Tamir Rice Video Released

Tiddlypeeps

Deleted User wrote: »

Aside from anything else I love how defending the cops involves blaming a 12 year old kid for maybe (because even this is hypothetical) not following police orders. The fact that it's expected for 12 year old children to be completely aware of following procedures when dealing with the police is really sad.

I think the vast majority of people in this thread have stated that the police actions were well out of order.

Stating that the kids actions were stupid alongside that does not negate the police's actions. An attempt should have been made to disarm him, which would have been almost guaranteed to be successful. The kids death is entirely on the cops hands because they made no attempt at any other resolution. This does not change the fact that the kid was an idiot for acting the way he did in the first place.

Autonomous Cowherd

Saddest thing I've seen in a long time. They barrelled on in there and took a child out by shooting him in the stomach. My kids when they were 12 were in love with BB guns and some of those looked like replica pistols. I hated them, but they were impossible to take off them, so we had strict rules about where they could do target practice. That little fella in the video looked the spit out of any of my boys hanging out pretending to be the warrior. He looked like he thought he was the bees knees. Shaping his moves. Poor guy. The cops acted in an insane manner I dont care what anyone says.., And the definition of murder includes recklessness that results in death for anyone saying we should look it up. Driving up so close to a suspect and shooting him while opening the door amounts to recklessness in my book RIP Tamir.

maniac2000

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I think the vast majority of people in this thread have stated that the police actions were well out of order.

Stating that the kids actions were stupid alongside that does not negate the police's actions. An attempt should have been made to disarm him, which would have been almost guaranteed to be successful. The kids death is entirely on the cops hands because they made no attempt at any other resolution. This does not change the fact that the kid was an idiot for acting the way he did in the first place.

I agree. I think what sealed the deal for the cop who shot was when the kid lifted his top to reveal the gun. that to any cop would result in a drawn gun and shots fired.

I think the cops didn't see the gun so came on in close by to make contact with the kid but a spanner was thrown in the works at the last second when the kid pulled his jumper up unfortunately.

anncoates

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

This does not change the fact that the kid was an idiot for acting the way he did in the first place.

Imagine a 12 year old acting like an idiot.

Well, he certainly paid for it anyway.

anncoates

maniac2000 wrote: »

I think the cops didn't see the gun so came on in close by to make contact with the kid.

Despite responding to a call saying he had a gun.

bodice ripper

that is absolutely ****ing appalling

maniac2000

anncoates wrote: »

Despite responding to a call saying he had a gun.

they were responding to a call about a person with a gun alright but that gun wasn't visible when they arrived so they might have made the wrong split second decision to take him down using their hands of course

Tiddlypeeps

anncoates wrote: »

Imagine a 12 year old acting like an idiot.

Well, he certainly paid for it anyway.

Again ignoring the fact that I outright stated multiple times he did not deserve to die and that the cops handled it very poorly. It's like you read "dumb kid" and make the rest up in your head, why bother taking part in the discussion if you are just going to make stuff up

check_six

kevin12345 wrote: »

They didn't even try to figure or sort out the situation. They pulled up right beside a person suspected of having a gun and within two seconds had him gunned down. They made the mistake of not approaching from a distance and telling the person to raise their hands or whatever they were supposed to do in that type of situation. Surely what is shown in the video cannot be protocol, it looked like a drive by if anything. Very, very sad situation.

Like you, I cannot fathom how they decided on an approach that meant that they stopped within a couple of metres of the young lad. They had time from when they received the call to work out what to do. I cannot imagine that it is policy to drive straight up to someone they believe to be armed and then leap out and hope for the best. It doesn't make sense, you are putting yourself directly in harms way potentially and there are no benefits to the action.

What's a really horrible notion is that they approached like that to 'ambush' the boy (in their minds the 'armed suspect') with the full intention of jumping out guns blazing no matter what. I sincerely hope that this wasn't the case.

The whole gun culture thing in the US seems to be bonkers. Some pro gun lobbyists will probably jump up and say that this mess could have been avoided if everyone was allowed to be armed all the time.

anncoates

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Again ignoring the fact that I outright stated multiple times he did not deserve to die and that the cops handled it very poorly. It's like you read "dumb kid" and make the rest up in your head, why bother taking part in the discussion if you are just going to make stuff up

Well what is the point of consistently pointing out the startlingly fact that a 12 year child was acting like a idiot. Is it in lieu of saying something meaningful?

kylith

check_six wrote: »

The whole gun culture thing in the US seems to be bonkers. Some pro gun lobbyists will probably jump up and say that this mess could have been avoided if everyone was allowed to be armed all the time.

