Vegan Ireland

cormie

I just saw this article: http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/book-news/stop-feeding-your-cancer-dublin-doctor-shows-patients-how-to-beat-cancer-30804029.html

I've seen many similar claims around the net, but never from an Irish GP. Is the World and Ireland waking up to the possibility that consuming animal products may not be a wise choice or is this just another "quack" pushing an agenda?

Personally, it makes sense to me, not only for health but for the environment and obviously ethically too. I see far more positives than negatives of being vegan and try follow it as much as my will power will allow, that is until something delicious is put in front of me :pac:

I've been following a more plant based diet the last 3/4 years and I'm not sure is it a case of just discovering what's always been available, or is it actually becoming more of a widespread demand and thus more options available in the last few years?

So ignoring all the in your face activism, the judgemental and high horse disapproval of anything animal, all the unhealthy vegetarians and vegans who think eating processed tofu and houmous is an adequate diet, and all the other associated negative stereotypes, would you consider a more plant, nut, seed and legume based diet given so many are thriving on just that, with the possibility of improving your health and making a more positive impact on the World as a whole?

Sheeps

cormie wrote: »

I just saw this article: http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/book-news/stop-feeding-your-cancer-dublin-doctor-shows-patients-how-to-beat-cancer-30804029.html

I've seen many similar claims around the net, but never from an Irish GP. Is the World and Ireland waking up to the possibility that consuming animal products may not be a wise choice or is this just another "quack" pushing an agenda?

Personally, it makes sense to me, not only for health but for the environment and obviously ethically too. I see far more positives than negatives of being vegan and try follow it as much as my will power will allow, that is until something delicious is put in front of me :pac:

I've been following a more plant based diet the last 3/4 years and I'm not sure is it a case of just discovering what's always been available, or is it actually becoming more of a widespread demand and thus more options available in the last few years?

So ignoring all the in your face activism, the judgemental and high horse disapproval of anything animal, all the unhealthy vegetarians and vegans who think eating processed tofu and houmous is an adequate diet, and all the other associated negative stereotypes, would you consider a more plant, nut, seed and legume based diet given so many are thriving on just that, with the possibility of improving your health and making a more positive impact on the World as a whole?

If a vegan joins cross fit, which do they start yapping on about first?

Warper

Vegans are judgmental controlling knob heads

cormie

I'm guessing neither of you actually read the article or post and just posted your replies as soon as you saw the word vegan?

Sam Kade

The doc should change his own diet, he's an awful colour. Paper never refuses ink :rolleyes:

wonderfulname

One gp, 6 cancer survivors in 10 years... bet my gp has seen more than that!

There are arguments for cutting animal products from your diet, or cutting down on them, this is not one of them. If he had something valid, which others have had regarding meat consumption and cancer if you want to continue looking at that, he would get it published by a respected journal for the benefit of his profession, not as a self help book.

Tilly

We were only talking about him today in work. Apparently he told one of the girls in work mother that she was fine even tho she had gone back with the same complaint about a lump 3 times. Her mother had cancer and this quack had told her it was nothing to worry about. Not one test did he order. Thank god she got a second opinion.

Sheep Lover

Sheeps wrote: »

If a vegan joins cross fit, which do they start yapping on about first?

Their iPhone, usually.

mikom

cormie wrote: »

I just saw this article: http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/book-news/stop-feeding-your-cancer-dublin-doctor-shows-patients-how-to-beat-cancer-30804029.html

I've seen many similar claims around the net, but never from an Irish GP. Is the World and Ireland waking up to the possibility that consuming animal products may not be a wise choice or is this just another "quack" pushing an agenda?

Personally, it makes sense to me, not only for health but for the environment and obviously ethically too. I see far more positives than negatives of being vegan and try follow it as much as my will power will allow, that is until something delicious is put in front of me :pac:

I've been following a more plant based diet the last 3/4 years and I'm not sure is it a case of just discovering what's always been available, or is it actually becoming more of a widespread demand and thus more options available in the last few years?

