Vegan Ireland

Shenshen

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

I'd struggle to come up with one positive and the negatives are vast. For one not eating meat or other dairy, that's a pretty massive negative for a meat and dairy lover like me that never has a meal without one or both. Then there is the damage it would do to agriculture if people turned vegan in large numbers, it would destroy the industry resulting in job losses in the industry and all related industries. Basically it would ruin the country and that only a small number of the vast array of negatives.

Meat FTW!!!

Personal preferences aside, surely it would be a massive bonus to agriculture? The amount of additional fruit, vegetables and cereals that would need to be grown to cover demand would surely be welcome by farmers?

After all, there is far less cost and effort involved in growing food directly for consumption than there would be in growing food for consumption by animals first before then consuming that animal?

cloud493

Oh vegans. You guys are crazy.

kylith

Shenshen wrote: »

Personal preferences aside, surely it would be a massive bonus to agriculture? The amount of additional fruit, vegetables and cereals that would need to be grown to cover demand would surely be welcome by farmers?

After all, there is far less cost and effort involved in growing food directly for consumption than there would be in growing food for consumption by animals first before then consuming that animal?

I guess he's talking about the fact that hundreds of thousands of dairy and meat animals would have to be slaughtered to make way for crops and with no-one to buy the meat the farmers wouldn't get paid for any of these thousands of animals, leading to the farmers experiencing poverty and unable to afford to buy the seed and machinery necessary to grow crops, providing that their land is even suitable for arable farming in the first place.

YFlyer

kylith wrote: »

I guess he's talking about the fact that hundreds of thousands of dairy and meat animals would have to be slaughtered to make way for crops and with no-one to buy the meat the farmers wouldn't get paid for any of these thousands of animals, leading to the farmers experiencing poverty and unable to afford to buy the seed and machinery necessary to grow crops, providing that their land is even suitable for arable farming in the first place.

Has society ever made such drastic changes outside wartime?

kylith

YFlyer wrote: »

Has society ever made such drastic changes outside wartime?

If we all went vegan tomorrow it'd have to.

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

Personal preferences aside, surely it would be a massive bonus to agriculture? The amount of additional fruit, vegetables and cereals that would need to be grown to cover demand would surely be welcome by farmers?

After all, there is far less cost and effort involved in growing food directly for consumption than there would be in growing food for consumption by animals first before then consuming that animal?

Dairy is the most profitable part of the farming industry so getting rid of that certainly would not be welcome. Then there is the fact that a lot of Irish farms are unsuitable for growing fruit, veg and grains due to the type of land or the size of the farm (not big enough to grow enough to be profitable). The majority of grain and fruit and veg are grown in the east and south of the country for a reason. Also beef farmers, sheep farmers and dairy farmers don't want to be tillage farmers, animals are their thing.

Also what would our country side look like with no animals, what will eat all the grass etc.

cormie

Interesting to see such a high % of people who wouldn't even consider cutting down. I wonder would anyone change their opinion in future even though you don't think you ever would now?

wonderfulname wrote: »

One gp, 6 cancer survivors in 10 years... bet my gp has seen more than that!

There are arguments for cutting animal products from your diet, or cutting down on them, this is not one of them. If he had something valid, which others have had regarding meat consumption and cancer if you want to continue looking at that, he would get it published by a respected journal for the benefit of his profession, not as a self help book.

I'd definitely agree with you there, when I saw "half a dozen" written I thought that's not even close to enough. It would be interesting to see unbiased, conclusive studies carried out on this.

kylith wrote: »

I am highly dubious about a vegan diet. I think that any diet that necessitates taking supplements and which is completely impossible to follow eating only locally produced food is not a sustainable one.

Supplements aren't necessary if you're diet is giving you enough nutrition, same with any diet. We have plenty of dark leafy greens growing in Ireland, this is probably the best type of food you can eat but again, limiting yourself to eating simple foods is quite difficult, especially if you're a foody and love great tasting food, but of course, you can do almost anything with vegan food anyway if you're any way good in the kitchen.

