Formula 1 2015: General Discussion Thread

Jordan 199

McLaren have lost Tag Heuer sponsorship.

counterlock

Jordan 191 wrote: »

McLaren have lost Tag Heuer sponsorship.

Maybe casio will switch to Mclaren. That's about their level right now

Myrddin

counterlock wrote: »

Maybe casio will switch to Mclaren. That's about their level right now

Soon to be sported by Alonso & Button

Harika

Will Ron Dennis survive if he again fails to attract a main sponsor? The exodus of already existing sponsors is frightening as Johnny Walker seems also on the way out.

donspeekinglesh

Myrddin wrote: »

Soon to be sported by Alonso & Button

Nah, that's far too reliable a device for McLaren.

mickdw

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Nah, that's far too reliable a device for McLaren.

Whatever way people look at the mclaren situation, They really had little choice but to go for honda.
Its alright looking at williams etc and seeing them being reasonably successful but they will never be allowed to beat mercedes to the title while they have the standout engine.
Ron wants to win so a customer engine was never a long term option.
Honda could make massive leaps over the winter. If so, it will suddenly look like an excellent idea.
The lack of sponsorship is strange given the size of the team and it's profile.

donspeekinglesh

Absolutely, it was a gamble they had to take. And I hope it pays off, painful watching then struggle so much.

Terrontress

I had to go through several Wikipedia articles to understand the relationship between McLaren, Mansour Ojeh, TAG group and TAG Heuer watches.

I thought they had a common ownership.

F1 fanatic

Its a big task for them to make up a 1.5 top 2 second gap on the top teams over the winter.

ScumLord

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Nah, that's far too reliable a device for McLaren.

How about now?

Myrddin

F1 fanatic wrote: »

Its a big task for them to make up a 1.5 top 2 second gap on the top teams over the winter.

Indeed, how much do they say 2 seconds costs in F1? A lot anyway...

I do agree that moving to Honda did probably seem like a viable path back to winning ways for McLaren. He couldn't have foreseen the hammering they'd take as a brand though

mickdw

I dont think they have to find 2 seconds in the typical sense. True, no team is going to make up 2 seconds over a winter if they are lacking across all departments. Mclaren are just looking to swap out the 'GP2 engine' so I believe they will make up a large amount of the gap over the winter. We will then hopefully see the benefits of the tight rear end and hopefully a good chassis overall.

El_Duderino 09

OSI wrote:

Fixing the harvesting to last a lap and resizing the turbo will go a long way to fixing their issues.

It reflects well on the he McLaren when you consider that they are so much faster than the manor cars and they are pretty close to the Sauber, both of whom have far superior power units. Granted McLaren have better drivers.

The Honda has been a big let down this year. Can't blame a maker of precision products like Tag jumping ship when you see all the mechanical failures and retirements. Honda are a class outfit and are heavily invested in McLaren in the medium term. They will improve and claw back a fair chunk of the deficit. Midfield and challenging for points every weekend would be reasonable to expect next year.

El_Duderino 09

Jordan 191 wrote:

Mercedes to try S-duct this weekend:

PopePalpatine wrote:

Yes, the S-duct is different to the F-duct. There's an slot under the front of the car that channels the air upwards through it and blows it out over the top of the nose section, like this:

According to James Allen, Mercedes threw us a dummy with the S duct. He reckons they were actually testing a higher suspension mounting for a higher chassis next year. Apologies if this is common knowledge. I missed the coverage this weekend.

If Mercedes are going for a new chassis philosophy, it could lead to a bedding in period in the early part of the season. Could mean some unexpected results.

aphex™

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Can't blame a maker of precision products like Tag jumping ship when you see all the mechanical failures and retirements.

Actually it's pretty shocking as TAG group owns 25% of Mclaren.

There was some talk of Ron Dennis taking over Mclaren and he was shopping for funding, and a suggestion TAG were puling out. Don't think he got finance anywhere.