So ignoring all the in your face activism, the judgemental and high horse disapproval of anything animal, all the unhealthy vegetarians and vegans who think eating processed tofu and houmous is an adequate diet, and all the other associated negative stereotypes, would you consider a more plant, nut, seed and legume based diet given so many are thriving on just that, with the possibility of improving your health and making a more positive impact on the World as a whole?

RASHERS.

Yurt2

Vegans are cultists and complete dullards to be around. Constantly talking about their diet and pushing their pseudo science on 'carnivores'.

AnonoBoy

Anyone who says that you should bypass traditional cancer treatments and follow their 'proven' cure exclusively (whether that be a vegan diet, prayer or some other quackery) should be viewed with huge amounts of scepticism.

Sure diet plays a large part but relying solely on salad to get rid of tumours in your body?

F*ck right off.

Tilly

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Anyone who says that you should bypass traditional cancer treatments and follow their 'proven' cure exclusively (whether that be a vegan diet, prayer or some other quackery) should be viewed with huge amounts of scepticism.

Sure diet plays a large part but relying solely on salad to get rid of tumours in your body?

F*ck right off.

you mean to tell me you don't believe in the powers of iceberg lettuce????

shruikan2553

If you have the cure for cancer and aren't getting published in a real medical thing then it's time to doubt you have a cure.

AnonoBoy

Tilly wrote: »

you mean to tell me you don't believe in the powers of iceberg lettuce????

I believe it can top off a bacon sandwich nicely, yes.

Arsemageddon

Another fine piece of journalism there from the Indo. Sad thing is some poor, sod is actually going to read this nonsense and in their desperation think it might save them.

What the good doctor has are a collection of anecdotes, if he could back up what he says with extensive peer reviewed scientific research then I could take him seriously. For the moment I think he's just a spoofer with a bit of a god complex talking a load of dangerous waffley boll0x.

jamezy

I know many non militant vegan and vegetarians. The really opened my eyes to how good Veggie/Vegan options can be. As a result i have cut down on the amount of meat i eat. The average western diet has too much meat anyway. Also vegan food can be really creative and is like more common foods, it can be really good as well as really ****e.

That been said I love meat and would not cut it out completely. I know where it comes from and it does not weigh on my conscience.


Really restrictive diets are generally not a good idea unless they are short term health/weight goals (excluding alergies)

Kovu

So if a strict vegan diet can cure cancer.......then vegans must also contain this power.


Save the veggies! Eat a vegan! :pac:

Duggy747

Article was written like he was Jesus, couldn't be any further up his hole if it tried.

Spotted the article was written by the same chap who gave the book a glowing review and throws a few snide remarks at conventional cancer treatments (chemo, surgery, etc.)

They stick with their surgery and radiotherapy and chemotherapy even though in many cases it either does not work or offers only limited time. They regard a dietary solution as simplistic or as flaky alternative medicine. What would a mere GP know? After all, they are the experts.

certifiedcrepe

How do you know if someone is vegan?

They'll tell you.

Badum-tish..

AdFundum

certifiedcrepe wrote: »

How do you know if someone is vegan?

They'll tell you.

Badum-tish..

That's actually true! I tell everyone I'm vegan - it just makes me feel so deliciously smug that I reckon I'll have to take up running also when the smugness high starts to wear thin.

I am also a scientist. The "plural of anecdote is not data" and 6 patients is an anecdote. In this case, establishing links requires a population study and 6 is not a population sample although molecular studies can get away with n=3 and a replicate (to be published). In any event, I don't put much stock into such things. I would hazard that it is impossible to "live scientifically" given that even in peer reviewed journals you will find evidence suggesting almost all possible outcomes given an intervention. So, I settle for living smugly - and it feels so, so good!

TheBeardedLady

Grrrr. Dangerous stuff. Basing science on case studies (even if they were cured, who's to say this diet was the cause?). Any self-respecting professional pushing stuff like this will allow their theory to be tested properly and peer reviewed. If it was any good, it wouldn't be published in a bloody self-help book.


The worst part of this is that people with cancer will read that article and opt for it. Completely irresponsible giving this man column inches.


