**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

listermint

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Ace2007 wrote: »

That's fair enough - at least you gave your opinion.

Just one point last point - anybody can ask the questions, it's the real answers that they need to give when in power - higher taxes to pay for the removal of say property tax, higher taxes to pay for the water - these will not go down well at all with people.

They have often used the expression "People cannot afford to pay" when talking about taxes like property/water - I'd be very interested to know their feelings and thoughts on what they would do - if people could afford to pay - i.e. if in 10 years time Sinn Fein get into power and the country is back on it's feet - will they scrape the taxes.

I say 10 years because i don't think they will win the next election, but they are growing as party. maybe i'm wrong, but if i am - higher taxes are on the way

If anyone can ask questions let me pose this one.

As the largest party in opposition during the boomy times where we're FG asking all the 'questions' when poor decision after boomier poor decision was being made. Only to turn around and blame everything on FF.

Of course anyone can ask questions of course.

Ace2007

listermint wrote: »

If anyone can ask questions let me pose this one.

As the largest party in opposition during the boomy times where we're FG asking all the 'questions' when poor decision after boomier poor decision was being made. Only to turn around and blame everything on FF.

Of course anyone can ask questions of course.

A bad decision only really becomes a bad decision after many years - there were many - don't get me wrong but it's hard to voice opposition when the Irish as a whole were partying non stop.

For example we had many economist on tv telling people of Ireland the property bubble was going to burst - how many actually listened? No one cared about it - everyone was enjoying themselves.

Hard times and people now listen to the opposition - because they cannot afford to party - those for example who cannot afford to pay water taxes etc now - probably ignore the economist about the property bubble.

Anyway time for bed

Irish Steve

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

OK, it's time for a recap, and to fan the flames a little more in some areas.

The underlying problem is that despite all the talk, inquiries, questions and everything else, we still don't actually have a true figure for the real cost of water. That's why the politicians can't tell us what we're going to pay for it, they don't really know what it's costing in the first place.

I'm going to expand that a little, bear with me for a few moments.

We have a figure that the Local authorities spend on water and waste water, but given the way they are structured, and the likely waste that is going on within their structures (IW wanted 1700, they got 4500), working out what water really is costing, rather than the spin price that IW are looking for, is impossible.

Then there's the issue that a massive percentage of the water produced is not being used by the potential users, but lost, so the true cost of water (if the system was working as it should be) is significantly lower again.

The figure that my LA is charging non domestic users is about half of the rate that IW are seeking, and their waste water disposal charge is also about half of the IW figure, though there is a standing charge from the LA of just under €100 per annum, regardless of usage.

So, what's going on.

Well, the first thing that's going on is that the Political system is trying to pull a fast one on all of us by putting water off the books, and then getting off the books funding to run it, the intention being that the Troika/IMF will then be happy to see a reduction in the cost of state services and our deficit.

BUT, and it's another BIG BUT, the reality is that the cost of state services will not have been reduced, they will still be costing every bit as much as they do now, or even more, the only difference is that some of the services (water now, who knows what to follow) will be being funded via a different route in order to massage the books to keep the EU/ECB/Troika happy that "we are meeting our obligations" and reducing our deficit.

Bollix, bluntly, we're NOT meeting our obligations, we're fiddling the system to make it LOOK that way, and the only people that might be taken in are the sheep that are not listening or watching what the Golden Circle are doing in order to protect their privileged status and obscene payment levels.

It's very interesting that the only way the IMF/Troika will accept off the books operations is if a value of over €300M Euro is involved, and guess what the targets for IW income are. Now why does that not surprise me.

Nice try guys, you were hoping we were not watching, but you made such a bollix of it, we're more than watching, we're now coming out of our corner fighting your arrogance and duplicity, and there are increasing numbers of us that are determined to stop your excesses and deception across the board, not just with IW, and to restore the power of the people to the people, and break the Golden Circle.

