt have had kids. I also wanted to experience one of the most fundamental aspects of what it means to be human and I would have felt I would have missed out on something important if I avoided it. Was that selfish? Maybe but I'm not convinced it fits the definition. Yes my life could have been a lot easier without kids and believe me sometimes I am desperate for a morning in bed or an evening off but most parents will tell you that the trade off isnt worth it. It is simply the most fulfilling, rewarding and amazing experience that I have had in my life to this point. It doesnt feel selfish when you are surviving on a couple of hours sleep every night and all your free time goes into feeding, changing nappies and trying to prevent the child from doing whatever dangerous activity takes his/her fancy.

This doesnt mean I think parents who chose not to have kids are selfish. I think people have many different reasons for not having kids and to be fair if you chose not to have kids because you dont feel the biological or emotional urge then fair play as it probably safer to avoid it rather than being a poor parent which isnt fair on a child. That is an unselfish act and I would think it would be the main reason behind most parents who make the choice.

Do you mean "people" or do we only become real people when we procreate? TBH (and I want kids), I get kind of tired of listening to people saying the same thing over and over (and social media is a whore for this). Constant feeds about their little darlings and what they did next. Not to mention the fact that the child is not of an age whereby he or she can consent to having his/her photo plastered all over a social media site I'd one last week from a cousin (a repeat offender who has lost all sense of personal identity since she had her kids and lives vicariously through their bowel movements, yoga and other such "achievements" who spouted a monologue about how being a parent is the "best job in the world". Now, I know what she meant, but still. The best job in the world? What about paediatric consultants? Neurosurgeons? Humanitarian workers? Human rights lawyers? Care home workers? Nope :rolleyes: Perhaps she meant "the most enjoyable job in the world" - which I would probably have let go.

One eyed Jack

Playboy wrote: »

You mentioned earlier that there was no purpose to life. I would say that the only objective purpose to life is to reproduce as Dawkins explained in 'The Selfish Gene'. Our biology is geared towards performing this one role and I would say it is something you become acutely aware of when you become a parent. To be part of the reproductive process (post intercourse ofc ) at all stages is a wondrous thing, feelings you never knew existed come to the fore and your whole perspective on life changes.

I must have missed the memo on that :pac:

When having and raising children the ethical approach is of course to try and raise individuals who will make this world a better place, who will have the benefits of countless generations of learning so that at some point in the future we as a species may attain some level of harmony with each other and our environment. Choosing not to have kids for whatever reason doesn't do anything other than abdicate your participation in any future we as a species may have (unless you contribute some new discovery to the human race). I'm not sure how that is any less selfish than choosing to have kids... You want to protect your offspring from a potential uncertain environment, is that not selfish? You don't want the hardships of a pessimistic future inflicted upon your children or your conscience so you just check out?

I definitely missed the memo on that.

Personally I wanted to have kids because I thought I could raise good human beings who will contribute positively to society. If I didnt think that then I wouldnt have had kids. I also wanted to experience one of the most fundamental aspects of what it means to be human and I would have felt I would have missed out on something important if I avoided it. Was that selfish? Maybe but I'm not convinced it fits the definition. Yes my life could have been a lot easier without kids and believe me sometimes I am desperate for a morning in bed or an evening off but most parents will tell you that the trade off isnt worth it. It is simply the most fulfilling, rewarding and amazing experience that I have had in my life to this point. It doesnt feel selfish when you are surviving on a couple of hours sleep every night and all your free time goes into feeding, changing nappies and trying to prevent the child from doing whatever dangerous activity takes his/her fancy.

I've had a lot more fulfilling, rewarding and amazing experiences in my life than raising children. I understand you were speaking from your own personal perspective, but raising a child isn't like you just split the atom. Every human being is capable of raising a child.

This doesnt mean I think parents who chose not to have kids are selfish. I think people have many different reasons for not having kids and to be fair if you chose not to have kids because you dont feel the biological or emotional urge then fair play as it probably safer to avoid it rather than being a poor parent which isnt fair on a child. That is an unselfish act and I would think it would be the main reason behind most parents who make the choice.

I think you've been reading too much Dawkins tbh.

OldNotWIse

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think you've been reading too much Dawkins tbh.

Is that Richard Dawkins? The "popular scientist". Ah here :rolleyes: He's science's answer to the National Enquirer :P

I really do think it's a ridiculous leap to say "people have kids because they want to make the world a better place". Nobody is that feckin altruistic. I want kids and I am not ashamed to say it's simply because my body tells me "you must make babies" - it seems to be a hormonal, survival-driven instinct. I mean, there are 4 days a month when I want them more than others! It's clearly biologically driven. It has feck all to do with wanting to make the world a better place. And anyway....look around...the world's a shíthole anyway. I consider it selfish to bring a child into it in the first place, never mind expecting the poor wee lad to make it a better place when he gets here :P It would be better off if the human race did die out. We are the ones knocking it off kilter.