Ousting Whitmarsh looks a better decision by the day. :pac:

Charlie-Bravo

Deleted User wrote: »

Ousting Whitmarsh looks a better decision by the day. :pac:

Funny you say that, what has Bouillier achieved since being in Formula 1? At Renault he didn't achieve much, neither did he at Lotus, in fact they seemed to be on a downward spiral, then he jumps ships to McLaren. Surely McLaren have hit rock bottom* at this stage, and the only way is up.

* I use that term in the most positive way possible. I hope that this is their rock bottom and they don't decline any further and end up pulling the plug on F1 due to a funding issue.

astrofluff

astrofluff wrote: »

Funny you say that, what has Bouillier achieved since being in Formula 1? At Renault he didn't achieve much, neither did he at Lotus, in fact they seemed to be on a downward spiral, then he jumps ships to McLaren. Surely McLaren have hit rock bottom* at this stage, and the only way is up.

* I use that term in the most positive way possible. I hope that this is their rock bottom and they don't decline any further and end up pulling the plug on F1 due to a funding issue.

Very little. He's just there to act for Ron is the impression I get.

Uno my Uno.

I don't think the move to Honda can honestly be seen as anything but disastrous for McLaren. It would be reasonable to expect a new Engine Manufacturer to be uncompetitive but this is much worse. As side from the fact that the engine is not in anyway competitive the reliability issues and missed Qualifiying sessions and even races show that the power unit doesn't work.

It's easy for us to say things about how Honda will get it right and mclaren will surely improve but the question at this stage is whether the power unit design is even salvageable. I've said before at how inexcusable it is for any team to miss a session and poor old JB has missed a few because of engine issues this year.

When you see JB and Alonso posing for joke photos on the podium you know that things are very very bad within the team. JB is sure to write a tell all Autobiography after retires, I'm sure this chapter will be very interesting.

ScumLord

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I don't think the move to Honda can honestly be seen as anything but disastrous for McLaren. It would be reasonable to expect a new Engine Manufacturer to be uncompetitive but this is much worse. As side from the fact that the engine is not in anyway competitive the reliability issues and missed Qualifiying sessions and even races show that the power unit doesn't work.

It's easy for us to say things about how Honda will get it right and mclaren will surely improve but the question at this stage is whether the power unit design is even salvageable. I've said before at how inexcusable it is for any team to miss a session and poor old JB has missed a few because of engine issues this year.

Failure is an unavoidable part of development. Their new engine was always going to fail, and fail, and fail again, that's how you learn how to do it right. The big problem for McLaren/Honda is they're doing their development in front of the whole world, and people clearly have no appreciation for how difficult it is to make a product. Any product. Most the products you use spend years in development and can still fail on general release.


No body intuitively knows how to make a formula 1 engine, it takes time and a whole lot of failure to get it right. If Honda are still making a terrible engine next year I'll start to lose hope, but for now I wouldn't expect anything more than they are doing now.

H3llR4iser

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I don't think the move to Honda can honestly be seen as anything but disastrous for McLaren. It would be reasonable to expect a new Engine Manufacturer to be uncompetitive but this is much worse. As side from the fact that the engine is not in anyway competitive the reliability issues and missed Qualifiying sessions and even races show that the power unit doesn't work.

It's easy for us to say things about how Honda will get it right and mclaren will surely improve but the question at this stage is whether the power unit design is even salvageable. I've said before at how inexcusable it is for any team to miss a session and poor old JB has missed a few because of engine issues this year.

When you see JB and Alonso posing for joke photos on the podium you know that things are very very bad within the team. JB is sure to write a tell all Autobiography after retires, I'm sure this chapter will be very interesting.

Last year, in unsuspecting times while everyone were wetting themselves about "OMG! The return of McLaren-Honda!", I was anticipating an enormous letdown - I'm not sure if I actually ever posted it on this specific board.

The reason is simple: with the exception of the extraordinary period in the mid-late '80s, Honda's F1 efforts have invariably been underwhelming - to the point that, when Brawn surprised the world at the beginning of 2009 after dropping a Mercedes engine in the Honda-designed chassis, many people in F1 wondered "was the problem the engine?". Given the precedents, it was far more likely that, rather than storm in, Honda would have a slow start.