Now today, in among the other distractions in the thread, which I'm sure wasn't his real agenda, DX has raised another valid objection to the way that IW is being set up, the whole aspect of group water schemes, the right way to deal with them is that they should be incorporated into the same systems as all other water users, under the same charging structure.

The big and still very much unresolved issue is what system?

IW is unacceptable to many, not because they don't want to pay for water in a different way than they have been but because of the corrupt and crony manner in which it was set up, staffed, structured, and implemented. We already have too many overpaid and ineffective people at high levels in state services, and now, they've added another level of inefficiency and bureaucracy to an already overloaded and over managed system that has no relation to the reality of the requirement.

Then there's the whole bonus culture, expenses, special payment, and all the other things that SIPTU and other trade unions will fight tooth and nail not to lose, but guess what guys, the worm has turned, and we're now expecting and demanding that we get value for money, the days of corruption and all the other things that have been happening for generations are over, because we can no longer afford the cost of allowing it to continue.

When I look at the numbers of people involved in some of the state services, what they are being paid, and the manner in which we are now making that situation worse than it is now, I find myself wondering if the people should not be sending an urgent plea to the IMF/Troika asking them to come back now, and take over on our behalf, as it has become clear that our leaders are not capable of delivering the reforms that are desperately needed in order to reform the state and direction of the Irish Economy, despite having promised to do so.

The return of the IMF/Troika might actually be quicker and cheaper than waiting for the next bubble to burst, or the next Euro crisis. which on present signs is not a possible problem it's a given, it's only a case of when, rather than if.

If the IMF come back in to sort out the economy, then all state employees will be out of a job, and some will be rehired on new contracts, but you may be sure that in the higher grades, they will be far less generous than they are now, and they will not be jobs for life as they are now.

Hopefully, the Golden circle will also be out of work, some will be rehired on more appropriate levels of pay, and some will have to live like the rest of us, on the standard level of benefits or pensions, rather than on their protected and insulated levels of enhanced benefit that they are getting now.

Poetic justice would be that people like Bertie, and others of his time who were the architects of the last bubble burst would lose their obscene payments, and have to live on the same sort of benefits, (or pensions) that they deemed acceptable and adequate for the "general populations". They clearly thought such levels of benefit were adequate, so they shouldn't complain if they are now also required to accept those levels, and live on them.

Harsh? Maybe.

Appropriate? Yes, in as much as while it would be a massive and incredibly more painful shock than we have experienced so far, it would hopefully restore a sensible balance to the economy, and to the every increasing divide between the state and private sector that exists, and is getting wider and more visible with every budget that happens.

While the IMF running things for a while would be incredibly painful, it would also be over in a much shorter time scale, and have a much better long term effect on our competitive position in the world economy, and it would also hopefully mean that in the longer term, we all would be able to have more of our money to spend the way we want to do it.

I'd also like to see the IMF/Troika get closely involved in the restructuring of the health services, and the replanning of the rest of the semi state sector.

As I mentioned earlier, when it's looked at closely, we don't need, and certainly can't afford any more, the level of decentralisation that happened a long time ago with Local Authorities.

We certainly don't need 26 county managers each earning at least €130K, some nearer €200K, for a population of under 5 Million, and all the other high level senior management roles that are duplicated many times over across the country at massive cost.

In the same vein paying somewhere around €400K per annum for the head of the HSE is so far out of line and out of order, it's not even laughable, it's grossly offensive and an insult to the people who work so hard at the lower end of the system for a fraction of that pay, the HSE has never started to reduce the over staffing that was built in as a result of the merging of the old health boards.

The old county structures go back to the 1850's and are based around the judicial boundaries, and a lot of that will have been down to the distances that those judges could travel in a day on horseback.