Tony EH

Playboy wrote: »

You mentioned earlier that there was no purpose to life. I would say that the only objective purpose to life is to reproduce as Dawkins explained in 'The Selfish Gene'.

What I mean by no purpose is that for human beings there is no "higher plain" of "purpose" as it were. Too many people think that we are here for a "reason". We not really, but I'd agree with you that as organisms, we have an innate desire to reproduce.

But, that's not what I was getting at.

Playboy wrote: »

Now contesting that something is morally or ethically a selfish act even though in a biological sense it is what we are here to do is a bit of a conundrum. I mean if we all just said no to reproduction then what would happen? Who would pay the taxes and provide the services to ensure society continues as you progress into old age? Do you think the continued existence of the human race is a bad thing? Should we just end it all because of the suffering we inflict on animals, the environment and each other? If so then I understand your view point but if not then I'm a bit confused.

Another one who's confused. As I said earlier, I really cannot make the point an simpler than I already have.

WANTING to create a new life, a life that has no say in the matter whatsoever, simply because YOU WANT to is in it's very basic form an extremely selfish act. There's no two ways about that.

The operative word here is --->want<---

Nobody is gifting the world with their progeny, or creating kids to keep the species alive. Not cognitively anyway and they certainly aren't worried about who will pay taxes. Nor have I said (on this thread anyway) that the continuation of humanity should be halted (despite our very real detrimental effect on our planet and each other) and that's all really beside the point.

My point about WANTING to HAVE a child being a selfish act was in response to another poster who said that she believed that not having kids was selfish and I believe that the opposite is more the case. That doesn't mean I think it's "bad" or "wrong". Just that it's born (pardon the pun) out of a selfish desire.

I must say I'M confused at how many people are confused at the statement. :pac: It's really quite simple.

Roquentin

Tony EH wrote: »

What I mean by no purpose is that for human beings there is no "higher plain" of "purpose" as it were. Too many people think that we are here for a "reason". We not really, but I'd agree with you that as organisms, we have an innate desire to reproduce.

But, that's not what I was getting at.



Another one who's confused. As I said earlier, I really cannot make the point an simpler than I already have.

WANTING to create a new life, a life that has no say in the matter whatsoever, simply because YOU WANT to is in it's very basic form an extremely selfish act. There's no two ways about that.

The operative word here is --->want<---

Nobody is gifting the world with their progeny, or creating kids to keep the species alive. Not cognitively anyway and they certainly aren't worried about who will pay taxes. Nor have I said (on this thread anyway) that the continuation of humanity should be halted (despite our very real detrimental effect on our planet and each other) and that's all really beside the point.

My point about WANTING to HAVE a child being a selfish act was in response to another poster who said that she believed that not having kids was selfish and I believe that the opposite is more the case. That doesn't mean I think it's "bad" or "wrong". Just that it's born (pardon the pun) out of a selfish desire.

I must say I'M confused at how many people are confused at the statement. :pac: It's really quite simple.

i dont know if its selfish. maybe raising a kid when you dont have the means to provide for one is.

the desire is unconscious. often it is coupled with social pressures

Tony EH

But selfishness is largely unconscious desire. It's not stopping to contemplate the possible ramifications of ones actions upon others.

In the case of having children, there are an extremely large amount of people out there that could do with a bit of that contemplation before filling the world with their "little angels".

Roquentin

Tony EH wrote: »

But selfishness is largely unconscious desire. It's not stopping to contemplate the possible ramifications of ones actions upon others.

In the case of having children, there are an extremely large amount of people out there that could do with a bit of that contemplation before filling the world with their "little angels".

im not trying to be rude tony, when you get hungry you have a desire to eat. the desire is not selfish or glorious or anything. it is an urge designed to make you want to eat to further your survival.

ok maybe if you are competing with others for the same food supply, you get selfish. so women may compete with other women for a desirable man and that is envy. but the actual desire to have children is unconscious. people are programmed that way.

lack of foresight yes, but i am struggling to see how selfishness plays a huge part. i agree people should analyse themselves better with regards having a child. do i really want this or am i just bowing to programmed desire and social pressure.

Playboy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Do you mean "people" or do we only become real people when we procreate? TBH (and I want kids), I get kind of tired of listening to people saying the same thing over and over (and social media is a whore for this). Constant feeds about their little darlings and what they did next. Not to mention the fact that the child is not of an age whereby he or she can consent to having his/her photo plastered all over a social media site I'd one last week from a cousin (a repeat offender who has lost all sense of personal identity since she had her kids and lives vicariously through their bowel movements, yoga and other such "achievements" who spouted a monologue about how being a parent is the "best job in the world". Now, I know what she meant, but still. The best job in the world? What about paediatric consultants? Neurosurgeons? Humanitarian workers? Human rights lawyers? Care home workers? Nope :rolleyes: Perhaps she meant "the most enjoyable job in the world" - which I would probably have let go.

