Vegan Ireland

anncoates

My wife is a veggie so I end up eating vegetarian stuff about 80-90% of the time at home. I wouldn't like to cut out meat completely, but am happy to eat as little as I do.

Couldn't face being a vegan though: it sounds like more a cult than a diet sometimes.

AnimalChin

Garlicrosemary wrote: »

I'd doubt it's the meat that was causing the issues unless you were cooking it in vegetable oils. Have you improved your diet and lifestyle in general since making the decision to remove meat?

I have improved in general.

I just found I'd get bad reflux/indigestion after eating meat. Also, I've gout so eating less meat seems to be beneficial (of course, there are plenty of other things that contribute).

Lia_lia

I'm a vegetarian and was brought up as one. Ate meat on and off for a few years, but don't now.

A friend of mine was seeing a vegan there for a while. She never stopped going on about it. Mainly about cancer and other health issues. Very preachy preachy! And then my friend said to me one day "you're a vegetarian but you never talk about it?" it's not a huge thing in my life. I just don't eat meat.

Curry Addict

veganism and vegies aside, there is real scientific evidence to support the theory that animal proteins consumed above a certain amount daily, cause cancer. What we learned growing up about food is very different from the reality. Its relatively new findings from studies in the 80s and published in the 90s.

As it goes against a lot of the traditional leanings about food it is slow to proliferate. But over the next few decades we will see a huge but slow shift away from animal protein foods.

this is the study -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Cornell%E2%80%93Oxford_Project

here is the published material -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

a good documentary to watch which details it all very nicely is called "Forks over knives"


I am not a vegy or a vegan but this stuff is food for thought!

El_Dangeroso

Curry Addict wrote: »

veganism and vegies aside, there is real scientific evidence to support the theory that animal proteins consumed above a certain amount daily, cause cancer. What we learned growing up about food is very different from the reality. Its relatively new findings from studies in the 80s and published in the 90s.

As it goes against a lot of the traditional leanings about food it is slow to proliferate. But over the next few decades we will see a huge but slow shift away from animal protein foods.

this is the study -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Cornell%E2%80%93Oxford_Project

here is the published material -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

a good documentary to watch which details it all very nicely is called "Forks over knives"


I am not a vegy or a vegan but this stuff is food for thought!

There's really not any evidence that animal protein causes cancer, in fact if you properly analyse the China study data with multivariate logistic regression, animal protein becomes protective.

Curry Addict

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

There's really not any evidence that animal protein causes cancer, in fact if you properly analyse the China study data with multivariate logistic regression, animal protein becomes protective.

the study clearly shows that if you eat more than a certain amount of animal and dairy protein daily, your risk of developing cancer is hugely increased.

OK i haven't properly analyzed the China study data with multivariate logistic regression but i would be really interested to see your analysis?

AnimalChin

The China study is usually referred to by veggies/vegans, but hasn't it be completely debunked?

I can't remember exactly, but I read about how it was debunked a good while ago now...

Foxhound38

cormie wrote: »

I just saw this article: http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/book-news/stop-feeding-your-cancer-dublin-doctor-shows-patients-how-to-beat-cancer-30804029.html

I've seen many similar claims around the net, but never from an Irish GP. Is the World and Ireland waking up to the possibility that consuming animal products may not be a wise choice or is this just another "quack" pushing an agenda?

Personally, it makes sense to me, not only for health but for the environment and obviously ethically too. I see far more positives than negatives of being vegan and try follow it as much as my will power will allow, that is until something delicious is put in front of me :pac:

I've been following a more plant based diet the last 3/4 years and I'm not sure is it a case of just discovering what's always been available, or is it actually becoming more of a widespread demand and thus more options available in the last few years?

So ignoring all the in your face activism, the judgemental and high horse disapproval of anything animal, all the unhealthy vegetarians and vegans who think eating processed tofu and houmous is an adequate diet, and all the other associated negative stereotypes, would you consider a more plant, nut, seed and legume based diet given so many are thriving on just that, with the possibility of improving your health and making a more positive impact on the World as a whole?

Mind that lifejacket

Garlicrosemary

AnimalChin wrote: »

The China study is usually referred to by veggies/vegans, but hasn't it be completely debunked?

I can't remember exactly, but I read about how it was debunked a good while ago now...

Yep, speaking as someone with a degree in Mathematics I can tell you that you don't need a degree in mathematics to see that the statistical analysis used in the China study and it's interpretation is deeply flawed.