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

I'd struggle to come up with one positive and the negatives are vast. For one not eating meat or other dairy, that's a pretty massive negative for a meat and dairy lover like me that never has a meal without one or both. Then there is the damage it would do to agriculture if people turned vegan in large numbers, it would destroy the industry resulting in job losses in the industry and all related industries. Basically it would ruin the country and that only a small number of the vast array of negatives.

Meat FTW!!!

I wouldn't be so quick to make such a conclusion, the very idea of a vegan diet is utilising the land to its fullest. It'd be interesting to see how it would benefit, or not, agriculture.

Shenshen

kylith wrote: »

If we all went vegan tomorrow it'd have to.

Erm, isn't the article only about people with cancer profiting from going vegan?

Are you suggesting the entire population has cancer?

5live

Shenshen wrote: »

Personal preferences aside, surely it would be a massive bonus to agriculture? The amount of additional fruit, vegetables and cereals that would need to be grown to cover demand would surely be welcome by farmers?

After all, there is far less cost and effort involved in growing food directly for consumption than there would be in growing food for consumption by animals first before then consuming that animal?

Where are you going to grow all those veggie foods?

The reason that Ireland is predominately pastoral based agriculture is due to the fact that only a small proportion of the agricultural land base is suitable for tilling. And of that proportion, a smaller area again would be suitable for continuous tilling, iirc less than 20% of the land base would be deemed suitable for continuous tilling.

So what happens the 80% of non-tillable land when veganism takes hold? What is going to control the annexation by scrub of the mountains and hill lands that sheep grazing controls and the resultant tourism revenues falling when there is nothing to see? What happens the shallow soils that cannot be ploughed? What happens the heavy lands where crops cannot be harvested but are capable of growing huge quantities grass?

All reasonable questions but why let facts get in the way of a belief system:rolleyes:

YFlyer

kylith wrote: »

If we all went vegan tomorrow it'd have to.

A quantum leap.

Shenshen

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

Dairy is the most profitable part of the farming industry so getting rid of that certainly would not be welcome. Then there is the fact that a lot of Irish farms are unsuitable for growing fruit, veg and grains due to the type of land or the size of the farm (not big enough to grow enough to be profitable). The majority of grain and fruit and veg are grown in the east and south of the country for a reason. Also beef farmers, sheep farmers and dairy farmers don't want to be tillage farmers, animals are their thing.

Also what would our country side look like with no animals, what will eat all the grass etc.

Again, reading the article I understood it to be talking about people suffering from cancer profiting from a vegan diet, not the entire population.

But let's for arguments' sake assume that a majority actually decided to go vegan.
Surely there is a massive new market for anyone in the agricultural business with a bit of cop on?
After all, none of the main tobacco growing countries have gone bankrupt since the decrease in the number od smokers worldwide?

Also, assuming that the neww vegans switched diets simply for health reasons, there is still the wool and leather industries to consider, not to mention that the market for organic fertiliser would see an unprecedented boom.

The Backwards Man

I love my veg and fruit as much as the next guy, and I got all excited about going to a vegan restaurant expecting a plethora of colourful, healthy, and aromatic dishes. What did I find? Fake chicken curry, fake burgers, and fake ice cream. I often have a dinner of potatoes and onions and cabbage or something, I'm more vegan than the vegans themselves. And I love meat.

kylith

Canaan Ripe Appetite wrote: »

Also what would our country side look like with no animals, what will eat all the grass etc.

You don't have to worry about the grass, there'd be a lot less of it without animals.

I have to admit that one thing that makes me nervous of veganism/vegetarianism is the monocultures that are created by it. In a cow pasture or in the case of sheep on a mountain the animals are part of the ecosystem, there may be hundreds of species of plants growing in amongst the grass, and thousands of species of insect and small mammals reliant on it but in fields of crops you only get that crop; no weeds, no insects, nothing that isn't soya or wheat or whatever. I know that it's currently the case on arable farms, but I think it'd be a shame to lose more of our biodiversity by expanding monocultures into what is at the moment an ecosystem.