Not sure what I'm supposed to respond to other than the typo? Nothing that you said has anything to do with my post

Playboy

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I must have missed the memo on that :pac:
I definitely missed the memo on that.

I guess you did.. are you contesting that lol?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I've had a lot more fulfilling, rewarding and amazing experiences in my life than raising children. I understand you were speaking from your own personal perspective, but raising a child isn't like you just split the atom. Every human being is capable of raising a child.

Fair enough.. I was talking about my personal perspective. Yes it might not be splitting the atom but procreating is kinda different to an abstract intellectual pursuit.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think you've been reading too much Dawkins tbh.

Well I have read most of Dawkins but mostly a few years ago and I'm not really a huge fan. His work suffered when he moved away from Science related issues to Religious/Social issues. But to be honest i dont see any connection between what you quoted and bolded and Dawkins. Would you mind elaborating rather than just being vaguely smug

Playboy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Is that Richard Dawkins? The "popular scientist". Ah here :rolleyes: He's science's answer to the National Enquirer :P

I really do think it's a ridiculous leap to say "people have kids because they want to make the world a better place". Nobody is that feckin altruistic. I want kids and I am not ashamed to say it's simply because my body tells me "you must make babies" - it seems to be a hormonal, survival-driven instinct. I mean, there are 4 days a month when I want them more than others! It's clearly biologically driven. It has feck all to do with wanting to make the world a better place. And anyway....look around...the world's a shíthole anyway. I consider it selfish to bring a child into it in the first place, never mind expecting the poor wee lad to make it a better place when he gets here :P It would be better off if the human race did die out. We are the ones knocking it off kilter.

I think you are a bit confused about Dawkins with that comparison lol? His early scientific work to which I referred is very highly regarded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

To the rest of your post I'm not really sure how you landed on that from I said. Yes wanting to raise children who will contribute to society is an aim for lots of parents? I dont understand how can you claim it wouldnt be, who wouldnt want their child to be someone who made some amazing scientific discovery or win a Nobel Prize?

Playboy

Tony EH wrote: »

What I mean by no purpose is that for human beings there is no "higher plain" of "purpose" as it were. Too many people think that we are here for a "reason". We not really, but I'd agree with you that as organisms, we have an innate desire to reproduce.

But, that's not what I was getting at.



Another one who's confused. As I said earlier, I really cannot make the point an simpler than I already have.

WANTING to create a new life, a life that has no say in the matter whatsoever, simply because YOU WANT to is in it's very basic form an extremely selfish act. There's no two ways about that.

The operative word here is --->want<---

Nobody is gifting the world with their progeny, or creating kids to keep the species alive. Not cognitively anyway and they certainly aren't worried about who will pay taxes. Nor have I said (on this thread anyway) that the continuation of humanity should be halted (despite our very real detrimental effect on our planet and each other) and that's all really beside the point.

My point about WANTING to HAVE a child being a selfish act was in response to another poster who said that she believed that not having kids was selfish and I believe that the opposite is more the case. That doesn't mean I think it's "bad" or "wrong". Just that it's born (pardon the pun) out of a selfish desire.

I must say I'M confused at how many people are confused at the statement. :pac: It's really quite simple.

No its not that simple.. you are making an extremely obtuse point. You equate any 'want' with being selfish? Well surely 'wanting' to not have kids is just as selfish? Do we distinguish between want and need to determine what is or isn't selfish? What if I said I needed to have kids just like I need food water and air which are basic biological objectives for any animal? Does that still make me selfish? Surely when talking about selfishness you need to understand the motivation behind the desire before one can determine whether it is a selfish act or not. Otherwise everything is a selfish act which makes the argument pointless and circular. So no its not simple and its a bit of a moot point either way

Mr. teddywinkles

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's a slight but important difference from your point you were making earlier, where you were suggesting that other people who are not you, wouldn't know until they had children whether they wanted them or not.

You didn't know, for yourself is the key point there. Other people are saying that they are sure with their decision that they don't want children, and that's what they have decided, for themselves.


Reminds me of those kind of people who used tell me when my wife was expecting our first child - "Oh you'll want a house for him now", and as soon as he was born - "Are you going to have another, you'll have to give him a playmate!"...

People mapping out my life for me according to their standards. I put up with that shìte when I was a child, because I had to.