Yet, what they actually produced is abysmal. Back in 2014 pre-season testing, it looked like the 2014 Australian Grand Prix would hardly have seen any cars to the finish line - Power units from all manufacturers were lasting a handful of laps at best. Yet somehow, even with the "frozen development", roll in the first race and they had most of their act together, even if they didn't have the same performance they had by the end of the season - never mind now. For some reason, Honda couldn't even manage reliability at the expense of performance. It's an unmitigated disaster that I see no immediate solution for, as it looks like the Japanese brand simply have no idea where to go, otherwise the reliability at least would have been sorted out by now.

I sincerely hope to be proven wrong with their 2016 unit, both for Button's sake (I don't mind Alonso having his ego downsized a couple of pegs) and most importantly for McLaren's existence - they probably can't afford, financially speaking, to spend much longer at the back of the pack.

El_Duderino 09

H3llR4iser wrote:

Yet, what they actually produced is abysmal. Back in 2014 pre-season testing, it looked like the 2014 Australian Grand Prix would hardly have seen any cars to the finish line - Power units from all manufacturers were lasting a handful of laps at best. Yet somehow, even with the "frozen development", roll in the first race and they had most of their act together, even if they didn't have the same performance they had by the end of the season - never mind now. For some reason, Honda couldn't even manage reliability at the expense of performance. It's an unmitigated disaster that I see no immediate solution for, as it looks like the Japanese brand simply have no idea where to go, otherwise the reliability at least would have been sorted out by now.

This is a good point. Honda aren't just in their first season, they're a few years behind Mercedes in development and also a year behind in experience of using the PU. Add to that the fact that they made a mess of the compressor and energy recovery unit and it looks pretty bad.

Recent reports said the honda ICE is only 10 bhp down on the Renault. If that's true then it's a promising result.

There really should be provisions for extra testing for new engine manufacturers. It must be hugely expensive to the brand and the sport to have honda failing to finish. Far cheaper to let them spend a few bob and get the engine working and competing on race weekend. Looking at honda could really put other manufacturers off entering the sport.

Cost cutting is important but with ferrari's veto and the fact that they only advertise through F1 and habitually out spend the field, it's unlikely to have the effect we want.

PopePalpatine

Slightly off-topic, but the BBC are planning cutbacks to their sports department, and F1 could get the chop: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/12001755/BBC-faces-losing-Formula-1-darts-and-snooker-ina-new-cuts-to-sports-division.html

Bernie has refused to renegotiate the BBC's deal: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/12004285/Bernie-Ecclestone-turns-down-BBC-plea-to-renegotiate-F1-contract.html

It will be a sad day when F1 moves completely off free-to-air TV.

Myrddin

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Slightly off-topic, but the BBC are planning cutbacks to their sports department, and F1 could get the chop: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/12001755/BBC-faces-losing-Formula-1-darts-and-snooker-ina-new-cuts-to-sports-division.html

Bernie has refused to renegotiate the BBC's deal: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/12004285/Bernie-Ecclestone-turns-down-BBC-plea-to-renegotiate-F1-contract.html

It will be a sad day when F1 moves completely off free-to-air TV.

Wow, I'd be a big enough fan of Snooker on the Beeb too so this is really bad news. I'd say Sky are delighted

PopePalpatine

Yep, no doubt there's a few celebratory emails doing the rounds between the Tories and BSkyB.

ScumLord

ScumLord wrote: »

Failure is an unavoidable part of development. Their new engine was always going to fail, and fail, and fail again, that's how you learn how to do it right. The big problem for McLaren/Honda is they're doing their development in front of the whole world, and people clearly have no appreciation for how difficult it is to make a product. Any product. Most the products you use spend years in development and can still fail on general release.


No body intuitively knows how to make a formula 1 engine, it takes time and a whole lot of failure to get it right. If Honda are still making a terrible engine next year I'll start to lose hope, but for now I wouldn't expect anything more than they are doing now.

