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Vegan Ireland

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    #92
    AnimalChin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 120 ✭✭AnimalChin


    Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »
    They are treated better than a lot of humans in the world and never want for anything.

    That's just not true for the large majority of animals. I know it's something us meat eaters want to believe in order to justify our actions.


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    #93
    Lau2976
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Lau2976


    They are treated better than a lot of humans in the world and never want for anything

    Ah here now, I don't think being inseminated, having their milk harvestated, being branded, kept in pens and then prematurely slaughtered (whether as a young animal or old) is bring "treated better than a lot of humans in the world"


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    #94
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    kylith wrote: »
    So it's ok to be judgemental of people who don't plan on cutting down their meat intake? A group which includes people like me who have eaten meat maybe two meals this week? Are you saying that I'm uneducated and know nothing about veganism and am therefore morally and ethically inferior to you?

    I'm not calling anybody anything.

    I simply pointed out that the quoting was omitting some rather relevant bits.


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    #95
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AnimalChin wrote: »
    That's just not true for the large majority of animals. I know it's something us meat eaters want to believe in order to justify our actions.

    Animals are treated extremely well in Ireland.
    Lau2976 wrote: »
    Ah here now, I don't think being inseminated, having their milk harvestated, being branded, kept in pens and then prematurely slaughtered (whether as a young animal or old) is bring "treated better than a lot of humans in the world"

    Would you rater be a cow sitting in a nice shed eating silage, given medication if you are sick, pain killers if you are injured etc or be starving in Africa?

    What exactly is wrong with inseminating, milking, branding is done with paint in Ireland whats wrong with that? Kept in pens? They aren't kept in pens they are in sheds during the winter which is much better than being out in the rain and cold wouldn't you say. They are slaughtered but but live a good life and they are quickely and humanely slaughtered.

    In Ireland, which is whats relevant to the food we eat here, farm animals are treated extremely well and have very good lives.


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    #96
    loveisdivine
    Registered Users Posts: 2,463 ✭✭✭loveisdivine


    Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »
    Comments like this is why I struggle to be in the same room as a vegan sprouting their "opinion". Eating meat and loving animals are two totally different things. I love animals, have been around them all my life on the farm at home. They are treated better than a lot of humans in the world and never want for anything. I also love meat and would rarely have a meal without it and have no problem whatsoever with the humane slaughter of animals for consumption.

    I'm looking forward to spending lots of time over Christmas out on the farm with the animals and Im also looking forward to having some of the full lamb that's sitting in our freezer.

    You don't love animals for the sentient beings they are though. You are mistaking love for caring about something because it has value to you. That could be monetary value, or value as a resource. But its not a love for the animal as a living creature.


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    #97
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Lau2976 wrote: »
    Ah here now, I don't think being inseminated, having their milk harvestated, being branded, kept in pens and then prematurely slaughtered (whether as a young animal or old) is bring "treated better than a lot of humans in the world"

    I dunno. Having good and sufficient food and water, shelter, and medical care is a damn sight more than a lot of humans in the world have. If you don't think so then I would suggest that you are woefully under-informed about how many people on earth live.

    Animals in this country, excluding battery farmed ones and even they have food, shelter and medical care, have it a lot better than a lot of humans.


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    #98
    Luke92
    Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Luke92


    I thought it was common knowledge that chemo was made of tofu! you fools!


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    #99
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I'm not calling anybody anything.

    I simply pointed out that the quoting was omitting some rather relevant bits.
    Points aimed at people who don't intend to cut down their consumption of animal products, despite the fact that you have no idea whether that would be a chicken fillet once a week or steak three times a day.
    loveisdivine wrote: »
    You don't love animals for the sentient beings they are though. You are mistaking love for caring about something because it has value to you. That could be monetary value, or value as a resource. But its not a love for the animal as a living creature.
    How do you know?


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    #100
    loveisdivine
    Registered Users Posts: 2,463 ✭✭✭loveisdivine


    kylith wrote: »

    How do you know?

    Because if they truly loved the animal as a living creature they wouldn't want it killed just so they can eat it.