As an adult with my own mind and capable of making decisions for myself? Not so much

No difference with the point I was making.
I just don't rule out possibilities in my life outright from get go like some posters here. No ya cant undo having kids when you have them but ya live with it and get on with it. Not telling anyone do anything.
The title here is why do people want to have kids.
In my case it makes me happy and I enjoy making my kids happy.
What's the purpose of this thread again?
Right lets start a thread why do people decide outright to not have kids.

Might help me understand them

KP81

When I had my kid the thought crossed my mind: Now I can die

CarpeDiem85

KP81 wrote: »

When I had my kid the thought crossed my mind: Now I can die

I was like, I need to outlive her and protect her forever!

Cold War Kid

I don't have any major desire to have children. That ad for babywipes someone mentioned - the little baby in it is just delectable, I rewind the ad it's that cute, but I still don't know if I want my own baby, since other aspects of parenting don't appeal to me. If it happened, I'm sure I would be delighted and would soldier on and cherish the positives, but never had a major urge.

I don't think people feel or should feel the way I do though - that's just a bizarre outlook! Plenty of people genuinely want to start a family, nothing to do with social pressure or whatever, they just want a family! It's weird to find that so difficult to believe.

Cienciano

OldNotWIse wrote: »

There's an ad on at the moment for baby wipes and the tiny baby in that does make me want to have kids. The thing must be no more than a week old! And he's snuggled into the actress (who I presume is his mammy) like a little angel. I have to turn up the volume on the TV when it comes on because the sound of my biological clock drowns out everything else!

I have 2 kids and my wife is the exact same with that ad!

OldNotWIse

Playboy wrote: »

Not sure what I'm supposed to respond to other than the typo? Nothing that you said has anything to do with my post

Response is not mandatory.

OldNotWIse

Playboy wrote: »

I think you are a bit confused about Dawkins with that comparison lol? His early scientific work to which I referred is very highly regarded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

To the rest of your post I'm not really sure how you landed on that from I said. Yes wanting to raise children who will contribute to society is an aim for lots of parents? I dont understand how can you claim it wouldnt be, who wouldnt want their child to be someone who made some amazing scientific discovery or win a Nobel Prize?

Yes I read the book. There is a day of my life I will never get back I am sure it is highly regarded by some. I regard it too...as a pile of shít, as is my right.

And yes I believe claiming that the desire to have kids stems solely from a desire to heal the world is also a pile of shít, as is also my right.

Let us not deliberately blur the lines bewtween procreating for the sole purpose of saving the planet and wanting your child to achieve great things in life - I am without a doubt that this is everything a parent wants for their child - but that doesn't mean it was their sole reason for having them.

ps if you are so inclined, have a look at the God Delusion - more of the same...if you like that kind of thing

OldNotWIse

What about people who have one or two kids, and would really love to have more but dont because they simply don't have the means. I think this is a very selfless thing to do. They have kids, so they "have the t shirt" so to speak, they know what they are in for and they really want a bigger family but because of work/financial committments they choose not to. I know a lot of people like this, and I think it is a very responsbile and selfless decision.

eisenberg1

KP81 wrote: »

When I had my kid the thought crossed my mind: Now I can die

Straight away?

OldNotWIse

eisenberg1 wrote: »

Straight away?

Probably after the first week of no sleep

Playboy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Yes I read the book. There is a day of my life I will never get back I am sure it is highly regarded by some. I regard it too...as a pile of shít, as is my right.

And yes I believe claiming that the desire to have kids stems solely from a desire to heal the world is also a pile of shít, as is also my right.

Let us not deliberately blur the lines bewtween procreating for the sole purpose of saving the planet and wanting your child to achieve great things in life - I am without a doubt that this is everything a parent wants for their child - but that doesn't mean it was their sole reason for having them.

ps if you are so inclined, have a look at the God Delusion - more of the same...if you like that kind of thing

Huh? Who says the only reason they have kids is because they want them to save the planet? Who are you arguing with? You seem to take bits of a post out of context and use it to argue a point that no one is arguing. What a waste of time.

And tbh I dont know what you are on about re Dawkins. What has the God Delusion got to do with The Selfish Gene.. one was the first book he wrote and the other one of his last... that is about the only thing they have in common. Do you disagree with the main thesis in the Selfish Gene? If so why... its a bit strange to consider a seminal book in our understanding of biology as a "pile of ****e"? I'm not disputing your right to believe whatever nonsense you want to believe... feel free by all means.

Porkpie

I think most women want kids whereas the majority of blokes aren't really bothered. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the impression I get. I certainly don't want kids, too much hassle, too expensive.

eviltwin

Porkpie wrote: »

I think most women want kids whereas the majority of blokes aren't really bothered. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the impression I get. I certainly don't want kids, too much hassle, too expensive.

Not sure that's true. Maybe it seems that way because women have a much smaller window of opportunity to have children.