This has fook all to do with your average vegan as I doubt most vegans would claim their diet alone cures cancer. This is the bolloxology of a man trying to get rich quick off the vulnerability of others. People of his ilk should be arrested.

iDave

You don't win friends with salad (or cure cancer)

The_Valeyard

cormie wrote: »

I'm guessing neither of you actually read the article or post and just posted your replies as soon as you saw the word vegan?

steak.

STEAK

STEAKKKKKK NOM NOM NOM NOM

-=al=-

jamezy wrote: »

I know many non militant vegan and vegetarians. The really opened my eyes to how good Veggie/Vegan options can be. As a result i have cut down on the amount of meat i eat. The average western diet has too much meat anyway. Also vegan food can be really creative and is like more common foods, it can be really good as well as really ****e.

That been said I love meat and would not cut it out completely. I know where it comes from and it does not weigh on my conscience.


Really restrictive diets are generally not a good idea unless they are short term health/weight goals (excluding alergies)

I'm quite similar to this myself and find that it's not so bad to cut down on the meat. I was never a big meat eater but I probably eat more fish now and mostly chicken otherwise + very little red meat... I have even been weened onto veggie sausages lately but I'd still have the odd rasher now and again! I'd miss meat completely if I gave it up but cutting down isn't so bad.

I've cut out a lot of stuff such as fast food, processed food, sugary snacks and drinks etc and cut down on the dairy while upping the fruit an veg intake along with seeds, berries and nuts. Nothing too fancy just some simple adjustments along with opting for the healthier alternative and not just eating something just for the sake of eating it.

I'm probably on my way to being one of those vegan douches :pac:


As for the article, I do have a friend of the family who went through and got over cancer treatment and is totally all about the vegan diet. It's a pretty interesting subject and it doesn't hurt to eat a bit better anyway

Grayson

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Another fine piece of journalism there from the Indo. Sad thing is some poor, sod is actually going to read this nonsense and in their desperation think it might save them.

What the good doctor has are a collection of anecdotes, if he could back up what he says with extensive peer reviewed scientific research then I could take him seriously. For the moment I think he's just a spoofer with a bit of a god complex talking a load of dangerous waffley boll0x.

It's really bad reporting but I think the last thing we'd accuse the Indo of is reporting.

There's a lot to be said for moving to a veggie diet or at least cutting down on meat. meat is incredibly carbon intensive to raise/grow. from an environmental stand point everyone could cut down on eating meat a bit and it would make a huge difference to the environment.

From a health point of view, once again people eat too much meat. It's be healthier to cut back or even give it up (only if you can manage to balance it though. I'm so crappy at dietary management that when I don't eat meat I'm eating a meat substitute).

I think eating an excessive amount of red meat has even been linked to cancer.

However saying a cures cancer? that's a load of bollocks.

Teyla Emmagan

If I get cancer I will try it. But there will be no preventary method veganism. Life is too short. I already find the woman in work with her weirdly skinny vegetarian 3 year old depressing enough.

Shenshen

I have been vegetarian for around 7 years now (my husband "converted" me ), but I have to say I find the article highly dubious.

If there is a well-known link between animal protein and cancer as claimed in the article, then by all means that need to be explored and studied. Though I can see it'll be difficult getting the funding for that, there's no interest group out there that would make money out of a potential positive result, and tons of interest groups that might end up losing out big time.

But a few anecdotal "miracles"? No, thanks. That's the same type of proof homeopaths have been pushing forward for decades, and doesn't prove anything at all.

kylith

While I accept that there are great benefits to be had by decreasing meat intake and consuming more fruit and veg I am highly dubious about a vegan diet. I think that any diet that necessitates taking supplements and which is completely impossible to follow eating only locally produced food is not a sustainable one.

BeerWolf

Western vegan diet? Feck off with that... but come an Indian vegetarian dish? Then sure! :pac:

Sam Kade

How will staying away from the demon protein cure all the other causes of cancer?

cormie

cormie wrote: »

I see far more positives than negatives

I'd struggle to come up with one positive and the negatives are vast. For one not eating meat or other dairy, that's a pretty massive negative for a meat and dairy lover like me that never has a meal without one or both. Then there is the damage it would do to agriculture if people turned vegan in large numbers, it would destroy the industry resulting in job losses in the industry and all related industries. Basically it would ruin the country and that only a small number of the vast array of negatives.