We now have motorways, and modern communications, and computers, all of which should be being used far more widely to manage and operate our state services, with terminals available at places like libraries, citizens advice offices, perhaps even post offices, and people in those locations trained to help those with no computers, or those who are not computer literate, and those numbers are declining rapidly, I'm nearly at retiring age, and I don't have an issue with computers being used far more widely for state services, it might actually improve things in some areas, they for sure couldn't get much worse. County level local authorities are no longer an essential part of the management of the country, 5 regional authorities, covering the provinces, with a separate unit for the Dublin area would be far more effective, and cost efficient, and even then, some services, like public libraries, really don't need more than a national management structure to run them.

I'd have to admit, I've not really looked too closely at some of these issues until now, I was prepared to trust the political system to do what was right, but the IW fiasco has changed my attitude, and opinion, and the more I dig, and the closer I look the more I realise that our failure as a nation to really engage with politics has allowed the Golden Circle to very significantly abuse their position, and to very much ensure that their own positions were far more favoured and enhanced to the detriment of all of us.

That has to now change, and the privileged position and power of the Golden Circle has to be broken, and in such a way that they can never again get back into the position that they have been in for the last 20 years.

IW is the final straw that has broken the system, I've just been looking at some of the comments that were made in various papers over the weekend, and there can be no doubt that at last, Enda and his party have been given a clear message that cannot be denied, the only thing outstanding now is their response.

It may not be enough, even if they do back down on IW, the damage has been done, pandora's box has been well and truly opened, and when the People have looked inside, they have been appalled and disgusted by the issues that have at last been brought out into the sharp focus of daylight.

It should have been done sooner, if it had, maybe just maybe, some of the worst pain of recent years would have been avoided.

What is clear is that many more people are now becoming truly engaged with the system. hopefully, the result will be that in future, there will be no way for the political system to abuse the people in the way that it has been doing over the last 20 years.

I will close with an appeal to everyone that is reading this thread,

Please keep the pressure on your local representatives, and make it clear to them that the IW issue is only the thin end of a wedge that we are no longer prepared to tolerate or accept.

Tell them that the time for change and reform has come and gone, and if the Government is not prepared to listen to the people, they are living on borrowed time.

What's going to be even more challenging, and difficult to resolve, is which manifestos to believe at the next election, and how to vote in that election.

I don't have any answers on that right now, I don't actually see a clear choice for the next Government, partly because I don't see any party that has shown any plans that can be trusted, and partly because I don't trust many of the present structure to be honest with the people.

Going Forward

I do not want to pay for water in any way

+1. Well said.

Too many home truths there for any politician to handle though.

-Keeping figures off the books, its a bit like relying on emigration to keep unemployment figures down.

BigBrownBear

BigBrownBear wrote: »

I'll rephrase that. Based on conversations with family members and work colleagues there will be a substantial amount that signs up to IW near to the dead line.
These are people who didnt intend to pay weeks ago

Hey Big Bear you're wrong there..

I returned my form, put the bloody PPS no on it and all (cos I thought it was inevitable etc etc) - then the sheer level of incompetence, greed, cronyism, arrogance and confusion which has been exposed since has made me 100% sure I will NOT pay these charges!! And a hell of a lot of people I know who actuallly returned their packs feel the same!

So Leo Varadkar and others can talk about compliance and whatever % signed up. That doesn't mean they will pay one cent. Irish Water is a monster - just like the HSE. Its not Facebook or Google but acts like it is with bonuses and gyms.

People are stupid if they think any "carrots" being offered like €100 off for everyone and tax relief is anything other than getting us all on the books! Ask they what we will be paying in 5 years times! This Company is going to be a monopoly - no competition - so we will have no choice. I for one am scared. I'm on a fixed income for the rest of my life and I'm sick to death of all these taxes, levies and bills.

(and I agree with a previous writer who said the Property Tax was the one we should have been screaming about - fundamentallly I agree with paying for water from a conservation point of view - but they can sing for it now!)

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Ace2007 wrote: »

More fool you for believing their promises - and there lies the problem - any party can tell you they will do this and that - but the truth is - water is going to be paid for one way or the other.

Your not the first that has ignore my question, who are you going to put into power then that is going to get rid of the tax

Sinn Fein - no, they stated that they believe water should be paid for - through general taxation as before
Independents - no - many have said they believe people should pay for water

So whose left?


