IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

Eh im sorry thats what I have been doing the last 2 or 3 pages im not summing it up again go read the posts

Shin

Sure... no problem

shinzon wrote: »

way to twist what I said under a progressive taxation system everyone pays something the further up the food chain you go the more you pay the vulnerable don't not pay they pay what they can afford which is the way it should be

Shin

So with a progressive tax system I pay nothing because I pay no taxes in Ireland because I have no income in Ireland

A person that pays for a group water scheme pays through this progressive tax system you mention for their group scheme and for the public water system.

A person on social welfare on a group scheme still has to pay for their water from their social welfare regardless.

Am I missing something ?

I've looked back through around 30 of your posts and they don't seem to have a concrete point.

shinzon

keithclancy wrote: »

Sure... no problem



So with a progressive tax system I pay nothing because I pay no taxes in Ireland because I have no income in Ireland

A person that pays for a group water scheme pays through this progressive tax system you mention for their group scheme and for the public water system.

A person on social welfare on a group scheme still has to pay for their water from their social welfare regardless.

Am I missing something ?

I've looked back through around 30 of your posts and they don't seem to have a concrete point.

Well then your completely missing it ive explained the system im not explaining the whole thing again, make up what ye want about it it at this stage but you can also see this and maybe finally youll get it

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/definition/Progressive-Tax

Shin

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

Well then your completely missing it ive explained the system im not explaining the whole thing again, make up what ye want about it it at this stage but you can also see this and maybe finally youll get it

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/definition/Progressive-Tax

Shin

I still don't get it, how can you apply a progressive taxation system to people that are not in your tax net ?

If someone is on a group water scheme how does a progressive taxation system compensate them for that group water scheme ?

And if someone is on Social Welfare and doesn't pay tax then how does this system work for them, are you saying people on Social Welfare should pay taxes the same way as the Dutch Model ?

shinzon

keithclancy wrote: »

And if someone is on Social Welfare and doesn't pay tax then how does this system work for them, are you saying people on Social Welfare should pay taxes the same way as the Dutch Model ?

Im not the government of the day so any policies etc about how progressive taxation would work for group water schemes would have to fall to that government

As regards social welfare a nominal fee could be stopped off the payments in line with the progressive tax system under ability to pay as I stated before

Shin

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

Im not the government of the day so any policies etc about how progressive taxation would work for group water schemes would have to fall to that government

As regards social welfare a nominal fee could be stopped off the payments in line with the progressive tax system under ability to pay as I stated before

Shin

So like a tax rebate if you pay for water on a group scheme ?
People would be docked Social welfare based on if they use Public water or pay for their own water ?
And the people outside Tax net still pay nothing ...

All sounds a bit convoluted when they could just charge directly and then support people in financial difficulty through the welfare system.

Do you think that supplying water through general taxation is cheaper or something ?

Tinkersbell

keithclancy wrote: »

Do you think that supplying water through general taxation is cheaper or something ?

Well, IW have spent around €700 million of our money so far and not a pipe has been fixed or replaced.

Grandpa Hassan

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

The protest organizers are making it pretty clear

I dont know any protest organisers and I couldnt care less about them.

In my own way I will be protesting at how Irish Water has been set up and is going to be run - now, and especially in the future when the Cap is lifted.

So do NOT herd me in with the group of "anti-everything" protestors you assume we all are.
You dont speak for me. Thank God we live in a democracy and we can all march for whatever is it we are angry and upset about.

(Not everyone expects PAYE workers to pay for everything..... I was one of them when I had a job. Now I work on a CE Scheme earning €208 a week and I actually returned my IW Pack in September with my PPS number!! I was prepared to try and pay - until I heard one incompetent mistake after another and realised the mess Irish Water is)

Muahahaha

TheChizler wrote: »

Did I say that nobody was trying to crack it? I said it was out of the scope of your average home burglar.

If you know of any single successful attempt to decode 128-bit AES encrypted data without the key or access to the device then multiple security companies would be very interested in talking to you. I'm not sure it's obvious what kind of resources would be required to make it possible even after a method has been discovered; we're talking supercomputers, days, and gigabytes of captured data just to figure out a single key. The meters only spit out at most a few kilobytes of data every time they transmit, and I'm pretty sure the IW ones only transmit when they're queried, not every 30 seconds. It would take a LONG time to gather gigabytes of data even if you managed to spoof query the meters, and you'd probably run the battery down in the process. They would have to do this for every house they're considering burgling. They'd be better off and much more likely to succeed in hacking the IW metering database for the AES keys, in which event IW would (hopefully) just change them all.
.

