Formula 1 2015: General Discussion Thread

ScumLord

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm sure they'd be delighted with any performance increase. A second improvement might put them in the middle of this years grid but everyone else will have improved at the same time so a second probably won't be enough.

How about an answer to a direct question?

I don't sit in on McLaren technical meetings, I'm not an expert on engines, I can't say that they've made fundamental design errors. All I'm saying is I'm going to wait until next year to pass judgement. No team really aced the current power unit straight off the bat, every team had reliability issues in the first year.

The engine is fundamentally ****. It doesn't take a genius to see that. They can't even add anything without it messing up something else. It's unreliable and slow, worst of both worlds.
The chassis seems better than fine.

Spudman_20000

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Slightly off-topic, but the BBC are planning cutbacks to their sports department, and F1 could get the chop: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/12001755/BBC-faces-losing-Formula-1-darts-and-snooker-ina-new-cuts-to-sports-division.html

Bernie has refused to renegotiate the BBC's deal: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/12004285/Bernie-Ecclestone-turns-down-BBC-plea-to-renegotiate-F1-contract.html

It will be a sad day when F1 moves completely off free-to-air TV.

Couldn't the BBC cut around 100 of their cookery programs instead? That's 15 million saved on ingredients right there .

In all seriousness, no more free-to-air would be the end of me following the sport, one that I've followed since 1992.

Spudman_20000

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

Couldn't the BBC cut around 100 of their cookery programs instead? That's 15 million saved on ingredients right there .

In all seriousness, no more free-to-air would be the end of me following the sport, one that I've followed since 1992.

Getting into politics but basically the Tories want as few people as possible to have reason to watch the BBC. It's a real pity and Sky have gotten big enough now that they can out-muscle ITV for anything they want.

Myrddin

ScumLord wrote: »

McLaren/Honda have had a terrible year, they've shown no progress but that doesn't mean progress hasn't been made behind the scenes.

Can we look at this years upgrade program as any kind of insight into their behind the scenes thinking? If so, it doesn't bode well. Their new upgraded engine was spitting fire (not in a good way) in FP2, and needed to be replaced. It seems they can't even make a bad engine reliable, let alone competitive.

sonny.knowles

aphex™ wrote: »

Actually it's pretty shocking as TAG group owns 25% of Mclaren.

There was some talk of Ron Dennis taking over Mclaren and he was shopping for funding, and a suggestion TAG were puling out. Don't think he got finance anywhere.

TAG Group and TAG Heuer are no longer in any way related.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote:

We're going into year 3 of the engine formula, tough titty for them. They started late, that's their problem. They could have used what was in the public domain and didn't.

Yeah. You're kind of talking out both sides of your mouth now. You compose tabloid style pros about how unsuccessful they have been this season, and dismiss the main and obvious reason as 'tough titty'.

Deleted User wrote:

Which is why I wonder to some extent how much effort Honda are putting in and why they would put it in. They're going to be nowhere until the new engine formula comes in.

Are you doubting the money invested, expertise of the team or their dedication? You must be high up in the world of motor sport or cutting edge engineering so I'll wait fur your analysis of their performance.

Is it possible that they are a highly professional team with massive investment who made some bad decisions when designing one of the most ambitious power units in the history of motor sport? They discovered that they had made mistakes and now can't fix them during the season because of (well intentioned cost cutting) restrictions to development.

The season is definitely a failure for Honda and it looks even worse by the F1 media filling in the weeks between events with fantastical predictions of McLaren Honda winning in its first season. If you believed the hype in the off season, you'd have half expect Ayrton Senna to be racing for them this year.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah. You're kind of talking out both sides of your mouth now. You compose tabloid style pros about how unsuccessful they have been this season, and dismiss the main and obvious reason as 'tough titty'.

Not really. The late start is a late start, they knew about it beforehand. They're worse off than any of the other engines were at the same stage last year, despite the fact that Honda had information during development than any other team. The late start is no excuse for them being more than a year behind in development. If they're behind then the late start is tough tittie, the fact they're so far behind is inexcusable.

Are you doubting the money invested, expertise of the team or their dedication? You must be high up in the world of motor sport or cutting edge engineering so I'll wait fur your analysis of their performance.

