Vegan Ireland

azqaz

WesternZulu wrote: »

Rather than listening to anecdotal evidence, here is a recently published peer reviewed paper comparing carnivorous and vegetarian diets which states the following:



[removed link, new user]

In terms of the environmental impact to go veggie/vegan...grassland that is used for livestock production more often than not takes place in less favourable areas that are not suitable for much else besides grass.

Livestock convert this grass, a low value cellulose product which is inedible to humans, into a high value product that can be consumed by humans.

Grasslands sequester carbon as well, and this carbon is lost when ploughed...so tillage based systems do not provide the came capacity in terms of carbon storage.

It's not as black and white as some vegans or veggies would like you to believe.

The study specifically points out a few things specifically in its "limitations".


1) Its grouping "vegetarian", consisted of vegans, vegetarians who consume milk eggs & faux-vegetarians who follow a mediterannian diet by consuming fish
2) "no statements can be made whether the poorer health in vegetarians are caused by dietary habit, or if they consume this diet due to poorer health status"
3) "we cannot give any inforamation regarding long term consequences of consuming a special diet nor concerning its mortality rates"
4) Subjective bias by the test subjects to report their eating behaviour
5) The study failed to account for nutritional components of the peoples diet ie how much carbs & fats etc were consumed. A fairly significant aspect of any health debate surrounding eating meat or plant based diets.

As such, this type of study falls into the typical problem of epidemiological studies & why they are regarded as poor studies to draw conclusions from. They cannot limit variable factors & show causations.

azqaz

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

I deal with animals hands on regularly on our family farm. You can tell instantly if an animal is content, stressed, in pain etc. I'm sure you have had some dealing with dogs, cats etc and you could tell when they were happy or not. Its no different with animals like cows, sheep etc.

I am certain the the vast majority of farm animals in Ireland (and Europe for that matter) are treated very well, there will be some exceptions but that's no reason to stop farming. Does a few dogs being mistreated mean nobody should be allowed to have a dog?

The fact of the matter is, with the exception of cows & sheep fit for consumption whos diet is of grassland areas. The majority of animals in Ireland are raised in such a standard, that would be against most peoples expectations of basic animal welfare.

Chickens (both consumed for meat & eggs) & pigs which account for the majority of animals slaughtered, are overwhelmingly raised in intensive farming systems in Ireland. Or as others would call them "battery farms". The welfare laws & regulations for these farming systems is poor, which can be found by a simple search on welfare regulations from irish government sites & documentation on how to deal with problems arising from intensive farming stress in the animal. It is a necessary extension for producing cheap meat, which some people both meat eaters & non-meat eaters may find problem with.

celica00

"The link between animal protein and cancer has been known for a decade, but it has been ignored by the medical profession which still relies on surgery, radiotherapy and chemotherapy to fight the disease. "


This is true and not sure in term of cancer but when I stopped with diary products (not 100% but 98% by now and being a vegetarian for way longer before that), I saw some awesome changes, the skin alone cleared up a lot.

Besides that, if you actually research the whole lot, you will see how beneficial it is and that all the massive companies have basically their fingers in the game..therefore the ignoring part of the health benefits.
People simply don't know and should be more open minded for their own AND animals sake like!

celica00

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

I deal with animals hands on regularly on our family farm. You can tell instantly if an animal is content, stressed, in pain etc. I'm sure you have had some dealing with dogs, cats etc and you could tell when they were happy or not. Its no different with animals like cows, sheep etc.

I am certain the the vast majority of farm animals in Ireland (and Europe for that matter) are treated very well, there will be some exceptions but that's no reason to stop farming. Does a few dogs being mistreated mean nobody should be allowed to have a dog?

In Ireland it is way better, you are right, but in all other European countries it is a DISASTER!!!
Do a bit of research, especially around middle Europe. Most of those cows for example won't even see day light in their whole life.
FYI

Lau2976

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

Look farming isn't perfect around the world and there are many practices I do disagree with but most of what you mentioned aren't an issue, for instance calves on dairy farms are still given the natural milk just by bucket and lots are sold to beef farms to put with a cow who lost her calf, we buy one or two calves from dairy farms almost every year if we lose one or two of our own. I still don't see the issue with artificial insemination how would it give mental strain to an animal, they don't even know what's happening and it's not a painful process.