More naivety. Maybe the encryption cannot be broken right now and maybe the technology is expensive but I'm sure you're familiar with Moore's Law? Technologies that many would have considered the preserve of national intelligence agencies only 10 years ago are now widely available on eBay for less than 50 quid. As to what is on the dark web I don't know but I suspect people out there are working on it. Near field communications are going to be big business in the next phase of smartphone integration with all sorts of things from paying for parking to a taxi ride possible without the use of a credit card. This presents opportunities for theft and where they exist someone will be trying to exploit them.

Anyway I just thought about it further and to be honest a smart burglar wouldn't even need to hack the system. All they'd have to do is come up with a device that attaches to the meter and sends them a text message when water reduces below X amount. The vast majority of water used is for flushing toilets, baths, showers, etc, basically living human activity. If a burglar wanted to pull off a heist on a high value target home, the type set on many acres covered with CCTV and also the type to have a lot of expensive artwork just hanging there on the wall then a great way of casing the house in advance of the heist is to do it by the water meter- they don't even have to place foot upon the property's land and they can get a good indication of whether or not people are actually at home or if the lights switched on are part of a security system.

The technology might not exist right now but give it 10 years and I guarantee you that it will. And if a burglar knows he is targeting a house with €1m worth of art and jewelry lying about a resourceful operator will use every means at his disposal to ensure the job goes smoothly. If that means using the houses water meter as a way of getting data on actual human activity in the house and the technology to do so is available at an affordable price well then of course they are going to use it, it is naive of you to think otherwise

keithclancy

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Well, IW have spent around €700 million of our money so far and not a pipe has been fixed or replaced.

For sure I agree with you that the setup of IW has been terrible.

However the service prior to Irish Water was and still is terrible.

keithclancy

Muahahaha wrote: »

More naivety. Maybe the encryption cannot be broken right now and maybe the technology is expensive but I'm sure you're familiar with Moore's Law? Technologies that many would have considered the preserve of national intelligence agencies only 10 years ago are now widely available on eBay for less than 50 quid. As to what is on the dark web I don't know but I suspect people out there are working on it. Near field communications are going to be big business in the next phase of smartphone integration with all sorts of things from paying for parking to a taxi ride possible without the use of a credit card. This presents opportunities for theft and where they exist someone will be trying to exploit them.

Anyway I just thought about it further and to be honest a smart burglar wouldn't even need to hack the system. All they'd have to do is come up with a device that attaches to the meter and sends them a text message when water reduces below X amount. The vast majority of water used is for flushing toilets, baths, showers, etc, basically living human activity. If a burglar wanted to pull off a heist on a high value target home, the type set on many acres covered with CCTV and also the type to have a lot of expensive artwork just hanging there on the wall then a great way of casing the house in advance of the heist is to do it by the water meter- they don't even have to place foot upon the property's land and they can get a good indication of whether or not people are actually at home or if the lights switched on are part of a security system.

The technology might not exist right now but give it 10 years and I guarantee you that it will. And if a burglar knows he is targeting a house with €1m worth of art and jewelry lying about a resourceful operator will use even means at his disposal to ensure the job goes smoothly. If that means using the houses water meter as a way of getting data on actual human activity in the house and the technology to do so is available at an affordable price well then of course they are going to use it, it is naive of you to think otherwise

Or .... they could just go an look in the Window ... or just break in wearing balaclavas and steal all their sh1t.

And you still have to physically drive around and obtain a meter reading, whats the difference between that and walking around opening electric/gas meters with a widely available key to check usage ?

shinzon

keithclancy wrote: »

So like a tax rebate if you pay for water on a group scheme ?
People would be docked Social welfare based on if they use Public water or pay for their own water ?
And the people outside Tax net still pay nothing ...

All sounds a bit convoluted when they could just charge directly and then support people in financial difficulty through the welfare system.

Do you think that supplying water through general taxation is cheaper or something ?

its only convoluted if you make it convoluted and start saying about this that and the other thing, progressive taxation works given half a chance I never said I was an expert on the nuances of it, but because everyone was bitching about credible alternatives to IW I came up with one

No one here including myself are experts on how to implement it that's down to the government and it could be the easiest thing in the world to implement we just don't know, again my suggestions are just that suggestions the government mightn't have to do anything about taking a nominal fee from welfare recipients to pay for there water.

And yes I do believe it would be much cheaper then setting up an entire company paying exhorbitant amounts of money to the top tier of Irish water whose sole function is to get the gravy train running as quickly as possible

Shin

Muahahaha

keithclancy wrote: »

Or .... they could just go an look in the Window ... or just break in wearing balaclavas and steal all their sh1t.

