IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

Larbre34

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

No its not wrong. The protests are for the abolition of water tax. Not a change to Irish Water. The organisers of the protests are making that very very clear. I do not support IW in its current form. But I do agree with water charges.

And a protest against water charges, is a demand that the PAYE worker picks up the tab.

If the protest were against the structure of IW, then that would be different. But it is not. Just look at all the banners "water is a human right" etc etc. I have a real problem being seen to support the organisers of these protests, and no way I would join them

Im of the same mind as you with regard to IW, but im of the opposite view as regards the protests.

Its fair to say that not everyone who marched would subscribe chapter and verse to the precise objections or aims of one or other of the protest groups. I would be one. The protests are so large that they encompass all sorts of objections to various aspects of the shambles.

Im protesting my own view, and Ive no problem detailing it to by public reps, which I have.

Saying that any protest is in effect a demand that the PAYE worker pick up the tab is nonsense. The PAYE worker picks up the tab for everything, in part, because thats now taxation and the exchequer works. It is widely recognised that the limit of personal taxation has been reached. The question as to how it is managed is at issue, and that is what I am protesting against.

Streetwalker

Tony EH wrote: »

As long as Irish Water exists I'll be in protest.

I want to see that company dead.

The majority of the population feel the same. No way IW will make it in it's current form.

Tony EH

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

No its not wrong. The protests are for the abolition of water tax. Not a change to Irish Water. The organisers of the protests are making that very very clear. I do not support IW in its current form. But I do agree with water charges.

And a protest against water charges, is a demand that the PAYE worker picks up the tab.

If the protest were against the structure of IW, then that would be different. But it is not. Just look at all the banners "water is a human right" etc etc. I have a real problem being seen to support the organisers of these protests, and no way I would join them

Don't presume YOU can tell ME what I am protesting against.

Grandpa Hassan

Tony EH wrote: »

Don't presume YOU can tell ME what I am protesting against.

The protest organizers are making it pretty clear

Tony EH

Barely There wrote: »

That's all that meters do record.

You missed the other part...

...of course. :rolleyes:

Barely There

Streetwalker wrote: »

You do realise that when you buy stuff there's this thing called tax on it, diesel, cigs, food etc.. It doesn't matter if you work or not you pay, please tell me you realise this

Any shortfall in water funding caused by an abolition of direct charging for water will be made up by an increase in income tax.

If you are for the abolition of water charges, you are also for an equivalent increase in income tax.

Them's the facts.

The only people who benefit from the abolition of water charges are those who don't now, and have no intention of ever working.

There's a few of them in this thread I'd wager.

omega666

Streetwalker wrote: »

You do realise that when you buy stuff there's this thing called tax on it, diesel, cigs, food etc.. It doesn't matter if you work or not you pay, please tell me you realise this

Where do you think the people who don't work get the money to pay for all the above. You guessed it. The PAYE worker.

Daith

omega666 wrote: »

Where do you think the people who don't work get the money to pay for all the above. You guessed it. The PAYE worker.

And before you say PRSI, that doesn't cover you for life.

Duffmiester

IW may fail. It's optional - hmmm, dont think i'll donate.

Our taxes paid for water in the first place. I still pay same tax. And now they want more money.

I'd not protest or dare get arrested as i've a job to attend and status to maintain.

Plus Im afraid how i'd respond to Garda heavy handedness.
If i was attacked (grabbed, pushed, shoved, thrown, thumped, hurled to the ground) by a Garda. Im afraid my natural reaction to defend myself would land me in trouble.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others - is the concern.

A Garda can arrest on a whim and possibly charge you. Imagine your only hope was if someone put it on YouTube.


I'd prob have a panic or heart attack in such a situation.

But im delighted there's plenty others that do protest!

TheChizler

Streetwalker wrote: »

Sigh. Everyone pays for it already.

It's been pointed out several times that those not paying income taxes don't, as they have a net draw of taxes from the exchequer. Whether they be tax evaders/avoiders or unemployed, the latter not necessarily through any fault of their own, and I fully understand that it's an undesirable situation for the vast majority to be in.

The fact is that you can't say 'everybody currently pays' without being in someway incorrect. You could say the general public or taxpayers pay. Not everybody.

And currently those that do pay are not paying equally, you could be paying several times what your neighbour pays equivalently towards water even though your salaries might be relatively similar, depending on tax credits and rate cutoffs etc. The millionaire down the road might be using the same amount of water as you, provided they don't have a pool or something, but be paying many many multiples of what you pay, even though it costs the council the exact same to provide to them as to you. I think this is fine when it comes to immeasurable things like paying your share of road maintenance, street lighting, emergency services, or political representation, but when you have something as tangible and measurable as water it doesn't make sense to pay more for the same thing.