At this stage dedication because the financials make no sense since the middle of the season. To really "dedicate" and be "cutting edge" (lol) would take more money than they originally intended. It's a complete money hole at this stage.

Is it possible that they are a highly professional team with massive investment who made some bad decisions when designing one of the most ambitious power units in the history of motor sport?

Possible? I think it's more of a given.

They discovered that they had made mistakes and now can't fix them during the season because of (well intentioned cost cutting) restrictions to development.

Yup, they went the wrong way and now they're screwed and nothing they're tried has made much improvement. Are you now questioning their ability to improve? :P

El_Duderino 09

Spudman_20000 wrote:

In all seriousness, no more free-to-air would be the end of me following the sport, once that I've followed since 1992.

People will either pay the money for sky sports or watch it the naughty way on illegal streams. Young people don't usually have control over the channels they gave in the house or can't afford the channels. The middle aged fans will continue watching but they won't be replaced by new fans. Bernie is cutting off the sports future nose to stuff his greedy face (forgive me for butchering the phrase).

I wonder why an 85 year old would be unconcerned about the long term future of the sport...

Uno my Uno.

ScumLord wrote: »

Failure is an unavoidable part of development. Their new engine was always going to fail, and fail, and fail again, that's how you learn how to do it right. The big problem for McLaren/Honda is they're doing their development in front of the whole world, and people clearly have no appreciation for how difficult it is to make a product. Any product. Most the products you use spend years in development and can still fail on general release.


No body intuitively knows how to make a formula 1 engine, it takes time and a whole lot of failure to get it right. If Honda are still making a terrible engine next year I'll start to lose hope, but for now I wouldn't expect anything more than they are doing now.

Surely you jest Sir? This isn't a few sound lads from Manchester Polytechnic in a garage somewhere. This is one of the largest motor and technology companies in the world working with one of the most successful teams in F1. If anyone should know how to produce a working (not even competitive) power unit it's these guys.

They have failed utterly and the notion that they will spend the next four (four!) months tinkering with the design, testing on the dyno and suddenly magically be in the middle of the field is beyond unlikely in my opinion.

More likely in my opinion is that Ron Dennis is currently engaged in damage limitation to ensure that he still has an F1 team in 2017.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote:

Not really. The late start is a late start, they knew about it beforehand. They're worse off than any of the other engines were at the same stage last year, despite the fact that Honda had information during development than any other team. The late start is no excuse for them being more than a year behind in development. If they're behind then the late start is tough tittie, the fact they're so far behind is inexcusable.

While nobody thinks Honda are having a good season, most people have avoided decending into histrionics.

Deleted User wrote:

At this stage dedication because the financials make no sense since the middle of the season. To really "dedicate" and be "cutting edge" (lol) would take more money than they originally intended. It's a complete money hole at this stage.

It's their first season and they can't fix the problems they have due to development restrictions. There's no point humouring your makey-upy insights into the Honda team's internal workings.

Deleted User wrote:

Yup, they went the wrong way and now they're screwed and nothing they're tried has made much improvement. Are you now questioning their ability to improve?

If you had understood my last postyou would know that I think the development restrictions mean we have no idea whether they can overcome their difficulties or not.

flazio

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

Couldn't the BBC cut around 100 of their cookery programs instead? That's 15 million saved on ingredients right there .

In all seriousness, no more free-to-air would be the end of me following the sport, one that I've followed since 1992.

Me too. Unless Sky can make their coverage less tabloid by replacing the likes of David Croft with Ben Edwards or (and I never thought I'd hear myself say this) James Allen. I quit F1 when RTÉ lost it and ITV started to wain. It's only since the current BBC lineup came about that I took an interest again. Might drop off again.

Myrddin

flazio wrote: »

Me too. Unless Sky can make their coverage less tabloid by replacing the likes of David Croft with Ben Edwards or (and I never thought I'd hear myself say this) James Allen. I quit F1 when RTÉ lost it and ITV started to wain. It's only since the current BBC lineup came about that I took an interest again. Might drop off again.

I've totally changed my opinion on Crofty, I used to really like him when he was with 5Live. He's borderline obnoxious now at times...

El_Duderino 09

Myrddin wrote:

I've totally changed my opinion on Crofty, I used to really like him when he was with 5Live. He's borderline obnoxious now at times...