And you still have to physically drive around and obtain a meter reading, whats the difference between that and walking around opening electric/gas meters with a widely available key to check usage ?

Well if the burgalar does that then he is a) tresspassing and b) likely to be on CCTV. If a burglar is trying to hit a high value target house why would they take that risk if they can find out all they need to know via the water meter, which is located on public land where it is perfectly legal for them to be? As I said before it may not be possible to do right now but I'd be certain it will be in 10 years. For a burglar who is after €1m worth of art and jewels investing a few grand in a device to log and track the targets water usage to ascertain actual human activity in the house isn't going to be any big hurdle by 2024. Houses can have all the fancy light switching on and off security devices they like but if a burglar knows no water has been used for X amount of time then they get a green light to go ahead with the job.

Pocoyo

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153390688777907

A must see video for people that support this government, this women with children washes her clothing in the same sink where she washes her plates and brushes her teeth.

These criminal/traitors need to be stopped!

Rubber_Soul

shinzon wrote: »

its only convoluted if you make it convoluted and start saying about this that and the other thing, progressive taxation works given half a chance I never said I was an expert on the nuances of it, but because everyone was bitching about credible alternatives to IW I came up with one.

How can you claim something is a credible alternative when you don't even know how it works yourself?

shinzon

StarshipPooper wrote: »

How can you claim something is a credible alternative when you don't even know how it works yourself?

The progressive tax is a credible alternative it is based on the ability to pay and an incremental tax scale the further up you go I linked how it worked, the nuances of how it works however would be down to the government and howd theyd implement it

Shin

Pocoyo

Anti-terror units deployed to stop hijacking of Dublin rally
Surveillance on dissident Republicans and Republican groups will be stepped up by gardai ahead of a massive protest against water charges on December 10.
HERALD.IE

:rolleyes:

Dont protest people we could be caught in the crossfire of terrorist bombs and ERU cross fire.

AboutaWeekAgo

Pocoyo wrote: »

Anti-terror units deployed to stop hijacking of Dublin rally
Surveillance on dissident Republicans and Republican groups will be stepped up by gardai ahead of a massive protest against water charges on December 10.
HERALD.IE

:rolleyes:

Dont protest people we could be caught in the crossfire of terrorist bombs and ERU cross fire.

The scare tactics will be out in full force leading up to December 10th.

ThunbergsAreGo

Pocoyo wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153390688777907

A must see video for people that support this government, this women with children washes her clothing in the same sink where she washes her plates and brushes her teeth.

These criminal/traitors need to be stopped!

Why is she more entitled than anyone else?

Where are the parents etc? There are alot more people than the government that are at fault for that situation

Tony EH

keithclancy wrote: »

For sure I agree with you that the setup of IW has been terrible.

However the service prior to Irish Water was and still is terrible.

So, let's replace terrible with terrible.

Brilliant.

Irish Water needs to be destroyed. The rot has already set in. It won't get better.

tomwaterford

keithclancy wrote: »

For sure I agree with you that the setup of IW has been terrible.

However the service prior to Irish Water was and still is terrible.

but do you honesty believe it will get better under a state run organisation...would they be better to contract out the repairs to the water pipes in the country as I know of a place where the council did two miles of piping four years ago and there has been 30+ leaks on it since (I counted them this evening as I noticed another leak this morning....you get to know where the leaks were with the distrurbed earth above it)

Thurston?

Muahahaha wrote: »

Houses can have all the fancy light switching on and off security devices they like but if a burglar knows no water has been used for X amount of time then they get a green light to go ahead with the job.

What about a fancy security device to switch taps on & off?

falan

Russell Brand and the Rubberbandits are the latest celebs to plug our protest in Limerick on Saturday.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rubberbandits/45998897199?fref=ts

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2014/11/27/rubberbandits-support-anti-water-charges-protest-in-limerick/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Hopefully some more celebs get on board

keithclancy

Tony EH wrote: »

So, let's replace terrible with terrible.

Brilliant.

Irish Water needs to be destroyed. The rot has already set in. It won't get better.

tomwaterford wrote: »

but do you honesty believe it will get better under a state run organisation...would they be better to contract out the repairs to the water pipes in the country as I know of a place where the council did two miles of piping four years ago and there has been 30+ leaks on it since (I counted them this evening as I noticed another leak this morning....you get to know where the leaks were with the distrurbed earth above it)

I only know what works, where I live in the Netherlands there is a similar system with a semi state company (Semioverheidsbedrijf) running and managing the Water Infrastructure in the Brabant Region.