Meat FTW!!!

Shenshen

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

I'd struggle to come up with one positive and the negatives are vast. For one not eating meat or other dairy, that's a pretty massive negative for a meat and dairy lover like me that never has a meal without one or both. Then there is the damage it would do to agriculture if people turned vegan in large numbers, it would destroy the industry resulting in job losses in the industry and all related industries. Basically it would ruin the country and that only a small number of the vast array of negatives.

Meat FTW!!!

Personal preferences aside, surely it would be a massive bonus to agriculture? The amount of additional fruit, vegetables and cereals that would need to be grown to cover demand would surely be welcome by farmers?

After all, there is far less cost and effort involved in growing food directly for consumption than there would be in growing food for consumption by animals first before then consuming that animal?

cloud493

Oh vegans. You guys are crazy.

kylith

Shenshen wrote: »

Personal preferences aside, surely it would be a massive bonus to agriculture? The amount of additional fruit, vegetables and cereals that would need to be grown to cover demand would surely be welcome by farmers?

After all, there is far less cost and effort involved in growing food directly for consumption than there would be in growing food for consumption by animals first before then consuming that animal?

I guess he's talking about the fact that hundreds of thousands of dairy and meat animals would have to be slaughtered to make way for crops and with no-one to buy the meat the farmers wouldn't get paid for any of these thousands of animals, leading to the farmers experiencing poverty and unable to afford to buy the seed and machinery necessary to grow crops, providing that their land is even suitable for arable farming in the first place.

YFlyer

kylith wrote: »

I guess he's talking about the fact that hundreds of thousands of dairy and meat animals would have to be slaughtered to make way for crops and with no-one to buy the meat the farmers wouldn't get paid for any of these thousands of animals, leading to the farmers experiencing poverty and unable to afford to buy the seed and machinery necessary to grow crops, providing that their land is even suitable for arable farming in the first place.

Has society ever made such drastic changes outside wartime?

kylith

YFlyer wrote: »

Has society ever made such drastic changes outside wartime?

If we all went vegan tomorrow it'd have to.

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

Personal preferences aside, surely it would be a massive bonus to agriculture? The amount of additional fruit, vegetables and cereals that would need to be grown to cover demand would surely be welcome by farmers?

After all, there is far less cost and effort involved in growing food directly for consumption than there would be in growing food for consumption by animals first before then consuming that animal?

Dairy is the most profitable part of the farming industry so getting rid of that certainly would not be welcome. Then there is the fact that a lot of Irish farms are unsuitable for growing fruit, veg and grains due to the type of land or the size of the farm (not big enough to grow enough to be profitable). The majority of grain and fruit and veg are grown in the east and south of the country for a reason. Also beef farmers, sheep farmers and dairy farmers don't want to be tillage farmers, animals are their thing.

Also what would our country side look like with no animals, what will eat all the grass etc.

cormie

Interesting to see such a high % of people who wouldn't even consider cutting down. I wonder would anyone change their opinion in future even though you don't think you ever would now?

wonderfulname wrote: »

One gp, 6 cancer survivors in 10 years... bet my gp has seen more than that!

There are arguments for cutting animal products from your diet, or cutting down on them, this is not one of them. If he had something valid, which others have had regarding meat consumption and cancer if you want to continue looking at that, he would get it published by a respected journal for the benefit of his profession, not as a self help book.

I'd definitely agree with you there, when I saw "half a dozen" written I thought that's not even close to enough. It would be interesting to see unbiased, conclusive studies carried out on this.

kylith wrote: »

I am highly dubious about a vegan diet. I think that any diet that necessitates taking supplements and which is completely impossible to follow eating only locally produced food is not a sustainable one.

Supplements aren't necessary if you're diet is giving you enough nutrition, same with any diet. We have plenty of dark leafy greens growing in Ireland, this is probably the best type of food you can eat but again, limiting yourself to eating simple foods is quite difficult, especially if you're a foody and love great tasting food, but of course, you can do almost anything with vegan food anyway if you're any way good in the kitchen.