Well, at least he'd have been shot by a member of the public then, and the good name of the police force would be untarnished.


I really hope that there's some kind of recording system in the cop car so what possessed the police to drive so close can be discovered.

Flibbles

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

And the definition of murder includes recklessness that results in death for anyone saying we should look it up. Driving up so close to a suspect and shooting him while opening the door amounts to recklessness in my book RIP Tamir.

Not to be pedantic, but what you've described is manslaughter.

Murder requires being planned and no likelihood of it being by accident.

That's why people who kill in a sudden decision are convicted of manslaughter. It wasn't planned ahead of time.

anncoates

Surely even the most delinquent 12 year old in the world would have thrown down the gun immediately if hailed by two cops at distance with the threat of being shot.

Gyalist

ch750536 wrote: »

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/24/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/

Sympathy is lost if this is true. The whole point of the orange tip is so everyone knows it's not a real gun.

Yet the cops gunned down a young man who was carrying a BB gun to the checkout in Walmart a few months ago.

For those who don't follow these things closely here's a link to the story.

CCTV of the incident

kylith

anncoates wrote: »

Surely even the most delinquent 12 year old in the world would have thrown down the gun immediately if hailed by two cops at distance with the threat of being shot.

As far as we know the impulse to throw it down could be what got him killed.

Gyalist wrote: »

Yet the cops gunned down a young man who was carrying a BB gun to the checkout in Walmart a few months ago.

Probably because they claim that criminals paint orange tips on to make a real gun look like a replica. The US is going to have to ban either real guns or toy/replica ones.

Gyalist

kylith wrote: »

As far as we know the impulse to throw it down could be what got him killed.

Probably because they claim that criminals paint orange tips on to make a real gun look like a replica. The US is going to have to ban either real guns or toy/replica ones.

The BB gun was being sold openly in Walmart. He took one off the rack and was walking to the checkout to pay for it.

Tiddlypeeps

anncoates wrote: »

Well what is the point of consistently pointing out the startlingly fact that a 12 year child was acting like a idiot. Is it in lieu of saying something meaningful?

So rather than asking that question in the first place you assume people are lying about everything other than thinking the boys actions were stupid? Obviously somebody can't believe that two parties are in the wrong, the world is black and white after all! Why not just ask that question in the first place instead of making pages of posts based on false and baseless assumptions on peoples views that are totally contradictory to what they have posted?

To answer your question my original post in this thread was to do with changing my mind on my views in the previous thread based on recent information. I have changed my view that the cops actions were bad but I have not changed my view that the kid's actions were stupid. The narrative "poor little kid, playing with his toys in the park, gets gunned down by police men" was prevalent in the previous thread and is also popping up in this one. My view has not changed that this narrative is untrue and unhelpful, only my opinion on the cops actions have changed.

kylith

Gyalist wrote: »

The BB gun was being sold openly in Walmart. He took one off the rack and was walking to the checkout to pay for it.

Unfortunately my remark still stands. The cops probably didn't see him take one, just saw a man with a gun.

kylith

kylith wrote: »

Probably because they claim that criminals paint orange tips on to make a real gun look like a replica. The US is going to have to ban either real guns or toy/replica ones.

Well if it's one or the other we know which they'll go with.

anncoates

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I have changed my view that the cops actions were bad but I have not changed my view that the kid's actions were stupid. The narrative "poor little kid, playing with his toys in the park, gets gunned down by police men" was prevalent in the previous thread and is also popping up in this one. My view has not changed that this narrative is untrue and unhelpful, only my opinion on the cops actions have changed.

So unless you're just fishing for thanks, the constant reference to a 12 year old being 'stupid' in this instance has a reason or it doesn't.

Are you implying he is in culpable in some meaningful way for being gunned down with what appears to be very little warning?

And in another circumstance, for example, a child dying in an accident through some act of impulsive childish stupidity, you and others would still be at pains to point out that the child was 'stupid'?

Tiddlypeeps

anncoates wrote: »

So unless you're just fishing for thanks, the constant reference to a 12 year old being 'stupid' in this instance has a reason or it doesn't.

Are you implying he is in culpable in some meaningful way for being gunned down with what appears to be very little warning?