Water tax is a fair tax imo, the tax that people should have gotten angry about and taken to the streets in their numbers was the property tax - as this tax is driven by factors which the public have little or no way of controlling - water you can control what you use.

Just to add - it's interesting the councils who are opposing irish water, are some which refused to reduce the property tax on houses in their areas when they had the opportunity to do so - care about the people - or care about the votes - it's clear - anything they can change - they won't - and anything they have no power to change they'll pretend they do.

FYP

Streetwalker

I agree with metered water charges

BigBrownBear wrote: »

I'll rephrase that. Based on conversations with family members and work colleagues there will be a substantial amount that signs up to IW near to the dead line.
These are people who didnt intend to pay weeks ago

Yes yes of course.

twowheelsgood

Irish Steve wrote: »

Well, the first thing that's going on is that the Political system is trying to pull a fast one on all of us by putting water off the books, and then getting off the books funding to run it, the intention being that the Troika/IMF will then be happy to see a reduction in the cost of state services and our deficit.

A common claim being made by some is that the “ordinary” people cannot bear any more cuts. If the government are pulling a fast one, the result of which is that we more quickly get to a point where further curs are unnecessary, they what exactly is the complaint?

And it is not really a fiddle. The total amount that needs to be borrowed (by whatever means) will be substantially less. If we pay 1 billion in direct water charges then that is 1 billion less we have to borrow.

Streetwalker

I agree with metered water charges

BigBrownBear wrote: »

IMO given the fact that a single person wont pay more than e80 a year and a family e210(?) there will be a compliance rate around the figure of the household charge

1. Nobody believes in 5 years time we will be paying anything like that.

2. Maybe in the circle of friends you move in the compliance will be above average but I can guarantee you that's not the case in most areas.

Banjo String

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Ace2007 wrote: »

The majority of people? there was an estimated 150k people protesting recently - as quote by the campaigners - that is less than 5% of the Irish population.

A large proportion of people actually don't care about whose in power - close to 1m irish people eligible to vote in 2011 didn't - i wonder how many of them are now complaining about the water charges???

Meanwhile over a million people households still haven't signed up to engage with them.

How do you guys constantly forget this

Ace2007

Tinkersbell wrote: »

FYP

So those who pay highest level of tax pay bigger proportion and those who don't pay tax don't pay anything?

So an unemployed family can use as much as they like and pay nothing

Whereas a single person paying top rate of tax is getting fleeced?

Fair?

Ace2007

Banjo String wrote: »

Meanwhile over a million people households still haven't signed up to engage with them.

How do you guys constantly forget this

How about you post the exact figures ? Instead of saving over s million ?

Banjo String

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Ace2007 wrote: »

How about you post the exact figures ? Instead of saving over s million ?

Well. You see. That's the problem.

Last we heard from the Mr oh so competent Tierney, he reckoned 800k returned their packs.

He didn't break down those figures, as to how many returned them to say they had their own supply gws/private wells, how many returned them with some kind of profanity written on them etc etc.

"returned" doesn't mean signed up.

Meanwhile the deadline was pushed back TWICE now, all sorts of carrots have been dangled in front of us, the latest being a hundred euro payment....

It's nearly at the stage now were Irish Water will pay us for the privilege of being their "customers".

See you Dec 10th.

Daith

Ace2007 wrote: »

So an unemployed family can use as much as they like and pay nothing

Whereas a single person paying top rate of tax is getting fleeced?

Fair?

Indeed. It can't be a tax. It needs to be paid by all.

Ace2007

Banjo String wrote: »

Well. You see. That's the problem.

Last we heard from the Mr oh so competent Tierney, he reckoned 800k returned their packs.

He didn't break down those figures, as to how many returned them to say they had their own supply gws/private wells, how many returned them with some kind of profanity written on them etc etc.

"returned" doesn't mean signed up.