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

I'd struggle to come up with one positive and the negatives are vast. For one not eating meat or other dairy, that's a pretty massive negative for a meat and dairy lover like me that never has a meal without one or both. Then there is the damage it would do to agriculture if people turned vegan in large numbers, it would destroy the industry resulting in job losses in the industry and all related industries. Basically it would ruin the country and that only a small number of the vast array of negatives.

Meat FTW!!!

I wouldn't be so quick to make such a conclusion, the very idea of a vegan diet is utilising the land to its fullest. It'd be interesting to see how it would benefit, or not, agriculture.

Shenshen

kylith wrote: »

If we all went vegan tomorrow it'd have to.

Erm, isn't the article only about people with cancer profiting from going vegan?

Are you suggesting the entire population has cancer?

5live

Shenshen wrote: »

Personal preferences aside, surely it would be a massive bonus to agriculture? The amount of additional fruit, vegetables and cereals that would need to be grown to cover demand would surely be welcome by farmers?

After all, there is far less cost and effort involved in growing food directly for consumption than there would be in growing food for consumption by animals first before then consuming that animal?

Where are you going to grow all those veggie foods?

The reason that Ireland is predominately pastoral based agriculture is due to the fact that only a small proportion of the agricultural land base is suitable for tilling. And of that proportion, a smaller area again would be suitable for continuous tilling, iirc less than 20% of the land base would be deemed suitable for continuous tilling.

So what happens the 80% of non-tillable land when veganism takes hold? What is going to control the annexation by scrub of the mountains and hill lands that sheep grazing controls and the resultant tourism revenues falling when there is nothing to see? What happens the shallow soils that cannot be ploughed? What happens the heavy lands where crops cannot be harvested but are capable of growing huge quantities grass?

All reasonable questions but why let facts get in the way of a belief system:rolleyes:

YFlyer

kylith wrote: »

If we all went vegan tomorrow it'd have to.

A quantum leap.

Shenshen

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

Dairy is the most profitable part of the farming industry so getting rid of that certainly would not be welcome. Then there is the fact that a lot of Irish farms are unsuitable for growing fruit, veg and grains due to the type of land or the size of the farm (not big enough to grow enough to be profitable). The majority of grain and fruit and veg are grown in the east and south of the country for a reason. Also beef farmers, sheep farmers and dairy farmers don't want to be tillage farmers, animals are their thing.

Also what would our country side look like with no animals, what will eat all the grass etc.

Again, reading the article I understood it to be talking about people suffering from cancer profiting from a vegan diet, not the entire population.

But let's for arguments' sake assume that a majority actually decided to go vegan.
Surely there is a massive new market for anyone in the agricultural business with a bit of cop on?
After all, none of the main tobacco growing countries have gone bankrupt since the decrease in the number od smokers worldwide?

Also, assuming that the neww vegans switched diets simply for health reasons, there is still the wool and leather industries to consider, not to mention that the market for organic fertiliser would see an unprecedented boom.

The Backwards Man

I love my veg and fruit as much as the next guy, and I got all excited about going to a vegan restaurant expecting a plethora of colourful, healthy, and aromatic dishes. What did I find? Fake chicken curry, fake burgers, and fake ice cream. I often have a dinner of potatoes and onions and cabbage or something, I'm more vegan than the vegans themselves. And I love meat.

kylith

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

Also what would our country side look like with no animals, what will eat all the grass etc.

You don't have to worry about the grass, there'd be a lot less of it without animals.

I have to admit that one thing that makes me nervous of veganism/vegetarianism is the monocultures that are created by it. In a cow pasture or in the case of sheep on a mountain the animals are part of the ecosystem, there may be hundreds of species of plants growing in amongst the grass, and thousands of species of insect and small mammals reliant on it but in fields of crops you only get that crop; no weeds, no insects, nothing that isn't soya or wheat or whatever. I know that it's currently the case on arable farms, but I think it'd be a shame to lose more of our biodiversity by expanding monocultures into what is at the moment an ecosystem.

Shenshen wrote: »

Erm, isn't the article only about people with cancer profiting from going vegan?