Fur farms are not for comparison with normal farming imo.

To answer your question in almost all instance bar a small number id prefer to be an animal fed and watered but heading for slaughter (as Id never know I was) than be a human starving.

I would almost agree if calf's milked first and then humans took the remains but we don't, we take what we want and then give the animal just enough to not be hungry.

Artificial insemination can occur when the cow is unprepared for pregnancy. And even if it is done in an appropriate time frame, it's unnatural and animals are unable to consent.

So we're going to ignore a massive issue because it's convenient?

I guess that's just a matter of opinion but I'd rather be able to try to defend myself then live in ignorance.

loveisdivine

Its funny how people always shout "rashers tho" as their first response to not eating meat and then bang on about how different Ireland is with regards to animal welfare, when in fact pigs are raised terribly in Ireland. Majority of pigs reared in Ireland spend all of their miserable lives on concrete.

Lau2976

Lau2976 wrote: »

Artificial insemination can occur when the cow is unprepared for pregnancy. And even if it is done in an appropriate time frame, it's unnatural and animals are unable to consent.

How can it occur if they are unprepared the cow has to be in the right part of her cycle in order to get in calf. If she were in a field at the same time with a bull then she would be naturally inseminated but for various reasons AI is preferred by some farmers. We have a bull by the way, we don't use AI.

It may not be natural but that's not really an issue as its not harming the animal nor does it lead to unnatural results. Neutering pets is not natural either yet its hugely encouraged by animal lovers.

El_Dangeroso

loveisdivine wrote: »

Its funny how people always shout "rashers tho" as their first response to not eating meat and then bang on about how different Ireland is with regards to animal welfare, when in fact pigs are raised terribly in Ireland. Majority of pigs reared in Ireland spend all of their miserable lives on concrete.

It's also funny that some veg*ns assume that if you eat meat you must automatically support those practices.

I eat very little pork and chicken but what I do eat is high welfare and free range.

Lau2976

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

How can it occur if they are unprepared the cow has to be in the right part of her cycle in order to get in calf. If she were in a field at the same time with a bull then she would be naturally inseminated but for various reasons AI is preferred by some farmers. We have a bull by the way, we don't use AI.

It may not be natural but that's not really an issue as its not harming the animal nor does it lead to unnatural results. Neutering pets is not natural either yet its hugely encouraged by animal lovers.

Many farmers continue with multiple attempts if the first is unsuccessful. Just because a female is able to get pregnant does not mean there body is prepared for that strain again. I'm confused as to why you pointed your own practices out?

I don't believe in animal neutering. And it's not doing any harm that we know of.

Lau2976

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

It's also funny that some veg*ns assume that if you eat meat you must automatically support those practices.

I eat very little pork and chicken but what I do eat is high welfare and free range.

Meat eaters support this practice by creating demand.

cormie

Sam Kade wrote: »

How would you know which apple is which?

To avoid a spiralling discussion, let's just say you were the only person in charge of their growth and harvesting.

El_Dangeroso

Lau2976 wrote: »

Meat eaters support this practice by creating demand.

That makes no sense to me, please explain how my buying high welfare meat creates demand for low-welfare meat.

Lau2976

Lau2976 wrote: »

Many farmers continue with multiple attempts if the first is unsuccessful. Just because a female is able to get pregnant does not mean there body is prepared for that strain again. I'm confused as to why you pointed your own practices out?

Just like a bull will ask the cow if she is mentally ready to get into calf :rolleyes:.

People haven't a clue.

5live

Lau2976 wrote: »

I would almost agree if calf's milked first and then humans took the remains but we don't, we take what we want and then give the animal just enough to not be hungry.

Artificial insemination can occur when the cow is unprepared for pregnancy. And even if it is done in an appropriate time frame, it's unnatural and animals are unable to consent.

So we're going to ignore a massive issue because it's convenient?

I guess that's just a matter of opinion but I'd rather be able to try to defend myself then live in ignorance.

In order of the above.

