Tamir Rice Video Released

Flibbles

A video has emerged of the 12 year old boy who was killed a few days ago. Based on this video, it looks more like a drive-by murder than an arrest.

Video shows a death, but you can't show any details etc.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/video-shows-cleveland-cop-shoot-12-year-old-tamir-rice-n256656



Originally I stated I was on the police side (from the report they gave it seemed like they gave the kid a chance) but now I take it back. This was wrong.

Tigger

Airsoft guns are toys
The little boy had a toy gun
He was pulling it out of his pants waistband so even if it had had an orange tip they would t have seen

the problem is that the cops entered the area that ment they would be in danger and then they had no time to make a better choice
The shooting is justified from the position but they should have been further back and had rifles and a loud hailer

Also I predict a riot

floggg

Tigger wrote: »

Airsoft guns are toys
The little boy had a toy gun
He was pulling it out of his pants waistband so even if it had had an orange tip they would t have seen

the problem is that the cops entered the area that ment they would be in danger and then they had no time to make a better choice
The shooting is justified from the position but they should have been further back and had rifles and a loud hailer

Also I predict a riot

I don't believe it was murder. The cop probably reacted that way out of instinct and fear as much as anything else.

The problem here is the incompetence, apparent lack of training and attitudes of the cops.

If they believed the kid was genuinely armed why did the they drive in so close and aggressively, immediately exit the vehicle and shoot. Why didn't they enter the scene slowly, park up further back, assume a covered position and attempt to question him.

We see nobody else in the vicinity or in any apparent immediate danger. There was no need for such an aggressive response, no was it wise tactically.

You wonder what training, if any do these people have. You see army personnel in these situations and they instinctively know how to control a dangerous situation and their own instincts and fears. The police however seem to show no awareness in how to deal with these things at all - yet are heavily armed and seem to be given free reign to use force.

From all the recent police shootings in the states it's very clear that there is no respect for life at all amongst the police and it appears to be an institutional culture. They shoot first and ask questions later.

I also don't think its a coincidence that most of the victims of these shootings are black/non-White.

There is an institutional racism whereby they assume every black or brown person is carrying a weapon or about to attack. And they don't have enough respect for these communities or the youths involved to take the time to see if their initial assumptions are through.

So I don't think the problem isn't individual police officers, but the entire system.

allibastor

Holy Crap,

From what I had read before on this I was of the assumption that the cops approached him and told him put down the gun.
From the video and the report underneath the cops nearly drove at him, shot getting out of the car and then stood there like morons while he was down.

I don't have the best hearing, if someone drove at me yelling something I would be very surprised if I heard them.
His gun WAS in his waistband. If the cop yelled at him to put the gun down, he would have had to do exactly what he did in the video, reach for the gun, remove it and then place it down.

Holy ****.

Hoop66

Jesus christ, how much longer are they going to give these boneheads guns and send them out to kill their own citizens?

Fair enough if a few Gards are a bit thick (and, lordy, they are). All they can really do is give someone a slap.

GLaDOS

My immediate reaction was why the hell did they drive in so close if they thought he had a gun?

Someone messed up.

o1s1n

Tigger wrote: »

Airsoft guns are toys
The little boy had a toy gun
He was pulling it out of his pants waistband so even if it had had an orange tip they would t have seen

Airsoft guns are not toys, they're replica firearms and should not be brandished in public. From what I've read, the orange tip had been painted over. So as far as the police were concerned it was a real gun.

Saying that, that's a really shocking video. Poor kid didn't have a chance.

Mr. Incognito

Rookie cop.

Rookies should be unarmed for the first six months. Some idiots just want to be heros

kylith

They literally drive up and shoot him. They couldn't have killed him any quicker if they'd driven over him.

I had assumed that they had parked some distance away, exited the car, issued instruction to raise his hands, then shot when he didn't comply, but there was no time for any of that. They just drove up and killed him.

BoJack Horseman

Pulled right up & shot him almost immediately.

Like that, gone.

Staggering & tragic.

I agree it was stupid of the lad to be hanging around like that brandishing an airsoft gun.

However if the officers feared that, they wouldn't have driven right up to within a few feet & shot him.

looksee

It is ridiculous to suggest the boy was not armed, it turned out to be a toy, but he was posturing with what was for all real purposes a gun. Could have got hold of his father's gun and was playing 'big man' with it. No-one could know. The fact that he was 12 was not really relevant either, a 12 year old could be more likely to pull a trigger than someone older - simply by not fully understanding the consequences of shooting.