Meanwhile the deadline was pushed back TWICE now, all sorts of carrots have been dangled in front of us, the latest being a hundred euro payment....

It's nearly at the stage now were Irish Water will pay us for the privilege of being their "customers".

See you Dec 10th.

So you can't actually factual prove what your saying but will use it in argument and way

I said 150k turned up to protest - a figure supplied by the campaigners - so probably overestimated but people are happy to use this figure which is less than 5% of the population

I stated that about 30% of the population who could vote in 2011 didn't - this is factual - that's near a million people - who didn't care who was in government but most of who are probably now complaining.

Banjo String

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Ace2007 wrote: »

So you can't actually factual prove what your saying but will use it in argument and way

I said 150k turned up to protest - a figure supplied by the campaigners - so probably overestimated but people are happy to use this figure which is less than 5% of the population

I stated that about 30% of the population who could vote in 2011 didn't - this is factual - that's near a million people - who didn't care who was in government but most of who are probably now complaining.

I can factually say what John Tierney released, that (either way) meant 1 million had not engaged with IW.

Do you dispute the figures he released?

jank

Here is what is going to happen. Half the country gets free water and the other half have to pay for their own and others...

893bet

400k people were going to see Garth brooks last summer. I assume not one of these is in the "can afford to pay" catagory.

Ace2007

893bet wrote: »

400k people were going to see Garth brooks last summer. I assume not one of these is in the "can afford to pay" catagory.

There are one or two on here that where adament that concert would go ahead - but we all know what happened there.

Barely There

jank wrote: »

Here is what is going to happen. Half the country gets free water and the other half have to pay for their own and others...

Indeed.
IW is here to stay, but the concessions from Govt will continue as more and more of those who have spent their lives milking the State are excluded from paying.
As per usual, the middle-income PAYE workers will be expected to take up the slack.

The concept of broadening of the tax-base will be quietly forgotten in a wave of political expediency.

shinzon

I do not want to pay for water in any way

The view from the Ivory tower must be breathtaking, I see weve gone back to the protestors are scrounging unemployed scummers argument again which simply isn't true.

Shin

Red Pepper

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Barely There wrote: »

Indeed.
IW is here to stay, but the concessions from Govt will continue as more and more of those who have spent their lives milking the State are excluded from paying.
As per usual, the middle-income PAYE workers will be expected to take up the slack.

The concept of broadening of the tax-base will be quietly forgotten in a wave of political expediency.

I am a high-income PAYE worker and I oppose Irish Water. The difference between me and you is I am not prepared to continually take it in the ass for a corrupt government of self serving wasters.

Irish Steve

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Barely There wrote: »

Indeed.
IW is here to stay, but the concessions from Govt will continue as more and more of those who have spent their lives milking the State are excluded from paying.
As per usual, the middle-income PAYE workers will be expected to take up the slack.

The concept of broadening of the tax-base will be quietly forgotten in a wave of political expediency.

That's what is so depressing about the whole scenario. Enda went BAAAAAAAA, and all the sheep came running and voted as they'd been told to vote, rather than voting in accordance with the manifesto they'd been elected on, and in the manner in which their conscience told them was appropriate, and that attitude from the majority has allowed the Golden Circle to entrench their already unassailable and inappropriate position.

I have to wonder who is actually "milking" the system, is it the unemployed person getting €200 a week, or the top civil servant getting over €6700 a week, and that figure doesn't include subsequent payments for pension or lump sums.

Most of our representatives are unwilling and unable to recognise that the manner in which our system now works means that they might as well not bother even attending, as the result would be exactly the same, their presence is only giving formal recognition to the supposedly benign dictatorship that is the reality of modern Irish Politics.

Going Forward

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Barely There wrote: »

Indeed.
IW is here to stay, but the concessions from Govt will continue as more and more of those who have spent their lives milking the State are excluded from paying.
As per usual, the middle-income PAYE workers will be expected to take up the slack.

The concept of broadening of the tax-base will be quietly forgotten in a wave of political expediency.