The reason for its success is because its a semi state company that is directly visible to the people rather than a public body that is hidden behind layers of bureaucracy.

Irish Water is terrible for sure, but the reason it is terrible is because it inherited all the inefficiencies of people working in it that used to have a "job for life" there was very little reason for them to excel in any way or save costs and improve service.

The Netherlands loses roughly 6% of its Water in its infrastructure, whereas Ireland currently loses around 40% (estimated)

The benefit of having a semi state company, is that if they don't do a good job, they lose money, people get fired because customers refuse to pay if the service is bad.

If its a public body run by the state, then it just trundles on regardless, fueled by taxpayers hard earned money. This has been happening for many years now already.

Tony EH

The reason it's terrible is because Fine Gael tried to pull the wool over the Irish people's eyes and create a quango (with an endgame of privatisation), that is a shopfront for a tax to pay off banker debt, that also acts as a gravy train for their cronies and really has NOTHING to do with the salient issues that are ostensibly in place.

That is why Irish Water is terrible.

People trying to compare Irish Water and Fine Gael's attempt to fool the public with other functioning systems on the continent are barking up the wrong tree completely.

As for people getting "fired" for doing a bad job. Look up John Tierney's record and ask yourself why he should have a job.

Irish Water needs to die completely.

keithclancy

Pocoyo wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153390688777907

A must see video for people that support this government, this women with children washes her clothing in the same sink where she washes her plates and brushes her teeth.

These criminal/traitors need to be stopped!

I find this video disturbing.

If you can't afford accommodation in a high cost area then you live in a place that's within your means.

I wonder what rating she will give it on Tripadvisor.

The solution is not more houses in Dublin, the solution is to build better public transport for easier mobility outside of Dublin.

shinzon

keithclancy wrote: »

The benefit of having a semi state company, is that if they don't do a good job, they lose money, people get fired because customers refuse to pay if the service is bad.

Where as in Irish water they get bonuses if the don't perform well., and yes I know the bonuses have been stopped for 2013-2014, but they will return make no mistake about that.

You simply cant compare one countries Water Company with Irish Water, Irish water is a toxic entity filled to the brim with retired county managers on fat cat money, look at what happened when the bonus scheme was stopped, right were out on strike we want them bonuses back. Irish water has not and has never been setup for the interests of the Irish People and fixing the leaks, its just a new revenue stream for the government to payback the bondholders and just like the property tax it will never be used to fix the pipes and if its allowed to continue in any form I have no doubt that the papers will be full of Irish water money diverted here there and everywhere stories in the paper.

Shin

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

Where as in Irish water they get bonuses if the don't perform well., and yes I know the bonuses have been stopped for 2013-2014, but they will return make no mistake about that.

You simply cant compare one countries Water Company with Irish Water, Irish water is a toxic entity filled to the brim with retired county managers on fat cat money, look at what happened when the bonus scheme was stopped, right were out on strike we want them bonuses back. Irish water has not and has never been setup for the interests of the Irish People and fixing the leaks, its just a new revenue stream for the government to payback the bondholders and just like the property tax it will never be used to fix the pipes and if its allowed to continue in any form I have no doubt that the papers will be full of Irish water money diverted here there and everywhere stories in the paper.

Shin

That's the feeling initially when a Public body is made into a Semi State Company in the Netherlands, Germany and Belgium also.

But since its runs on the money people pay for the service the 'fat cats' you mention don't have a leg to stand on.

It's not a unique situation.

shinzon

keithclancy wrote: »

That's the feeling initially when a Public body is made into a Semi State Company in the Netherlands, Germany and Belgium also.

But since its runs on the money people pay for the service the 'fat cats' you mention don't have a leg to stand on.

It's not a unique situation.

the amount of corruption and cronyism around irish water makes it a very unique situation outside of Ireland inside of Ireland its just horses for courses tbh

Shin

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

the amount of corruption and cronyism around irish water makes it a very unique situation outside of Ireland inside of Ireland its just horses for courses tbh

Shin

I'm not really sure what to make of this comment other than your feelings on the matter are based mostly on emotion.

My view would be, since it has so much media coverage, since the information about pay, bonuses and overrunning costs are in the media, I would say it is quite transparent.

It's not like information on the problems within Irish Water came out through Wiki Leaks or something, its a matter of Public record no ?

Tony EH

It was only forced to be "transparent" because of people's questioning and opposition to Irish Water.

The truths only began to appear over time when people investigated properly.