At the same time, for the police to pull up right alongside a person they assumed to be armed and dangerous was wrong. At that distance they had to shoot immediately, they had no protection. It seems obvious that they should have approached from a greater distance and with more caution, both for their own and the boy's protection. They do seem to be trigger happy. On the other hand was it an area where for two police to create a stand off situation while they negotiated might have been dangerous if there was a good chance that other people might get involved or be a threat to their backs.

Everything that happened was a result of social environment. The fact that there are replica guns available to children. The fact that the boy had not enough common sense or teaching not to wave the gun around in a public area. Presumably the fact that the boy's parents had not got the message over to him, though maybe they had, 12 year olds are not renowned for doing as they are told. And mostly the casual attitude towards guns in the gun culture that exists means that the police are very likely to be in the habit of shooting first and asking questions later. As long as there is a gun culture this is not likely to change and people being shot is the price to be paid for the right to carry guns.

super_furry

Shoot first, ask questions later is pretty much their policy.

Einhard

I think the problem here is that gun crime is so rife in America, and guns so widespread that police fear the worst every time they are called to an incident, especially if the word "gun" is mentioned by the despatcher. They prefer to err on the side of caution when confronted with what might be deadly force and, in one sense, their argument that hesitation could result in their death has some credence. However, I think it's pretty clear that American cops have become a little bit too trigger happy, preferring to shoot first and ask questions later. And that seems to be the case here- a cop, paniced and in unwarranted fear for his life, opened fire without attempting to evaluate the situation. I don't think it's murder, but I do think it's gross negligence on his part.

Whatever about the specifics of this case as opposed to another though, the liberal approach to gun control means such cases will continue to occur. In Ireland, the idea of a 12 year old with a gun is prepsterous; in the states unfortunately, it's all too plausiable. And until that changes, then little else will.

salamanca22

The video is low FPS so it looks like it all happened very fast. You can see the kid attempting to remove the RIF from his pants, at that point being as close as they were (Totally stupid) they really had no choice. They saw a person about to brandish what they thought to be a live firearm and had no reason to think otherwise being produced just feet from them. It was either them or the perp in their eyes.

The whole way they came upon the boy though was idiotic and reckless and should 100% be disciplined for it.

Tiddlypeeps

I advocated giving the cops the benefit of the doubt in the last thread on the subject, I take that back now. The way the story was presented previously is not at all how it played out, the kid didn't stand a chance. It definitely looks like a case of over eager, trigger happy, possibly undertrained cops.

The kid was a f**king idiot, but he should not have died there. So many ways it could have been avoided.

floggg

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I advocated giving the cops the benefit of the doubt in the last thread on the subject, I take that back now. The way the story was presented previously is not at all how it played out, the kid didn't stand a chance. It definitely looks like a case of over eager, trigger happy, possibly undertrained cops.

The kid was a f**king idiot, but he should not have died there. So many ways it could have been avoided.

The kid wasn't an idiot. He was 12.

captbarnacles

He was twelve ffs.

That video is of a murder.

lertsnim

The video shows a very different situation to what I had envisaged. The police were very gung ho and that kid should never have been shot

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

The kid was a f**king idiot

Breaking news: Child acts like a child

salamanca22

captbarnacles wrote: »

He was twelve ffs.

That video is of a murder.

Look up the definition of murder please. So much hyperbole. People need to look at these cases without emotion no matter how hard it is.

Jester252

The training officer has a lot to answer for here. He pulled the rookie cop right beside an "armed" suspect

looksee

A child (negatively) acting like a child is one that is skateboarding where he should not be, kicking a football through a window, thieving sweets from a shop on a dare. A child with a gun is potentially as dangerous, or more dangerous than an adult. You cannot expect police to say 'ah bless him, he's a kid, come on laddy, give us the gun' in an environment where guns are cool, legal and part of life. The boy was walking towards the police car reaching for the gun. A 12 year old 'messing' would have run, a streetwise 12 year old would have had his hands up.

The police did not follow anything resembling a reasonable procedure either and are also to blame. If they told him to hand over the gun then they are much more to blame, that would be a ridiculous order. We do not know what they said. Sadly there is no clear right and wrong here. In a gun culture, people are going to get shot.