Put it another way, and to use the vital resource/human rights argument, why do the wealthy pay the same as us for food in the local supermarket? Surely they should subsidise the rest of us? It's vital for life, you die without it, it costs the rest of us a significant portion of our income when we're already hard hit with bills and other costs of living.

Why isn't that being argued? I think it's the exact same thing on principle. The only differences are that food isn't piped to our kitchens, and you have a choice when it comes to price and quality. It's an interesting thought experiment. It's good to challenge our views and why we think what we do, it helps us get a better understanding of our rationale for them.

shinzon

Barely There wrote: »

That's all that meters do record.

Oh you mean those meters that are now completely redundant for the time being and any government can change the legislation to lift the cap at any time and people will be bitching and moaning about when rise after rise will come in and sure we should have listened to those pesky protestors at the time.

And don't come back to me about beating the cap the amount of leaks coming upto the meter will put paid to any cap beating the government were bleating on about.

Shin

Barely There

Duffmiester wrote: »

Our taxes paid for water in the first place. I still pay same tax. And now they want more money.

Income taxes were reduced in the budget. This was mainly due to assumptions that funding for water would be through direct charging of most members of society.

The protestors are now seeking to row back on this and get income taxes increased so they don't have to pay.

Barely There

shinzon wrote: »

Oh you mean those meters that are now completely redundant for the time being and any government can change the legislation to lift the cap at any time and people will be bitching and moaning about when rise after rise will come in and sure we should have listened to those pesky protestors at the time.

And don't come back to me about beating the cap the amount of leaks coming upto the meter will put paid to any cap beating the government were bleating on about.

Shin

If water charges increase, then less income tax is required to fund its provision - I'll be delighted by future increases in water charges combined with equivalent decreases in income taxes, as will most PAYE workers.

I can see why those who don't want to work would be against it though.

Duffmiester

We pay for Dole money already, sure adding on the price of water is insignificant.
At 3 euro per person per week. One half of us pays for the other half anyway.
Whats another 3 euro a week compared to 188 already.

Some need it, some choose it.

2 paths in life:
1/ Keep trying. Work, stress, pay mortgage, travel costs, rear family. Do that for 40 years.
Or
2/ Fail, relax, get the dole and free accommadation. Be a good neighbour, see your estate in daytime hours. Be at home, there for the kids. Medical card.

Which is better?

hju6

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Not yet no. Do you think that means it didn't happen?

Not in the over dramatic way portrayed by your hysterical self.

As you say No one was charged,

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

I assumed this answered your question





Shin

Not really, you just pointed to a group of people that you didn't really define.

That was about it.

Little CuChulainn

Streetwalker wrote: »

You do realise that when you buy stuff there's this thing called tax on it, diesel, cigs, food etc.. It doesn't matter if you work or not you pay, please tell me you realise this

You do realise that when you buy stuff using welfare money it is still the PAYE worker paying for it?

Little CuChulainn

hju6 wrote: »

Not in the over dramatic way portrayed by your hysterical self.

As you say No one was charged,

yet

Streetwalker wrote: »

Hired thugs in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN6c2AZ7ES8&feature=player_embedded

Was going well til it ended with the photoshopped picture of the brick thrower.

keithclancy

Duffmiester wrote: »

We pay for Dole money already, sure adding on the price of water is insignificant.
At 3 euro per person per week. One half of us pays for the other half anyway.
Whats another 3 euro a week compared to 188 already.

Some need it, some choose it.

2 paths in life:
1/ Keep trying. Work, stress, pay mortgage, travel costs, rear family. Do that for 40 years.
Or
2/ Fail, relax, get the dole and free accommadation. Be a good neighbour, see your estate in daytime hours. Be at home, there for the kids. Medical card.

Which is better?

I wouldn't call the dole 'life' I would say its more like having a slowly developing mental illness.

If you think you're on easy strasse with the Dole then I'd say its full blown already.

papu

Duffmiester wrote: »

We pay for Dole money already, sure adding on the price of water is insignificant.
At 3 euro per person per week. One half of us pays for the other half anyway.
Whats another 3 euro a week compared to 188 already.

Some need it, some choose it.

2 paths in life:
1/ Keep trying. Work, stress, pay mortgage, travel costs, rear family. Do that for 40 years.
Or
2/ Fail, relax, get the dole and free accommadation. Be a good neighbour, see your estate in daytime hours. Be at home, there for the kids. Medical card.

Which is better?