    The same way the majority of people wouldn't be ok with killing and eating their dog or cat or any other pet.


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    #101
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »
    Would you rater be a cow sitting in a nice shed eating silage, given medication if you are sick, pain killers if you are injured etc or be starving in Africa?

    Yes, I'd rather be free than pumped full of chemicals and fenced in. Do you honestly believe captive animals are "happier" than animals in their natural environment?


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    #102
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    loveisdivine wrote: »
    You don't love animals for the sentient beings they are though. You are mistaking love for caring about something because it has value to you. That could be monetary value, or value as a resource. But its not a love for the animal as a living creature.

    In not mistaking anything, I love animals and have done more to help and look after them than the vast majority of vegans or vegetarians.
    Ush1 wrote: »
    Yes, I'd rather be free than pumped full of chemicals and fenced in. Do you honestly believe captive animals are "happier" than animals in their natural environment?

    As always the problem with these arguments is people who haven't got a single clue what they are talking about are trying to debate with people who know what they are talking about.

    So treating an animal that's sick with an injection is pumping them full of chemicals or giving them a preventative dose to stop them getting something. Is injecting a child with the MMR forcing chemicals into them, they have no say after all.

    A cow or a sheeps natural environment is in the fields and this is actually where sheep spend most of the year and cows/cattle spend most of the year. Of course they are happier inside during the winter than out in the rain and cold and up to their neck in muck.


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    #103
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Yes, I'd rather be free than pumped full of chemicals and fenced in. Do you honestly believe captive animals are "happier" than animals in their natural environment?

    To be honest, I think most animals would not think further than a full belly and shelter. Well, and sex, obviously, that's nature.
    And since they are not aware of the fact that those nice two-legged things that provide for them are going to kill them shortly, I don't think they're actually unhappy as such.

    I still can't get myself to eat one, though.


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    #104
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    loveisdivine wrote: »
    Because if they truly loved the animal as a living creature they wouldn't want it killed just so they can eat it.

    The same way the majority of people wouldn't be ok with killing and eating their dog or cat or any other pet.
    If I was hungry enough I'd eat my dog. I actually have no problem with people in general eating cats and dogs as part of their normal diet. I love my dogs, I know their personalities and their foibles, it doesn't mean that I think people who eat dogs are monsters or uneducated, they just happen to eat dogs.
    Ush1 wrote: »
    Yes, I'd rather be free than pumped full of chemicals and fenced in. Do you honestly believe captive animals are "happier" than animals in their natural environment?

    Yes, provided their enclosure meets their physical and mental needs. Most wild animals die horrible deaths from injury, disease, and being eaten - sometimes before they're even dead. There is nothing nice about nature or natural environments.


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    #105
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    Shenshen wrote: »
    And since they are not aware of the fact that those nice two-legged things that provide for them are going to kill them shortly, I don't think they're actually unhappy as such.

    surely they've copped on by now, talk about slow learners

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ12DDe4ag0


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    #106
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    fryup wrote: »
    surely they've copped on by now, talk about slow learners

    I wouldn't be too sure - fish have fallen for the old worm-on-a-hook thing for millenia now, after all.


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    #107
    Lau2976
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Lau2976


    Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »
    Would you rater be a cow sitting in a nice shed eating silage, given medication if you are sick, pain killers if you are injured etc or be starving in Africa?

    What exactly is wrong with inseminating, milking, branding is done with paint in Ireland whats wrong with that? Kept in pens? They aren't kept in pens they are in sheds during the winter which is much better than being out in the rain and cold wouldn't you say. They are slaughtered but but live a good life and they are quickely and humanely slaughtered.

    In Ireland, which is whats relevant to the food we eat here, farm animals are treated extremely well and have very good lives.

    By comparing the life animals life to the life of people in Africa you have opened up to comparison of animals around the world so your final point is null.

    I would rather be neither TBH. What happens around the world is horrendous but it doesn't lesser the plight if animals. Animals who have complete trust in those humans around them. The issues in other countries are down to a number of factors but IMHO dying of starvation is different to being killed. I would rather starve to death then be murdered. At least you have any about of control when you starve.