Are you suggesting the entire population has cancer?

No, I'm talking about the impact of veganism on agriculture.

Shenshen

5live wrote: »

Where are you going to grow all those veggie foods?

The reason that Ireland is predominately pastoral based agriculture is due to the fact that only a small proportion of the agricultural land base is suitable for tilling. And of that proportion, a smaller area again would be suitable for continuous tilling, iirc less than 20% of the land base would be deemed suitable for continuous tilling.

So what happens the 80% of non-tillable land when veganism takes hold? What is going to control the annexation by scrub of the mountains and hill lands that sheep grazing controls and the resultant tourism revenues falling when there is nothing to see? What happens the shallow soils that cannot be ploughed? What happens the heavy lands where crops cannot be harvested but are capable of growing huge quantities grass?

All reasonable questions but why let facts get in the way of a belief system:rolleyes:

What belief system would that be, out of curiosity?

I'm far from being an expert on agriculture, but I can't help feeling that the doom-and-gloom scenarios are a little sensationalist.
People would still eat, after all. The only thing that changes is what they would eat.

Frigga_92

I am allergic to eggs and some other dairy products so I use vegan recipes sometimes when cooking. No reason other than that.

El_Dangeroso

I feel sorry for vegans and vegetarians, the only ones that seem to get into the media are the certified nutjobs.

This guy should have his medical council license revoked for spouting such dangerous pseudoscience.

No diet has been proven to beat chemo and radiotherapy, anyone who thinks otherwise needs their head examined.

Lau2976

I hate vegans that preach. But if those are the only types if vegans you've come into contact with your probably surrounding yourself with the wrong type of people TBH.

For health reasons I have been forced to partake in the eating of meat recently, but it's a major annomolly and it isn't the meat I eat it for, it's the preservatives. But other then that vegan is a great diet. It's full of fiber so constipation is a thing if the past for most vegans. And the energy boost is immense. Eating meat, for me, has made me sluggish and tired.

I've been vegan most of my life though, and before I was vegan I was vegetarian from the age of about 2 so it was not a difficult transition for me. But for meat eaters it must be extremely difficult and I understand why people don't want another hassle in their lives.

kylith

YFlyer wrote: »

A quantum leap.

What else would farmers do if a massive shift away from animal products occurred only slaughter the herds? Are they going to continue paying for food and veterinary care for their cattle and sheep until they die of old age? Of course not.

Shenshen wrote: »

Also, assuming that the neww vegans switched diets simply for health reasons, there is still the wool and leather industries to consider, not to mention that the market for organic fertiliser would see an unprecedented boom.

Even assuming that they kept using leather, wool, etc. would it even be profitable for farmers to raise animals just for those products? What happens to the rest of the cow when it's slaughtered for its skin? Whatever about wool, at least a sheep can keep producing that, I'd say leather would be a thing of the past, or massively expensive because of the fact that it would take years for a cow to reach full size to maximise the size of the skin and then you'd have to discard 99% of the carcass.

Lau2976

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I love my veg and fruit as much as the next guy, and I got all excited about going to a vegan restaurant expecting a plethora of colourful, healthy, and aromatic dishes. What did I find? Fake chicken curry, fake burgers, and fake ice cream. I often have a dinner of potatoes and onions and cabbage or something, I'm more vegan than the vegans themselves. And I love meat.

I think this is a major issue in this country. Restaurants, even vegan or those claiming to be vegan friendly, actually serve very little a vegan can eat.

It's astonishing going to a restaurant that has confirmed its vegan, or vegan friendly, and being given no option or choice and handed a stuffed pepper or salad and chips. Or tofu replacing the meat and that's it.

It is a shame because vegan food is delis hours but people who find know that never get to experience if because it isn't made in these restaurants, it's made in people's homes.

YFlyer

kylith wrote: »

What else would farmers do if a massive shift away from animal products occurred only slaughter the herds? Are they going to continue paying for food and veterinary care for their cattle and sheep until they die of old age? Of course not.

It would likely take a number of years or decades (if ever) for this to occur. Farmers will have ample time to adapt.