Is he? Do you mean during race commentary or generation chit chat through the weekend? I sometimes mute the TV and listen to bbc 5 live instead. Alan McNish is good at least.

Zcott

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Slightly off-topic, but the BBC are planning cutbacks to their sports department, and F1 could get the chop: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/12001755/BBC-faces-losing-Formula-1-darts-and-snooker-ina-new-cuts-to-sports-division.html

Bernie has refused to renegotiate the BBC's deal: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/12004285/Bernie-Ecclestone-turns-down-BBC-plea-to-renegotiate-F1-contract.html

It will be a sad day when F1 moves completely off free-to-air TV.

This is really really bad news. The Brazilian GP was watched in the UK by 4.57m people, with 4.02m of that coming from the BBC. Sky's viewership was a measly 548k, almost an eighth of the BBC's viewership.

Sponsors will surely be looking at this and even if half of the BBC viewers jump ship to Sky they'll be looking at a 50% reduction in viewers overall. That's bad for the sponsors, bad for the teams, bad for the sport...and bad for the viewers. I won't be getting sky just for F1, but I would consider paying an online only subscription for streaming. If the BBC go to a purely highlights package I doubt I'd be tuning in every week.

Edit: also came across this quote: "In their fourth year of broadcasting Formula 1, Sky have still failed to bring a peak audience of over two million viewers to any race".

Ratings source: https://f1broadcasting.wordpress.com/tag/ratings/

Myrddin

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is he? Do you mean during race commentary or generation chit chat through the weekend? I sometimes mute the TV and listen to bbc 5 live instead. Alan McNish is good at least.

He can be. He very obviously tries to 'Sky' things up, and it's so artificial. Then again, they're all like that (Brundle aside, I really like him). In general, the Sky presentation is pretty sterile, artificial, and tries to pass itself off as a 'valuable package' when it really isn't. The Beeb coverage is organic, the anchors have chemistry, and doesn't make any airs & graces about itself...it's damn good fta viewing.

Zcott wrote: »

This is really really bad news. The Brazilian GP was watched in the UK by 4.57m people, with 4.02m of that coming from the BBC. Sky's viewership was a measly 548k, almost an eighth of the BBC's viewership.

Wow, I never realised the gulf between the two was that big. By cutting sports coverage, the Beeb are just going to lose so many more viewers. It says a about for Sky doesn't it.

Zcott

Myrddin wrote: »

Wow, I never realised the gulf between the two was that big. By cutting sports coverage, the Beeb are just going to lose so many more viewers. It says a about for Sky doesn't it.

Yep, it does. It says to me that Sky are paying through the nose for a package that isn't getting the numbers they've expected, and that most people would rather not watch F1 than pay for Sky.

There was also talk that BT Sport might consider putting in a bid for F1.

I think there's also blame to be laid at FOM for exorbitant fees. The TV rights are huge money, most circuit promoters don't make much money (if any) from the races, and the ticket prices are horrendous. Obviously this really benefits a few people but that's not sustainable.

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

He asked Lauda how it was possible and that it must be due to a technical reason. Nearly fired the remote at the TV.

Ridiculous bias showing indeed. Similarly, I used to like Ted on the Beeb but find him very arrogant now. The whole Sky F1 presentation stinks really. Sad if that'll be our only viewing option

Spudman_20000

Myrddin wrote: »

Ridiculous bias showing indeed. Similarly, I used to like Ted on the Beeb but find him very arrogant now. The whole Sky F1 presentation stinks really. Sad if that'll be our only viewing option

And did you hear Brundle's podium interview in Brazil? He couldn't have been more patronising to Rosberg. It was essentially "Wow Nico, how were you able to beat Lewis?". Like Lewis was a god or something.

Jordan 199

I hope the BBC won't drop F1 from our screens. Because I will miss EJ if they do.

Mike Litoris

If the BBC go and Sky is the only option that'll be it for me watching F1 too. The whole team annoy the shíte out of me even Brundle who I used to think was god and carried the ITV team. Unprofessional, patronising and they portray the worst kind of British bias.