It's too bad 2/ relies heavily on 1/ for existence.

shinzon

Barely There wrote: »

If water charges increase, then less income tax is required to fund its provision - I'll be delighted by future increases in water charges combined with equivalent decreases in income taxes, as will most PAYE workers.

So lets see how delighted you are then lets start at 800-1000 euro and work from there would you be happy paying that for your water, ive asked this at various intervals across the threads and have gotten no answer as of yet from anyone ive asked it to

And just picking up on something else, your intimating that you are happy to pay water charges only if theres a reduction in income tax to go with it, and if there isn't your not happy to pay it? or youll just pay it regardless cause as you say incessantly your a working man so it doesn't matter to you

Shin

Frank O. Pinion

Barely There wrote: »

So what are you protesting about?

As far as I can understand the march is about the total abolition of water charges.
If successful and as water will still need to be paid for, additional funding will have to come from income taxes to replace what would have come from water charges.

So you're effectively protesting that you'd like to pay more income tax.

I thought you were banned from the After Hours water thread?

shinzon

keithclancy wrote: »

mental illness.

:rolleyes:

God help you if you ever need social assistance wouldnt want you deteriorating mentally or anything, if you really think the dole is a mental illness the I really think you need to see someone I honestly do cause thats just a ridiculous statement to make

Shin

hju6

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

yet

So to your knowledge there is a case being brought to the DPP ?

If not, stop posting lies.

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

So lets see how delighted you are then lets start at 800-1000 euro and work from there would you be happy paying that for your water, ive asked this at various intervals across the threads and have gotten no answer as of yet from anyone ive asked it to

And just picking up on something else, your intimating that you are happy to pay water charges only if theres a reduction in income tax to go with it, and if there isn't your not happy to pay it? or youll just pay it regardless cause as you say incessantly your a working man so it doesn't matter to you

Shin

You mean are you happy to pay a made up number you made up in your head ?

I'm happy to share what I pay and use
Our household usage since 2011

2011/2012 - 380 days - 79 Cubic Meters
2012/2013 - 362 days - 81 Cubic Meters
2013/2014 - 390 days - 86 Cubic Meters

Total Cost for 01-09-2013 - 01-09-2014 322 Euro

Although if we left it the way you want it, then I would pay nothing when living in Ireland for periods of time because I have no income in Ireland and don't pay Irish Motor Tax either.

At least this way I (and other cross border workers) pay something for it.

TheChizler

shinzon wrote: »

So lets see how delighted you are then lets start at 800-1000 euro and work from there would you be happy paying that for your water, ive asked this at various intervals across the threads and have gotten no answer as of yet from anyone ive asked it to

Where's that figure coming from? Roughly speaking a four person family might approach that €800 if they weren't particularly good at conserving water and there was no subsidy (€850,000,000 cost for domestic water/4.7 M population *4 person family = €723, roughly), but why would it go so far above that? Granted there's a small economy of scale that will be lost if people start conserving water, but the cost should drop overall, is it still costs less to process less water.

falan

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

Will Paul Murphy and his fellow travellers condemn the putting of human excrement in to form envelopes?

Is that Paul murphys fault? or is that my fault because we are anti water charge. Ridiculous lol.

shinzon

TheChizler wrote: »

Where's that figure coming from? Roughly speaking a four person family might approach that €800 if they weren't particularly good at conserving water and there was no subsidy (€850,000,000 cost for domestic water/4.7 M population *4 person family = €723, roughly), but why would it go so far above that? Granted there's a small economy of scale that will be lost if people start conserving water, but the cost should drop overall, is it still costs less to process less water.

As with everything the price rises once the cap is lifted and it will be lifted IW will be going to the cer as often as legally possible and saying Sir Please can we have some more which will be duly granted as always

Don't be fooled by the whole water will be at affordable prices guff, the minute the eyes off the ball up and up it will go, I think everyones so busy defending the indefensible no ones actually sat down and thought of the number that they say I cant pay this charge, which no one has still answered me btw

Shin

Tony EH

shinzon wrote: »

As with everything the price rises once the cap is lifted and it will be lifted IW will be going to the cer as often as legally possible and saying Sir Please can we have some more which will be duly granted as always

Don't be fooled by the whole water will be at affordable prices guff, the minute the eyes off the ball up and up it will go, I think everyones so busy defending the indefensible no ones actually sat down and thought of the number that they say I cant pay this charge, which no one has still answered me btw

Shin

There seems to be a few people just blindly hoping for the best, while ignoring past track records.

Incredible really.

falan

I doubt at any point she thought she was going to die. besides she probably had loads of room to kick back and relax. It wasn't the terrorism described by some mainstream media and believed by some idiots.