The calf is fed enough milk to support body maintenance and a growth rate of c.1kg a day for a period of 6-8 weeks when the calf is consuming enough feed and is able to digest that food well enough to cease milk consumption. More can be fed and the calf may drink more but the greater the level of milk fed, the greater the risk of digestive disturbance and sick and dying animals. This rate of feed is required for the female animals to reach an adequate weight(300-330kgs) to become pregnant and be of an adequate size to be able to calve with minimal intervention. What you seem to be advocating by looking for ad-lib milk consumption will increase the rate of digestive disturbance and mortality and can also lead to the production of cows with poorer milk yields due to fat build up in the udder? You may not appreciate it but there is a reason foe the controlled feed rates of animals on farms.

Artificial Insemination(AI) occurs when the animal shows heat, ie the readiness to become pregnant. It is utterly pointless using AI on a cow unless her reproductive system and hormonal levels are correct and i don't know of one farmer who would spend 30-50 euros using AI on a cow that hadn't a good chance of becoming pregnant. As for consent, well that is a moot point. If a cow doesn't consent to AI by going in calf then she will be culled and enter the food chain at an appropriate time.

Not sure what 'massive issue' you are referring to.

As for living in ignorance, see the above paragraphs for education.

FluffTheDog

WesternZulu wrote: »

Rather than listening to anecdotal evidence, here is a recently published peer reviewed paper comparing carnivorous and vegetarian diets which states the following:



(study)

In terms of the environmental impact to go veggie/vegan...grassland that is used for livestock production more often than not takes place in less favourable areas that are not suitable for much else besides grass.

Livestock convert this grass, a low value cellulose product which is inedible to humans, into a high value product that can be consumed by humans.

Grasslands sequester carbon as well, and this carbon is lost when ploughed...so tillage based systems do not provide the came capacity in terms of carbon storage.

It's not as black and white as some vegans or veggies would like you to believe.

Most vegetarian diets include a lot of eggs and dairy. Even more than "omnivorous" diets.

Vegan diet completely different.

FluffTheDog

azqaz wrote: »

The fact of the matter is, with the exception of cows & sheep fit for consumption whos diet is of grassland areas. The majority of animals in Ireland are raised in such a standard, that would be against most peoples expectations of basic animal welfare.

Chickens (both consumed for meat & eggs) & pigs which account for the majority of animals slaughtered, are overwhelmingly raised in intensive farming systems in Ireland. Or as others would call them "battery farms". The welfare laws & regulations for these farming systems is poor, which can be found by a simple search on welfare regulations from irish government sites & documentation on how to deal with problems arising from intensive farming stress in the animal. It is a necessary extension for producing cheap meat, which some people both meat eaters & non-meat eaters may find problem with.

Also, what do people even think happens to male chicks???!

What I don't understand is that there are plenty of healthy vegans out there who are absolutely thriving, why don't people just look at the results instead of arguing back and forth. For every study out there, a contradictory study can be found so why bother. Just look at the healthy people.

*And yes I am aware there are healthy non-vegans and unhealthy vegans, but for a minority, vegans seem to be very healthy in general.

Lau2976

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

That makes no sense to me, please explain how my buying high welfare meat creates demand for low-welfare meat.

It doesn't matter what type of meatypu buy, the demand for meat drives the industry. Just as the demand for cigarettes drives the demand for black market cigarettes.

Although you may not consume THAT type of product, for every one of you there is others who consume that product. Not eating meat lowers the demand for all meat and thus lowers the demand for low quality meat.

Lau2976

Lau2976 wrote: »

It doesn't matter what type of meatypu buy, the demand for meat drives the industry. Just as the demand for cigarettes drives the demand for black market cigarettes.

Although you may not consume THAT type of product, for every one of you there is others who consume that product. Not eating meat lowers the demand for all meat and thus lowers the demand for low quality meat.

This argument falls down everywhere.

A simple analogy would be that people who buy cars do not increase demand for bicycles.

Both are modes of transport.

Lau2976

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

Just like a bull will ask the cow if she is mentally ready to get into calf :rolleyes:.

You'll see I said that the cows body physically wasn't able for pregnancy, not mentally, if you had read my post properly.

Farmers continue to attempt to impregnate a cow even if their body has rejected. Bulls do this fewer times.

People haven't a clue.