Shenshen wrote: »

Erm, isn't the article only about people with cancer profiting from going vegan?

Are you suggesting the entire population has cancer?

No, I'm talking about the impact of veganism on agriculture.

Shenshen

5live wrote: »

Where are you going to grow all those veggie foods?

The reason that Ireland is predominately pastoral based agriculture is due to the fact that only a small proportion of the agricultural land base is suitable for tilling. And of that proportion, a smaller area again would be suitable for continuous tilling, iirc less than 20% of the land base would be deemed suitable for continuous tilling.

So what happens the 80% of non-tillable land when veganism takes hold? What is going to control the annexation by scrub of the mountains and hill lands that sheep grazing controls and the resultant tourism revenues falling when there is nothing to see? What happens the shallow soils that cannot be ploughed? What happens the heavy lands where crops cannot be harvested but are capable of growing huge quantities grass?

All reasonable questions but why let facts get in the way of a belief system:rolleyes:

What belief system would that be, out of curiosity?

I'm far from being an expert on agriculture, but I can't help feeling that the doom-and-gloom scenarios are a little sensationalist.
People would still eat, after all. The only thing that changes is what they would eat.

Frigga_92

I am allergic to eggs and some other dairy products so I use vegan recipes sometimes when cooking. No reason other than that.

El_Dangeroso

I feel sorry for vegans and vegetarians, the only ones that seem to get into the media are the certified nutjobs.

This guy should have his medical council license revoked for spouting such dangerous pseudoscience.

No diet has been proven to beat chemo and radiotherapy, anyone who thinks otherwise needs their head examined.

Lau2976

I hate vegans that preach. But if those are the only types if vegans you've come into contact with your probably surrounding yourself with the wrong type of people TBH.

For health reasons I have been forced to partake in the eating of meat recently, but it's a major annomolly and it isn't the meat I eat it for, it's the preservatives. But other then that vegan is a great diet. It's full of fiber so constipation is a thing if the past for most vegans. And the energy boost is immense. Eating meat, for me, has made me sluggish and tired.

I've been vegan most of my life though, and before I was vegan I was vegetarian from the age of about 2 so it was not a difficult transition for me. But for meat eaters it must be extremely difficult and I understand why people don't want another hassle in their lives.

kylith

YFlyer wrote: »

A quantum leap.

What else would farmers do if a massive shift away from animal products occurred only slaughter the herds? Are they going to continue paying for food and veterinary care for their cattle and sheep until they die of old age? Of course not.

Shenshen wrote: »

Also, assuming that the neww vegans switched diets simply for health reasons, there is still the wool and leather industries to consider, not to mention that the market for organic fertiliser would see an unprecedented boom.

Even assuming that they kept using leather, wool, etc. would it even be profitable for farmers to raise animals just for those products? What happens to the rest of the cow when it's slaughtered for its skin? Whatever about wool, at least a sheep can keep producing that, I'd say leather would be a thing of the past, or massively expensive because of the fact that it would take years for a cow to reach full size to maximise the size of the skin and then you'd have to discard 99% of the carcass.

Lau2976

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I love my veg and fruit as much as the next guy, and I got all excited about going to a vegan restaurant expecting a plethora of colourful, healthy, and aromatic dishes. What did I find? Fake chicken curry, fake burgers, and fake ice cream. I often have a dinner of potatoes and onions and cabbage or something, I'm more vegan than the vegans themselves. And I love meat.

I think this is a major issue in this country. Restaurants, even vegan or those claiming to be vegan friendly, actually serve very little a vegan can eat.

It's astonishing going to a restaurant that has confirmed its vegan, or vegan friendly, and being given no option or choice and handed a stuffed pepper or salad and chips. Or tofu replacing the meat and that's it.

It is a shame because vegan food is delis hours but people who find know that never get to experience if because it isn't made in these restaurants, it's made in people's homes.

YFlyer

kylith wrote: »

What else would farmers do if a massive shift away from animal products occurred only slaughter the herds? Are they going to continue paying for food and veterinary care for their cattle and sheep until they die of old age? Of course not.