    Insemination only adds to the strain in natural resources for one. Cows around the world are constantly artificially inseminated. How about the mental strain? I certainly wouldn't want to be inseminated. That milk is naturally for the calf. Not for humans. Taking it from a mother, again in an unatural process, both leaves the calf to get nutrients from an unnatural source or to be malnourished. Has it always? How about the countries that don't? How about dogs on fur farms? Or pigs? Or during the summer when they are in penned enclosures, ones often too small for the number of animals present.

    So you can honestly say you'd rather live that life and be slaughtered prematurely, or live in the wild and have a chance of death or a chance of survival?


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    #108
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I wouldn't be too sure - fish have fallen for the old worm-on-a-hook thing for millenia now, after all.

    yes as i said slow learners, they deserve to be eaten for their stupidity


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    #109
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    fryup wrote: »
    yes as i said slow learners, they deserve to be eaten for their stupidity

    I can offer some of my colleagues for your dinner table then. Any fish would easily outsmart them.


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    #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Lau2976 wrote: »
    By comparing the life animals life to the life of people in Africa you have opened up to comparison of animals around the world so your final point is null.

    I would rather be neither TBH. What happens around the world is horrendous but it doesn't lesser the plight if animals. Animals who have complete trust in those humans around them. The issues in other countries are down to a number of factors but IMHO dying of starvation is different to being killed. I would rather starve to death then be murdered. At least you have any about of control when you starve.

    Insemination only adds to the strain in natural resources for one. Cows around the world are constantly artificially inseminated. How about the mental strain? I certainly wouldn't want to be inseminated. That milk is naturally for the calf. Not for humans. Taking it from a mother, again in an unatural process, both leaves the calf to get nutrients from an unnatural source or to be malnourished. Has it always? How about the countries that don't? How about dogs on fur farms? Or pigs? Or during the summer when they are in penned enclosures, ones often too small for the number of animals present.

    So you can honestly say you'd rather live that life and be slaughtered prematurely, or live in the wild and have a chance of death or a chance of survival?

    Look farming isn't perfect around the world and there are many practices I do disagree with but most of what you mentioned aren't an issue, for instance calves on dairy farms are still given the natural milk just by bucket and lots are sold to beef farms to put with a cow who lost her calf, we buy one or two calves from dairy farms almost every year if we lose one or two of our own. I still don't see the issue with artificial insemination how would it give mental strain to an animal, they don't even know what's happening and it's not a painful process.

    Fur farms are not for comparison with normal farming imo.

    To answer your question in almost all instance bar a small number id prefer to be an animal fed and watered but heading for slaughter (as Id never know I was) than be a human starving.


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    #111
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    A lot of farmed animals around the world are getting far more than antibiotics when they're sick. Some people really have no clue.

    If you think animals are simply happy with a full belly you're wrong:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_psychopathology

    In fact, farm animals are more prone to eating disorders.

    Deaths in the wild are often horrific but they are nature and at least that animal was free. I would prefer to be hunted and suddenly shot in the head by a hunter than spending my whole life in a tiny area.


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    #112
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ush1 wrote: »
    A lot of farmed animals around the world are getting far more than antibiotics when they're sick. Some people really have no clue.

    If you think animals are simply happy with a full belly you're wrong:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_psychopathology

    In fact, farm animals are more prone to eating disorders.

    Deaths in the wild are often horrific but they are nature and at least that animal was free. I would prefer to be hunted and suddenly shot in the head by a hunter than spending my whole life in a tiny area.

    There are issues in places like the United states yes but regulations could sort that out.

    There are a number of farms in my family and I've had dealings with more farms than I can count from as far back as I can remember and in this country and I would say in Europe in general animals are treated very well and farming is very well and correctly regulated.

    I bet the people opposed to farming have never sat up half the night trying to keep a new born lamb alive by the fire or day and night kneeling in a shed trying to get enough liquids into a calf to give him a chance. And no its not done with financial reward in mind its done for the love and care of the animal.