Curry Addict

Garlicrosemary wrote: »

Yep, speaking as someone with a degree in Mathematics I can tell you that you don't need a degree in mathematics to see that the statistical analysis used in the China study and it's interpretation is deeply flawed.

i would love to see some reference for this, i love my dairy products

Curry Addict

Curry Addict wrote: »

i would love to see some reference for this, i love my dairy products

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-china-study-revisited/

LoonyLovegood

I don't eat a huge amount of meat, but I'm nowhere near vegetarian levels. When I'm in my own home it's mostly fruit and veg, because meat is expensive. When I'm at my mam's, it's not a meal unless it's meat and two veg. It's nice having the few days without it though.

rainbow kirby

I was a veggie (lacto-ovo vegetarian) for a couple of years when I was younger - I'm much healthier on an omnivore's diet though. It's just something that doesn't work too well for me, I seem to do well on quite a lot of protein and that's hard to get on a veg*n diet.

kylith

cormie wrote: »

... would you consider a more plant, nut, seed and legume based diet given so many are thriving on just that, with the possibility of improving your health and making a more positive impact on the World as a whole?

Just out of curiosity brought about by this thread I did a little googling and it seems that until the 1920s when the traditional way of living died out Inuits had very, very low cancer rates, and they ate pretty much nothing but red meat, seeds and nuts being difficult to come across when there's 3' of snow on the ground. So there you are, eat only red meat to avoid getting cancer.

Tar.Aldarion

Incident rates of cancer are lower in vegetarians than meaters, and lowest in vegans. There may be a number of reasons why but I will hazard that diet is definitely one of them in my view. I wouldn't point to the china study (there are a million criticisms and criticisms of the criticisms at this stage.), I'd point to the papers in journals on cancer, and the meta-analysis of them, peer reviewed research. If diet is a factor, personally I'd be taking the normal treatment as well and would think both diet and medical treatment would be optimal.

Interslice

A vegan diet of pesticide riddled veg is just as bad as a meat/dairy/eggs diet full of antibiotics and other chemicals form fertilizers etc. in silage and grass. Fighting amongst ourselfves over meat vs. veg while the pharma/chem companies sit back and laugh.

An organically grown diet mixed with the right combination of meat/veg/ dairy to suit your own body is the best IMO. No reason why everyone is this country can't be on such a diet. Humans are omnivours your own particular set of genetics will determine which foods suit you best. Ireland has very high levels of gluten intolerance compared to lactose intolerance relative to other parts of europe for example.

TLDR; Regarding increased cancer rates it's what in the food we eat, not what food we eat that's the problem IMO.

El_Dangeroso

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Incident rates of cancer are lower in vegetarians than meaters, and lowest in vegans. There may be a number of reasons why but I will hazard that diet is definitely one of them in my view. I wouldn't point to the china study (there are a million criticisms and criticisms of the criticisms at this stage.), I'd point to the papers in journals on cancer, and the meta-analysis of them, peer reviewed research. If diet is a factor, personally I'd be taking the normal treatment as well and would think both diet and medical treatment would be optimal.

You have to factor in that vegetarians and vegans are a LOT more health conscious than the general population. If you compare the health of health-conscious omnivores to vegatarians, differences in health outcomes disappear.

Also in the general population, pescetarians live longer and tend to be healthier overall than vegetarians, which tells you there is probably something in fish that is missing from a vegetarian diet.

Interslice

Interslice wrote: »

A vegan diet of pesticide riddled veg is just as bad as a meat/dairy/eggs diet full of antibiotics and other chemicals form fertilizers etc. in silage and grass. Fighting amongst ourselfves over meat vs. veg while the pharma/chem companies sit back and laugh.

An organically grown diet mixed with the right combination of meat/veg/ dairy to suit your own body is the best IMO. No reason why everyone is this country can't be on such a diet. Humans are omnivours your own particular set of genetics will determine which foods suit you best. Ireland has very high levels of gluten intolerance compared to lactose intolerance relative to other parts of europe for example.

TLDR; Regarding increased cancer rates it's what in the food we eat, not what food we eat that's the problem IMO.

More debunking. Though I prefer small scale farming and sometimes even organic personally, it's for ethical reasons as opposed to health reason.

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/science-scope/organic-food-isnt-actually-any-better-for-you-and-its-way-more-expensive/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19465692

http://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2012/09/little-evidence-of-health-benefits-from-organic-foods-study-finds.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/is-organic-better-for-your-health-a-look-at-milk-meat-eggs-produce-and-fish/2014/04/07/036c654e-a313-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

darkpagandeath

Good luck steering clear of pork products There in everything from make-up to medication to cloths.

Interslice

Deleted User wrote: »

More debunking. Though I prefer small scale farming and sometimes even organic personally, it's for ethical reasons as opposed to health reason.

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/science-scope/organic-food-isnt-actually-any-better-for-you-and-its-way-more-expensive/

There's certified organic and organic as in the permaculture type, which is more what I was getting at.
From that study

While researchers found that organic produce is 30 percent less likely to be contaminated with pesticides than conventional fruits and vegetables, organic foods are not necessarily 100 percent free of pesticides

So organic isn't really that organic.