Clearly :rolleyes:

Magico Gonzalez

Wouldn't go vegetarian, but I do make an effort to vary the meat I eat between pork, beef and chicken. I also have around 2 days a week where I dont eat meat.

What the whole farting cows story omits the fact that the oft quoted study hightlights that the trend is focused on cattle production in the developing world and not beef produced in the developed world. If we ate (globally) a more varied source of animal protein the problem would not be as pronounced.

Lau2976

Lau2976 wrote: »

Farmers continue to attempt to impregnate a cow even if their body has rejected. Bulls do this fewer times.

Do they? Have you ever watched a bull tracking a cow in heat? They are pretty determined...

Kovu

Lau2976 wrote: »

You'll see I said that the cows body physically wasn't able for pregnancy, not mentally, if you had read my post properly.

Farmers continue to attempt to impregnate a cow even if their body has rejected. Bulls do this fewer times.

LOL. You've never seen a bull after a cow then.
It's a lot safer on the cow to AI her, there isn't 1 tonne of sexually frustrated beef trying to jump on her.

El_Dangeroso

Lau2976 wrote: »

It doesn't matter what type of meatypu buy, the demand for meat drives the industry. Just as the demand for cigarettes drives the demand for black market cigarettes.

Although you may not consume THAT type of product, for every one of you there is others who consume that product. Not eating meat lowers the demand for all meat and thus lowers the demand for low quality meat.

There's so much logical error in the above post I don't know where to start.

If anything a bigger market for high welfare meat makes that more likely to be the standard and thus raise welfare standards across the board.

A classic example of this is cage egg farming, it was the demand for cage free eggs from consumers that drove their eventual ban in the EU.

Meat producers don't give a crap what vegans think because they are not a paying customer. They listen to people who demand higher welfare meat because it affects their bottom line.

5live

Lau2976 wrote: »

You'll see I said that the cows body physically wasn't able for pregnancy, not mentally, if you had read my post properly.

Farmers continue to attempt to impregnate a cow even if their body has rejected. Bulls do this fewer times.



Clearly :rolleyes:

What?

A farmer will AI a cow on heat once, sometimes twice to fixed time AI. She will normally get a maximum of three sessions of AI over 6 weeks (3 heats) and then will be left with a bull for 6 weeks. If she isn't in calf at that time, her calving period will not coincide with maximum grass availability and will increasr the workload on the farm for an animal that is, to all effects, sub-fertile. She will be culled from the herd and replaced with an animal that will become pregnant.

Farmers don't impregnate a cow. The semen from the AI man or bull will do that. If the cow becomes impregnated then everyone is happy, including the cow. If their 'body rejects' being impregnated then the animal is either infertile or sub fertile. This is not an animal that a farmer would breed from as fertility is highly heritable ie fertile animals beget fertile animals and infertile animals beget infertile animals. As it costs in excess of 1500 euro to rear an animal to the stage of calving, it is in both the farmers and cows interest to get the cow pregnant. As such, the farmer makes every effort to ensure the cow is of the correct age and weight and fatness to both calve with the minimum of difficulty and that involution of the uterus(cleansing of the womb) occurs at an appropriate time and speed to get the animal pregnant again.

TBH, the bull has sweet feck all to do with the cow becoming pregnant other than the supply of semen. The amount of attention the cow gets from the bull is dependent on the quantity of other animals in the correct stage of the fertility cycle to become pregnant. Sometimes if only she is in heat she will get served 15-20 times in one day to and if others are also at the correct stage she might get served only once.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with that issue, tbh.

Dan_Solo

FluffTheDog wrote: »

*And yes I am aware there are healthy non-vegans and unhealthy vegans, but for a minority, vegans seem to be very healthy in general.

Science just died. Right there. You saw it guys.

Philo Beddoe

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

Do they? Have you ever watched a bull tracking a cow in heat? They are pretty determined...

Omg, bulls are like, such noble creatures, with natural instincts for these things. So much better than our human science and logic.

dr.bollocko

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/vegetables-force-emergency-landing-of-jet-in-shannon-1.2037444

Vegeterrorism.

A fire alarm activated by vegetables forced the crew of a transatlantic passenger jet to declare an emergency and divert to Shannon Airport.