Political cowardice.

And stupidity all round; the time for asking the public for a contribution towards water provision was on signing the bailout loan application, not at a time when the government is acting big by stating the country's future is so bright, and that they single handedly freed the country from the grip of the Troika.

The irony is that things will now pretty much revert to the way things were, except we'll be left with the glorious creation of Fine Fail's absurd and uneconomical billing quango.

gladrags

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Irish Steve wrote: »

That's what is so depressing about the whole scenario. Enda went BAAAAAAAA, and all the sheep came running and voted as they'd been told to vote, rather than voting in accordance with the manifesto they'd been elected on, and in the manner in which their conscience told them was appropriate, and that attitude from the majority has allowed the Golden Circle to entrench their already unassailable and inappropriate position.

I have to wonder who is actually "milking" the system, is it the unemployed person getting €200 a week, or the top civil servant getting over €6700 a week, and that figure doesn't include subsequent payments for pension or lump sums.

Most of our representatives are unwilling and unable to recognise that the manner in which our system now works means that they might as well not bother even attending, as the result would be exactly the same, their presence is only giving formal recognition to the supposedly benign dictatorship that is the reality of modern Irish Politics.

The rise of independents,and SF, are a good omen.

If the trend continues,with the three old corrupt parties losing their grip,it could mean real alternitaves could emerge.

There are definitely strong poll indications,on a consistent basis,that people have had enough.

The resistance to change by the supporters of the established corrupt parties,is essentially self centred,status quo,and fear and loathing.

Very little in the way of progressive democratic debate,or forwarding plans to end the corruption and cronyism.

Which is at the heart of the democratic demise,in society.

There is a crack in everything...thats how the light gets in.

BoJack Horseman

I would like Irish Water as a company to be restructured

gladrags wrote: »

The resistance to change by the supporters of the established corrupt parties,is essentially self centred,status quo,and fear and loathing.

Hang the hell on.

Our choices are:
The current government, corrupt & flawed as they are
Or

The Shinners, whose policies change with the wind, their ideology is the form of a bandwagon.
And/or:
A self declared amalgam of disparate communist parties.
And/or:
single issue independents.

I'm happy to resist the change your offering.
Just not for the reasons you assume

Quin_Dub

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Hang the hell on.

Our choices are:
The current government, corrupt & flawed as they are
Or

The Shinners, whose policies change with the wind, their ideology is the form of a bandwagon.
And/or:
A self declared amalgam of disparate communist parties.
And/or:
single issue independents.

I'm happy to resist the change your offering.
Just not for the reasons you assume

Exactly - More Independents is actually awful for governance - We'd be like Italy in the 90's , elections every few months with no legislation getting done because agreement can't be reached on anything...

As for SF and the various other hard-right parties. Electing them does not and will not bring change to how Ireland's governmental systems work.

All it does is to replace one set of incompetents with another.. SF will still have Quangos , will still give jobs to their party supporters - Do all of the things that people are complaining about.

They'll wrap it up in "new broom" guff about how they are clearing out the corruption of the former government etc. etc. etc. , but does anyone really believe that if a position on some board or other is available that SF (or any one else tbh) would give that position to somebody who is not a party supporter , regardless of their qualifications?

Change for changes sake isn't good , it's reactionary and ultimately pointless

Barely There

gladrags wrote: »

The rise of independents,and SF, are a good omen.

:rolleyes:

A bunch of economic illiterates and former terrorists.

Sure they'll have the budget deficit magicked away in jig time and we can all live happily ever after on the fruits of the money trees.

Ace2007

Folk though about real alternatives - please explain this to me

Sinn Fein have said people should pay for water - fact

Independents have said people should pay for water - fact

Income tax has fallen since last budget

Do are sinn fein good by to raise taxes??? Do people want this

Barely There

Ace2007 wrote: »

Sinn Fein have said people should pay for water - fact

Independents have said people should pay for water - fact

No, you don't understand

They mean other people should pay.