It would likely take a number of years or decades (if ever) for this to occur. Farmers will have ample time to adapt.

eviltwin

My dad died of an aggressive form of cancer and my mum's family have a history of heart disease so I have cut meat out of my diet. Been vegetarian now for over 20 years and am what's called mostly vegan...apart from eggs I don't eat any animal products. All milk, cheese and butter is from non animal sources. I would go fully vegan but its hard and expensive and eating out is a nightmare. My kids would eat a mostly vegan diet, my husband is a full meat eater. I'm not a preacher, I've never tried to convert anyone and never would talk about it unless asked.

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

Also, assuming that the neww vegans switched diets simply for health reasons, there is still the wool and leather industries to consider, not to mention that the market for organic fertiliser would see an unprecedented boom.

Wool and leather are worth nothing to a farmer, in fact it costs about twice as much to sheer a sheep than you sell the fleece for its only a nuisance.

kylith

YFlyer wrote: »

It would likely take a number of years or decades (if ever) for this to occur. Farmers will have ample time to adapt.

Your guess is as good as mine, really. The only thing you can say for certain is that many, many breeds of animal would be wiped out along with a whole way of life.

Garlicrosemary

eviltwin wrote: »

My dad died of an aggressive form of cancer and my mum's family have a history of heart disease so I have cut meat out of my diet. Been vegetarian now for over 20 years and am what's called mostly vegan...apart from eggs I don't eat any animal products. All milk, cheese and butter is from non animal sources. I would go fully vegan but its hard and expensive and eating out is a nightmare. My kids would eat a mostly vegan diet, my husband is a full meat eater. I'm not a preacher, I've never tried to convert anyone and never would talk about it unless asked.

For your health you should eat meat, a primal/paleo diet is healthier.

Eat fish, shellfish, meat, organ meat, eggs, real butter, herbs, spices, vegand fruit.

Avoid vegetable oils, grains and the obvious ones like sweets and fast food.

eviltwin

Garlicrosemary wrote: »

For your health you should eat meat, a primal/paleo diet is healthier.

I actually don't like red or white meat. I never ate it anyway. Can't stand the look, taste or smell. I loved fish and found that really hard to give up and it took about a year to fully wean myself off it. I just go by how I feel and I feel better with no animal products in my diet. Just need to work on the eggs now.

AnimalChin

Garlicrosemary wrote: »

For your health you should eat meat, a primal/paleo diet is healthier.

I find the paleo hacks more annoying than anyone (I don't mean you).

Also, nearly everyone seems to have their own a la carte version of paleo - some eat dairy for example.

I've cut way down on meat and feel so much better now. A few ailments I was having have completely subsided.

Garlicrosemary

AnimalChin wrote: »

I find the paleo hacks more annoying than anyone (I don't mean you).

Also, nearly everyone seems to have their own a la carte version of paleo - some eat dairy for example.

I've cut way down on meat and feel so much better now. A few ailments I was having have completely subsided.

I'd doubt it's the meat that was causing the issues unless you were cooking it in vegetable oils. Have you improved your diet and lifestyle in general since making the decision to remove meat?

If we find a single vegan with cancer, does that totally invalidate both the article, the book, and both the authors?

eviltwin

Garlicrosemary wrote: »

I'd doubt it's the meat that was causing the issues unless you were cooking it in vegetable oils. Have you improved your diet and lifestyle in general since making the decision to remove meat?

This is the thing. People who go veggie or vegan for health reasons tend to be healthier anyway. I run a lot, I don't drink, smoke or eat sugar. Am I feeling better simply because I no longer eat meat? Probably not but its become the norm for me. I'm now off meat longer than I was ever on it. I bought a ham yesterday for Christmas dinner and just looking at it I know I couldn't bring myself to eat it..there is no harm in having some meat in your diet but I know I couldn't do that again.

Vision of Disorder

Tilly wrote: »

you mean to tell me you don't believe in the powers of iceberg lettuce????

One sank the Titanic and killed hundreds of meateaters...