Seriously? Honda started when the outlines of the Merc, Ferrari and Renault were publicly known already. Whatever about intuition, there were blueprints of right and wrong available and they didn't make use of that fact.
Fail, fail and fail again is when you're aiming high. What Honda are doing is polishing a turd and every time they do it the turd explodes.
Honda can't even keep full power for a lap yet have the worst reliability. If they were hitting 250 down the straight then exploding halfway around the lap then WOOOO! ambition. But no, they've got completely fundamental issues with the engine. At the absolute best, and I can't see it happening, they might be at the end of next season match where Ferrari was at the start of 2016. Meanwhile the other teams perfect and improve all the while.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote:

Seriously? Honda started when the outlines of the Merc, Ferrari and Renault were publicly known already. Whatever about intuition, there were blueprints of right and wrong available and they didn't make use of that fact. Fail, fail and fail again is when you're aiming high. What Honda are doing is polishing a turd and every time they do it the turd explodes. Honda can't even keep full power for a lap yet have the worst reliability. If they were hitting 250 down the straight then exploding halfway around the lap then WOOOO! ambition. But no, they've got completely fundamental issues with the engine. At the absolute best, and I can't see it happening, they might be at the end of next season match where Ferrari was at the start of 2016. Meanwhile the other teams perfect and improve all the while.

You're taking a very short term view there cobsudering that it's year 1 of the engine and year 2 of the formula.

Polemic aside, you're mostly right about where honda is right now. But they are heavily invested in McLaren and F1 so it's in everyone's interest for them to close the gap next year and see what can happen in 2017.

When a company invest that type of money, they are looking to the medium term for a return.

ScumLord

Deleted User wrote: »

Seriously? Honda started when the outlines of the Merc, Ferrari and Renault were publicly known already.

Honda only had an engine in an F1 car this year. They were behind in actual on track development. It's one thing to get an engine working in lab conditions is quite another to get it working in real world conditions.

McLaren/Honda have had a terrible year, they've shown no progress but that doesn't mean progress hasn't been made behind the scenes. Like I said, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt in their first year. If they continue this performance into next year then I'll be worried.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're taking a very short term view there cobsudering that it's year 1 of the engine and year 2 of the formula.

We're going into year 3 of the engine formula, tough titty for them. They started late, that's their problem. They could have used what was in the public domain and didn't.

Polemic aside, you're mostly right about where honda is right now. But they are heavily invested in McLaren and F1 so it's in everyone's interest for them to close the gap next year and see what can happen in 2017.

Yeah, some chance. Then new engines.

When a company invest that type of money, they are looking to the medium term for a return.

Which is why I wonder to some extent how much effort Honda are putting in and why they would put it in. They're going to be nowhere until the new engine formula comes in.

ScumLord wrote: »

Honda only had an engine in an F1 car this year. They were behind in actual on track development. It's one thing to get an engine working in lab conditions is quite another to get it working in real world conditions.

Yup. That's where tens or hundreds of millions of currency comes in. They've gone with a fundamentally poor design. Nothing to do with practicalities.

McLaren/Honda have had a terrible year, they've shown no progress but that doesn't mean progress hasn't been made behind the scenes. Like I said, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt in their first year. If they continue this performance into next year then I'll be worried.

So what kind of performance would be acceptable performance in your eyes? Last year they were 3 seconds off in qualifying for the Spanish GP, would a 1 second improvement be acceptable?

ScumLord

Deleted User wrote: »

So what kind of performance would be acceptable performance in your eyes? Last year they were 3 seconds off in qualifying for the Spanish GP, would a 1 second improvement be acceptable?

I'm sure they'd be delighted with any performance increase. A second improvement might put them in the middle of this years grid but everyone else will have improved at the same time so a second probably won't be enough.

I don't sit in on McLaren technical meetings, I'm not an expert on engines, I can't say that they've made fundamental design errors. All I'm saying is I'm going to wait until next year to pass judgement. No team really aced the current power unit straight off the bat, every team had reliability issues in the first year.