If it does happen I wonder who'll supply the world feed commentary and will Setanta still pick it up.

flazio

Mike Litoris wrote: »

If it does happen I wonder who'll supply the world feed commentary and will Setanta still pick it up.

I'd imagine it'd be BBC's radio commentary like it is for the practice sessions.

El_Duderino 09

LIGHTNING wrote:

The radio commentary is excellent I must admit.

A few times I have been out and followed the race by listening to 5 live and using F1.com live timing. It take a few minutes to get used to but the radio commentary is really good quality
They have to paint the picture for you.

Charlie-Bravo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A few times I have been out and followed the race by listening to 5 live and using F1.com live timing. It take a few minutes to get used to but the radio commentary is really good quality
They have to paint the picture for you.

How are you managing to get the 5Live feed? If I try the tinternet bbc stream I get a geo-block.

flazio

If you are a subscriber to the F1 app the commentary is available on the app.

donspeekinglesh

You can get it on Tune In too

_davidsmith_

First post on here havnt been through it all, so sorry if this has been done in this thread already.

But is anyone going to a 2016 race? provisional calender has been leaked.

I wanted to go to spain but im worried the beer ban will still be in affect. So im thinking of getting gold 4 tickets and sitting at eau rouge.

El_Duderino 09

astrofluff wrote:

How are you managing to get the 5Live feed? If I try the tinternet bbc stream I get a geo-block.

I didn't know that. I'm living in the UK so it's not a problem. I use the bbc radio app on my phone. Might be worth downloading that and trying.

Thinkinf about it, i listen to leinster and munster matches on the RTE, news talk and limerick live 95 apps over here so definately worth trying the bbc app.

flazio

_davidsmith_ wrote: »

First post on here havnt been through it all, so sorry if this has been done in this thread already.

But is anyone going to a 2016 race? provisional calender has been leaked.

I wanted to go to spain but im worried the beer ban will still be in affect. So im thinking of getting gold 4 tickets and sitting at eau rouge.

If you go to the Circuit de Catalunya and look for Eau Rouge, you're going to be very disappointed. Went to the Spanish Grand Prix before. Back in 99 while Spain didn't really care about F1. (pre Alonso) just had a General pass but we went down to the end of the main straight grandstand at the end of the final bend. Super spot. Had the finish line straight across from us, good view of a TV screen and because of a reflection on the slanted glass above the pitlane an overhead view of the Ferrari and McLaren garages. Great place for watching a race which on TV was a snore fest but one of the best experiences of my life.

ScumLord

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Surely you jest Sir? This isn't a few sound lads from Manchester Polytechnic in a garage somewhere. This is one of the largest motor and technology companies in the world working with one of the most successful teams in F1. If anyone should know how to produce a working (not even competitive) power unit it's these guys.

That doesn't mean anything, an F1 engine is a unique thing, with low tolerances and high performance. Unless you make F1 engines you have no ability to say how easy/hard it is to make F1 engines. Someone who was on the design team of the original iPhone isn't necessarily going to be good at making a laptop for use in medical environments. The previous success of McLaren has no bearing on Hondas ability to make an engine. All these points have nothing to do with Hondas ability to make an F1 engine for the 2016 season.

They have failed utterly and the notion that they will spend the next four (four!) months tinkering with the design, testing on the dyno and suddenly magically be in the middle of the field is beyond unlikely in my opinion.

It's not the next four months though, they've been working on the engine the whole time, the next four months is a continuation of their work not the time they start working.

_davidsmith_

flazio wrote: »

If you go to the Circuit de Catalunya and look for Eau Rouge, you're going to be very disappointed. Went to the Spanish Grand Prix before. Back in 99 while Spain didn't really care about F1. (pre Alonso) just had a General pass but we went down to the end of the main straight grandstand at the end of the final bend. Super spot. Had the finish line straight across from us, good view of a TV screen and because of a reflection on the slanted glass above the pitlane an overhead view of the Ferrari and McLaren garages. Great place for watching a race which on TV was a snore fest but one of the best experiences of my life.

I was at hungary in 2006 in the grandstand just at the last turn going onto the straight and it was amazing, me and the dad with a cooler bag full of beer and sambos.

Eau rouge would be exciting and just to say you were there too. But i would im thinking the weekend as a whole would be better in spain. (Im a big alonso and kimi fan)