And in another circumstance, for example, a child dying in an accident through some act of impulsive childish stupidity, you and others would still be at pains to point out that the child was 'stupid'?

It's like you are not even reading the posts you are responding to...

I have no interest in defending a position I don't actually hold, yet you keep insisting I do, so good luck. Maybe somebody else will bite.

Peppa Cig

In general terms - if you go around waving a gun Or something that appears to be a gun expect an armed police response in any country.
If you then fail to comply with the specific instructions of armed police and reach for gun/something resembling a gun expect to be shot. Does not matter if your 10, 20 or 90 years old. Everyone knows that right?

An American youth with access to replica guns would know - from movies if nothing else.

Police follow strict rules of engagement to justify lethal force. Can't tell from the scrappy cctv but I suspect it will be justified.

Firearms are taken very seriously by all police.

allibastor

I think a funny thing from the video is when the child is going around with the gun, he does flip it about and twirl it and everything. He does look like a child with a gun!

The person who rang the cops in the first place is a bit of a dope, I know the gun culture in America and all that before anyone jumps down my throat.

In Ireland we can get access to sharp swords with some ease, yet I have never seen kids on the street with fake swords and called the guards.

I still say though I think the cops actions of shoot first and possibly ask questions later is stupid. I also think the footage of the two cops at the car, the guy who shot the kid looks like he is humping the back of the car and the seasoned officer standing there with his leg on the bull bars. Neither one once the shot was fired went to actually help the person on the ground.
Even if he had a real gun, once he was disabled on the ground should they not have helped him?

kylith

kylith wrote: »

Unfortunately my remark still stands. The cops probably didn't see him take one, just saw a man with a gun.

I know when I lived in the US, Walmart stores, sold real guns. That may have changed since then. Doe's anyone know if this Walmart also sold real weapons?

If they did, could be the police assumed it as a real gun?

anncoates

anncoates wrote: »

So unless you're just fishing for thanks, the constant reference to a 12 year old being 'stupid' in this instance has a reason or it doesn't.

Are you implying he is in culpable in some meaningful way for being gunned down with what appears to be very little warning?

And in another circumstance, for example, a child dying in an accident through some act of impulsive childish stupidity, you and others would still be at pains to point out that the child was 'stupid'?

I think who ever gave the child that replica gun, is the stupid one. Especially in a gun culture like America .

BoJack Horseman

Jake1 wrote: »

I know when I lived in the US, Walmart stores, sold real guns. That may have changed since then. Doe's anyone know if this Walmart also sold real weapons?

Maybe it depends on the state, but any Walmart I've been in (Wisconsin) hasn't sold anything like that.

Beano

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Maybe it depends on the state, but any Walmart I've been in (Wisconsin) hasn't sold anything like that.

walmart definitely sell firearms in some states. They wouldnt be on a shelf on the shop floor so you could just pick one up and bring it to the till. They would be behind the counter in the sporting good section.

ceadaoin.

anncoates wrote: »

Surely even the most delinquent 12 year old in the world would have thrown down the gun immediately if hailed by two cops at distance with the threat of being shot.

The gun was in his waistband so even if he was reaching for it so that he could throw it to the ground they're going to shoot him.

According to the previous reports there was a dialogue between the police and the boy. Did this not happen?

Someone said the person that called the cops is an idiot. Why? In Ireland if you see a kid with a gun you would probably assume it's a fake. In America it's very different.

Personally I think that kids playing with 'toy' guns is part of the problem. There is too much of a gun culture in the US. I would be very uncomfortable with my child playing with guns, even obvious toy ones. To me, it normalizes and trivializes a deadly weapon.

end of the road

Beano wrote: »

this wasnt a toy gun. Pointing a replica firearm at members of the public is not 'silly'. its stupid.



Can we not stick to the facts that we know?




it wasnt a summary execution. Again, stick to facts. If you cant discuss this without being emotional then you are correct, we have nothing to discuss.

it was a brootle execution. he was murdered. given no chance what soever. no excuses for this brootle murder. i told you all the police gave him no instructions and few if anyone believed me

end of the road

Flibbles wrote: »

Not to be pedantic, but what you've described is manslaughter.

Murder requires being planned and no likelihood of it being by accident.

That's why people who kill in a sudden decision are convicted of manslaughter. It wasn't planned ahead of time.

maybe it was planned