Be carefull about reading 'published' science(particularly a journalist's take on it). Saying this as a scientist!

A quick scan of the methodology.

the researchers sifted through thousands of papers and identified 237 of the most relevant to analyze

17 studies (six of which were randomized clinical trials) of populations consuming organic and conventional diets

So six actual decent studies...

There were no long-term studies of health outcomes of people consuming organic versus conventionally produced food; the duration of the studies involving human subjects ranged from two days to two years.

All you can take from that release is that certified organic isn't really that much more organic and there have been no long term studies anyway so it's guesswork as to benifits of conventional versus certified organic.

Interslice

Interslice wrote: »

..
All you can take from that release is that certified organic isn't really that much more organic and there have been no long term studies anyway so it's guesswork as to benefits of conventional versus certified organic.

That's all I took from it

cormie

Two apples side by side, one has definitely been sprayed and treated with chemicals, the other possibly not, everything else about them is the same, I won't be choosing the guaranteed sprayed one.

In order of preference when it comes to food it would be wild > organic > conventional > > > > >> > gm

--LOS--

I'm vegan but none of the poll options were relevant.

So apparently I'm a judgemental controlling knob, a cultist, a complete dullard to be around, constantly talking about my diet and pushing pseudo science on people and I'm crazy?

No, I'm just a normal person that took some time to educate myself on something that affects such a large part of our lives and made a choice, a conscious choice. The poll says it all really, most of you admit you wouldn't even consider it yet you have an opinion on something you know nothing about! You can't hope to have any kind of intelligible discussion in that case. If all you understand is offence and defence, what kind of discussion is there to be had here? Veganism is a moral and ethical argument and you can't counter a moral argument with something that has no moral basis like your love of rashers. That is neither funny nor respectable nor smart.

For those of you that voted you would not even consider it, realise then that your opinion is uninformed. Turning a blind eye is not making a choice. Don't you think something that is so integral to your lives is worth some consideration, if you think you love animals, then at least for their sake? So here's an idea.....take at least a week of your life and decide to be open to learning about veganism for that week or whatever time you allot. Watch movies/documentaries, read books, browse online, do some research basically, read the good and the bad but question everything. At least then you can make up your own mind, you can make an educated choice. Take some responsibility for yourself, it's not up to us take the burden for you. Then we might have something to discuss here.

Here's a list of movies to get you started..... http://www.imdb.com/list/ls058441962/

Btw I disagree with things in some of those movies, that's not the point, open your mind, do your research, make an informed choice.

I'm sorry OP but listing off the negative stereotypes in your opening post is only propagating those stereotypes, when they're just that, things which are untrue and unfair. Why the need to do that and also mention "quacks"? It only makes me question your intention, it seems purposely inflammatory. I would love to be able to address some of the things you bring up and others on this thread but it's almost impossible in this kind of environment.

Just to answer you on this point though...

is it a case of just discovering what's always been available, or is it actually becoming more of a widespread demand and thus more options available in the last few years?

Yes for me it is about discovering what's already there, because to be vegan and healthy is to eat more naturally, beans, grains, fruit, veg, this isn't new stuff. Best to stay away from processed foods like the shop bought fake meats and cheese, I like them an odd time though. I do make my own vegan cheese and other dairy and meat alternatives, but you can hardly claim those are processed, most of my food is homemade so I know exactly what's going into it. Not sure what you mean by 'processed tofu', tofu is just soy bean curd and hoummous is mostly chickpeas so you can hardly call it processed.

But yes it is also becoming a more widespread demand, the number of people adopting plant-based lifestyles is increasing exponentially, it will keep increasing, it has to because the alternatives are simply not sustainable! (have a watch of cowspiracy) So yes there are more options now for eating out, that will keep increasing.

Anyways I'm not going to be a punchbag for after hours, I did even hesitate to open this thread because it's like signing up to be bullied. I'd love to see some of you have the balls to say some of those things to my face! So if anyone is interested in any aspect of veganism or vegetarianism, the folks on the vegan and vegetarian forum are more than happy to help you. Personally I'm more than happy and willing to speak with people that are interested so you can message me if you like. I have dedicated time to learning about it and I'm still learning all the time so all I have to offer is the knowledge that I've acquired, at the least I can help point you in the right direction. Wanting to know is on you though! This thread is rife with myths and I would love to be able to address those but I'm only human and I have enough to deal with besides getting into arguments with people whose only desire is to win the internet. So I'm not going to get into the back and forth.

Great to see all of you that are making changes, never give up learning

Yurt2

--LOS-- wrote: »

So apparently I'm a judgemental

Let's take a look....