    The mistreatment of animals on farms in other countries is not an argument for people to turn vegan its an argument for improving standards, rules and regulations where they are required.


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    #113
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »
    There are issues in places like the United states yes but regulations could sort that out.

    There are a number of farms in my family and I've had dealings with more farms than I can count from as far back as I can remember and in this country and I would say in Europe in general animals are treated very well and is very well and correctly regulated.

    The mistreatment of animals on farms in other countries is not an argument for people to turn vegan its an argument for improving standards, rules and regulations where they are required.

    Yeah, see the problem is, your frame of reference for "mistreatment", will differ vastly from lots of other peoples. Regardless of how long or how many farms you've lived on.


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    #114
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Yeah, see the problem is, your frame of reference for "mistreatment", will differ vastly from lots of other peoples. Regardless of how long or how many farms you've lived on.

    Well if people want to claim a practice is mistreatment when it isn't then of course there will be differences in what some claim is "mistreatment".


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    #115
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »
    Well if people want to claim a practice is mistreatment when it isn't then of course there will be differences in what some claim is "mistreatment".

    Yes brilliant, people have differing opinions.


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    #116
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Yes brilliant, people have differing opinions.

    It doesn't make your opinion right. You cant sit there and claim something is mistreatment just because you think it is. Like how can you claim AI is mistreatment with you haven't a clue about it?


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    #117
    WesternZulu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,941 ✭✭✭WesternZulu


    Rather than listening to anecdotal evidence, here is a recently published peer reviewed paper comparing carnivorous and vegetarian diets which states the following:
    Moreover, our results showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health (higher incidences of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), a higher need for health care, and poorer quality of life. Therefore, public health programs are needed in order to reduce the health risk due to nutritional factors

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0088278#abstract0

    In terms of the environmental impact to go veggie/vegan...grassland that is used for livestock production more often than not takes place in less favourable areas that are not suitable for much else besides grass.

    Livestock convert this grass, a low value cellulose product which is inedible to humans, into a high value product that can be consumed by humans.

    Grasslands sequester carbon as well, and this carbon is lost when ploughed...so tillage based systems do not provide the came capacity in terms of carbon storage.

    It's not as black and white as some vegans or veggies would like you to believe.


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    #118
    RoboRat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,528 ✭✭✭RoboRat


    Vegans don't eat bacon so I'm out.


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    #119
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »
    It doesn't make your opinion right. You cant sit there and claim something is mistreatment just because you think it is. Like how can you claim AI is mistreatment with you haven't a clue about it?

    It doesn't make your opinion right either I'm afraid. The irony is lost.

    How can you claim animals aren't mistreated when you have no clue about them?


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    #120
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ush1 wrote: »
    It doesn't make your opinion right either I'm afraid. The irony is lost.

    How can you claim animals aren't mistreated when you have no clue about them?

    I deal with animals hands on regularly on our family farm. You can tell instantly if an animal is content, stressed, in pain etc. I'm sure you have had some dealing with dogs, cats etc and you could tell when they were happy or not. Its no different with animals like cows, sheep etc.

    I am certain the the vast majority of farm animals in Ireland (and Europe for that matter) are treated very well, there will be some exceptions but that's no reason to stop farming. Does a few dogs being mistreated mean nobody should be allowed to have a dog?


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    #121
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »
    I deal with animals hands on regularly on our family farm. You can tell instantly if an animal is content, stressed, in pain etc. I'm sure you have had some dealing with dogs, cats etc and you could tell when they were happy or not. Its no different with animals like cows, sheep etc.

    I am certain the the vast majority of farm animals in Ireland (and Europe for that matter) are treated very well, there will be some exceptions but that's no reason to stop farming. Does a few dogs being mistreated mean nobody should be allowed to have a dog?

    The question you asked was:
    Would you rater be a cow sitting in a nice shed eating silage, given medication if you are sick, pain killers if you are injured etc or be starving in Africa?

    If you know animals, to me that is a stupid question. That's what I commented on.


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