Tiddlypeeps

floggg wrote: »

The kid wasn't an idiot. He was 12.

Painting over the orange tip on a toy gun to make it look real and then pointing it at people in public was a very stupid thing to do, a 12 year old is old enough to know this is wrong. It is because he is 12 that I say he definitely didn't deserve to die, he was old enough to know what he was doing was wrong but probably not old enough to realise the gravity of the situation. The cops absolutely approached the situation in the worst possible way and achieved the worst possible outcome.

Gyalist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJbHiQTe2c

diomed

super_furry wrote: »

Shoot first, ask questions later is pretty much their policy.

you forgot ...... and make up a story.

looksee

Gyalist wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJbHiQTe2c

We do not know the back story here, but even the person talking seems to admit that something was going on. Why does the title assume he was 'innocent'? It seems to establish that not all police are trigger happy. Gyalist, what point are you making, what should the police officer have done in that situation?

super_furry

Some of the language being used by the police is disturbing insight into the way the American justice system works. Referring to him as a "young man". He was a 12-year-old boy FFS.

anncoates

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

The kid was a f**king idiot, .

If we was, then I was. As were the overwhelming majority of people here.

He's a child.

salamanca22

super_furry wrote: »

Some of the language being used by the police is disturbing insight into the way the American justice system works. Referring to him as a "young man". He was a 12-year-old boy FFS.

To be fair, I have heard many male kids being called young man in the states and in canada.

Beano

anncoates wrote: »

If we was, then I was. As were the overwhelming majority of people here.

He's a child.

did you point replica firearms members of the public when you were a kid?

anncoates

Beano wrote: »

did you point replica firearms members of the public when you were a kid?

Messing around with a toy gun was not beyond the bounds then, no. Or acting in a silly fashion.

Presumably he found it somewhere unless you think he's a hardened fagin type with an arsenal of replicas.

And no matter what he was doing, if you think that, essentially a summary execution, was acceptable, we have nothing to discuss.

BoJack Horseman

anncoates wrote: »

Messing around with a toy gun is not beyond the bounds then, no.

This wasn't a toy gun.

It was an airsoft replica gun, with its orange muzzle painted over for added authenticity.

Obviously his killing is abhorant, but the "toy gun" line is disingenuous.

orubiru

anncoates wrote: »

If we was, then I was. As were the overwhelming majority of people here.

He's a child.

Let's be honest here, WE live in a culture where guns are not readily available but people would still use weapons, knives etc.

Even at 5 years old almost all Irish kids understand the concept that knives or sticks or rocks can be used to do damage to other people.

At TWELVE years old pretty much ALL of us would understand that cutting about town waving a tree branch or a rock around is unacceptable and will get you in trouble. Never mind the bother you'd be in with a gun.

At five years old I understood the severity of what happened over Lockerbie and at twelve years old I can very distinctly remember reacting to the news of the school shootings in Dunblane.

To pretend that children don't understand what they are doing when they are doing something like waving a gun around in public doesn't really help the discussion.

Yes, the death of a child in this way is shocking. You have to remember though that the USA is a nation where shootings are common enough and the way that cops are likely to deal with a call regarding a gun is pretty much well known by everyone.

This child has grown up in that kind of culture. He would have been aware of it for a few years if he'd had a sheltered life. If this was a notoriously rough neighborhood then by 12 years old most kids would have a lot of knowledge of, or at least have ideas about, the dangers in their area.

We can't excuse the police for what they've done here but pretending that the kid was some sort of innocent victim here is such bullsh!t.

You can clearly see him brandishing the gun at of the video. So, somebody calls the cops and tells them about a guy running up and down the street waving a gun... in THAT culture... with their recent history... of course the police were gonna take him down.

The kid would have at least had some idea of the potential consequences.

Gyalist

looksee wrote: »

We do not know the back story here, but even the person talking seems to admit that something was going on. Why does the title assume he was 'innocent'? It seems to establish that not all police are trigger happy. Gyalist, what point are you making, what should the police officer have done in that situation?

It was a traffic stop.

The backstory complete with an interview of the guy in the video is here.

orubiru

anncoates wrote: »

Messing around with a toy gun was not beyond the bounds then, no. Or acting in a silly fashion.