--LOS-- wrote: »

No, I'm just a normal person that took some time to educate myself

Implication that non vegans aren't educated on dietary and health issues.

--LOS-- wrote: »

yet you have an opinion on something you know nothing about!

Implication that non vegans are only such because we know nothing about veganism.

--LOS-- wrote: »

Veganism is a moral and ethical argument and you can't counter a moral argument with something that has no moral basis like your love of rashers. That is neither funny nor respectable nor smart.

Getting to the heart of the matter here... Veganism is a political stance on animals and an ethical code before you get into the health merits which are highly debatable. Just to be clear, I have no ethical quandry with eating sustainably produced meat or animal products. Humans have done so for thousands of years both for sustenance and for pleasure. It's been a crucial part of human evolution. I will not be preached at or moralized for doing so, which vegans frequently do.

--LOS-- wrote: »

realise then that your opinion is uninformed. Turning a blind eye is not making a choice.

Yet a again. an arrogant, smug and judgemental position. I've seen the literature and been made watch the docs and I've made my choice. I do not feel one twinge of guilt for eating animal products

--LOS-- wrote: »

Anyways I'm not going to be a punchbag for after hours, I did even hesitate to open this thread because it's like signing up to be bullied. I'd love to see some of you have the balls to say some of those things to my face!

Like yourself, I've told people I'm close to dial down the vegan propoganda. It occupies so much of their thoughtspace and they foist so many of their gurus and (unproven) health claims on people around them that it's not unreasonable to call it a cult like movement. As for claims of bullying, vegans I've noticed are not exactly kind to those that reject their teachings or to those who step outside the church and cease to be vegans for health reasons or merely a change in their ethical stance.

cormie

I think the reason I listed the stereotypes was to introduce the post in a way that would convey that you can still be interested and in favour of such a diet while meeting none of the stereotypes associated with it, to show that it's open to everyone and it's as simple as looking at what we constitute as food differently.

As I said, it makes sense to me, it's as simple as that, it doesn't mean you're anything other than the same person you were, just with a different diet choice.

By processed tofu, I just meant the likes of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu#Processed_tofu


With regard the quack comment, I actually regret linking to that article now and looking back, would have preferred to keep it a more generic topic on simply cutting down/out animal products, without associating it with claims of curing cancer as this could discredit the many benefits it has anyway.

sheesh

*serious reply Here

Veganism is ok but a guy who worked with my brother got osteoporosis by not doing it properly he wasn't getting enough calcium. the problem is men cannot recover from it like women can so now he is stuck with ****ty brittle bones.

If you are going to become a vegan you actually have to relearn how to create a balanced meal. and then make it interesting.

Alternatively just cut down on red meat and get some exercise. you'll be fine.

Remember if you are doing it for ethical reasons we have killed the concept of god so there is no right and wrong, eat babies if you think you will get away with it

Shenshen

Yurt! wrote: »

Let's take a look....

<snip>

I can't help noticing how you seem to have made an effort to cut out the bits making it clear only those people who chose the "wouldn't even consider it" option are being addressed.
And then you accuse the poster of arrogance for assuming that the people who said they wouldn't want to inform themselves as they wouldn't consider it anyway?
Is it arrogany to take others by their word?

kylith

Shenshen wrote: »

I can't help noticing how you seem to have made an effort to cut out the bits making it clear only those people who chose the "wouldn't even consider it" option are being addressed.
And then you accuse the poster of arrogance for assuming that the people who said they wouldn't want to inform themselves as they wouldn't consider it anyway?
Is it arrogany to take others by their word?

So it's ok to be judgemental of people who don't plan on cutting down their meat intake? A group which includes people like me who have eaten meat maybe two meals this week? Are you saying that I'm uneducated and know nothing about veganism and am therefore morally and ethically inferior to you?

Sam Kade

cormie wrote: »

Two apples side by side, one has definitely been sprayed and treated with chemicals, the other possibly not, everything else about them is the same, I won't be choosing the guaranteed sprayed one.

In order of preference when it comes to food it would be wild > organic > conventional > > > > >> > gm

How would you know which apple is which?

--LOS--

--LOS-- wrote: »

I Don't you think something that is so integral to your lives is worth some consideration, if you think you love animals, then at least for their sake?

Comments like this is why I struggle to be in the same room as a vegan sprouting their "opinion". Eating meat and loving animals are two totally different things. I love animals, have been around them all my life on the farm at home. They are treated better than a lot of humans in the world and never want for anything. I also love meat and would rarely have a meal without it and have no problem whatsoever with the humane slaughter of animals for consumption.

I'm looking forward to spending lots of time over Christmas out on the farm with the animals and Im also looking forward to having some of the full lamb that's sitting in our freezer.