Presumably he found it somewhere unless you think he's a hardened fagin type with an arsenal of replicas.

And no matter what he was doing, if you think that, essentially a summary execution, was acceptable, we have nothing to discuss.

It wasn't a "toy" gun.

If I said to you, OK, here is a replica gun, don't worry it doesn't fire bullets. Now, I will pay you 20 million dollars if you walk down a busy street in New York pointing this fake gun at people...

My guess is that you wouldn't take my money because you well know, as someone who doesn't even live in the USA, that the cops will probably take you out. Dead.

As sensible folks will tell you, the entire system over there regarding guns is broken. The officers were in the wrong but a pretty large chunk of the responsibility has to lie with the kid.

Lets say your neighbors 12 year old kid was goofing off with some fireworks and they set fire to your own child leaving them badly scarred for life. Would you reaction be "ach well he's only 12"? Or would you correctly understand that the kids know fully the dangers of fireworks? You'd blame the neighbors kid for what happened and get whatever legal advice you can to make sure that they are punished as much as the law will allow?

anncoates

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

This wasn't a toy gun.

It was an airsoft replica gun, with its orange muzzle painted over for added authenticity.

Obviously his killing is abhorant, but the "toy gun" line is disingenuous.

People are being pedantic about the toy gun definition. If it's a replica gun that a child somehow found and was playing with, it's essentially a toy gun.

It's not being used by an adult or teenager for a hold up or something.

Even if the gun looked realistic, that video looks to be a basic shoot to kill instance.

Beano

anncoates wrote: »

Messing around with a toy gun was not beyond the bounds then, no. Or acting in a silly fashion.
.

this wasnt a toy gun. Pointing a replica firearm at members of the public is not 'silly'. its stupid.

anncoates wrote: »

Presumably he found it somewhere unless you think he's a hardened fagin type with an arsenal of replicas.
.

Can we not stick to the facts that we know?

anncoates wrote: »

And no matter what he was doing, if you think that, essentially a summary execution, was acceptable, we have nothing to discuss.

it wasnt a summary execution. Again, stick to facts. If you cant discuss this without being emotional then you are correct, we have nothing to discuss.

GoldFour4

Full blame lies with the idiot who rang it in as a possible weapon in a playground. He's a kid like, would they not investigate a little further before deciding to call in a firing squad?

Beano

anncoates wrote: »

People are being pedantic about the toy gun definition. If it's a replica gun that a child somehow found and was playing with, it's essentially a toy gun.

It's not being used by an adult or teenager for a hold up or something.

Even if the gun looked realistic, that video looks to be a basic shoot to kill instance.

Nobody is being pedantic. This was not a toy gun. If somebody pointed something this http://www.evike.com/products/25014/ at you would assume it was a toy?

anncoates

orubiru wrote: »

ILets say your neighbors 12 year old kid was goofing off with some fireworks and they set fire to your own child leaving them badly scarred for life. Would you reaction be "ach well he's only 12"?

No. I'd be horrified and devastated but kids do dumb sh!t sometimes.

I'd probably leave shooting him dead out of the discipline method though.

orubiru wrote: »

So, somebody calls the cops and tells them about a guy running up and down the street waving a gun.

A guy?

Beano wrote: »

it wasnt a summary execution. Again, stick to facts. If you cant discuss this without being emotional then you are correct, we have nothing to discuss.

Apologies. They must have edited out the part of the video where they confronted him and tried to get him to disarm.

Beano wrote: »

Nobody is being pedantic. This was not a toy gun. If somebody pointed something this http://www.evike.com/products/25014/ at you would assume it was a toy?

It's not a normal scenario. It's not a crazed wino or a gang banger. It's a 12 year old.

It would be more normal to see the random context here: 12 year old, not a robbery, not an altercation, Just a kid randomly pointing the gun. The scenario surely suggests to anybody that it's play instead of turning up and opening fire before the car has even stopped.

orubiru

anncoates wrote: »

People are being pedantic about the toy gun definition. If it's a replica gun that a child somehow found and was playing with, it's essentially a toy gun.

It's not being used by an adult or teenager for a hold up or something.

Even if the gun looked realistic, that video looks to be a basic shoot to kill instance.

Do the Police know this stuff when they show up?

Say you are the cops. You have reports of someone brandishing a gun. You get there, guy seems young but - HE'S GOING FOR HIS GUN!

Is there time to have the internal monologue required to say well maybe it's a fake and hey maybe he isn't even gonna shoot?

Once that gun is aimed on you, it could be the last few minutes of your life. Or not. Why risk it?

What if it was a real gun and one of the cops dies and the other cop shoots the kid. 2 dead, thanks to slow reactions.

malistheman

malistheman wrote: »

Full blame lies with the idiot who rang it in as a possible weapon in a playground. He's a kid like, would they not investigate a little further before deciding to call in a firing squad?

How is it their fault? They naively thought that the police would investigate what was happening.


Anyway, which of the cops is meant to be the rookie? The guy who drove up alongside the child or the shooter?

orubiru

orubiru wrote: »

Do the Police know this stuff when they show up?

Say you are the cops. You have reports of someone brandishing a gun. You get there, guy seems young but - HE'S GOING FOR HIS GUN!

Is there time to have the internal monologue required to say well maybe it's a fake and hey maybe he isn't even gonna shoot?

Once that gun is aimed on you, it could be the last few minutes of your life. Or not. Why risk it?

What if it was a real gun and one of the cops dies and the other cop shoots the kid. 2 dead, thanks to slow reactions.

You don't pull up next to someone who you're worried may have a gun.

anncoates

orubiru wrote: »

Do the Police know this stuff when they show up?

If they have eyes, presumably.

The kid looked like he was wandering around playing with the gun unless there's a robbed gas station or gang war just out of sight of the CCTV.

captbarnacles

Why did the Cops drive right up to a guy holding a gun then if they thought he was a threat? Why not park further away from him and get out of the car?

Aside from anything else I love how defending the cops involves blaming a 12 year old kid for maybe (because even this is hypothetical) not following police orders. The fact that it's expected for 12 year old children to be completely aware of following procedures when dealing with the police is really sad.

Bio Mech

malistheman wrote: »

Full blame lies with the idiot who rang it in as a possible weapon in a playground. He's a kid like, would they not investigate a little further before deciding to call in a firing squad?

Ridiculous. He reported someone with a possible weapon to the police, he didn't order a hitman. Kids can pull the trigger of a real gun you know they aren't age specific.

Canis Lupus

The cops were told an individual was brandishing a gun and pointing it at people in the park. The police even after shooting Tamir reported initially that he looked 'maybe 20'..

People are getting caught up in the fact that he was a 12 year with a 'toy gun'. The police attending the scene were not advised of this. 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

captbarnacles

Deleted User wrote: »

Aside from anything else I love how defending the cops involves blaming a 12 year old kid for maybe (because even this is hypothetical) not following police orders. The fact that it's expected for 12 year old children to be completely aware of following procedures when dealing with the police is really sad.

This. I reckon if I was 12 and a police car pulled up like that with officers screaming at me it is not certain what I would do. I would be terrified for sure and maybe I would try to throw the gun on the ground.

orubiru

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't pull up next to someone who you're worried may have a gun.

Well, since I'm not a trained Police officer, I don't actually know what I'd do.

I wonder if my job was such that sometimes my life was in danger, how would I react? How would it affect me?

I don't know the answers to those questions. I suspect you don't either.

You are simply making an estimate on how you think you might behave in a given situation. Based on how you think people should behave in that situation.

Reality is probably a little different though. If they are trained to shoot when guns are drawn on them then they follow the training. The training specifically exists so that they won't need to stop and think when someone attacks them. They follow the process. They uphold the law. The law protects them.

anncoates

Canis Lupus wrote: »

The cops were told an individual was brandishing a gun and pointing it at people in the park. The police even after shooting Tamir reported initially that he looked 'maybe 20'...

So if I told you I saw somebody in the park aged 20 and you went down yourself, you'd still mistake a 12 year old for a 20 year old?

maniac2000

toy gun my arse... go to your local airsoft shop and look at the replica guns there.. they look, feel and shoot like real guns and they even strip down like real guns.. the orange tip that they said was missing means it was an airsoft replica gun and not a toy. this is orange tip is required on the gun by law in america http://www.replicaairguns.com/storage/thumbnails/7262430-21996420-thumbnail.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1361491144492 (does this look like a 'toy' to you?)

there is a big diference between a toy gun and a replica gun.