Swimming for Tri Beginners

griffin100

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Hope everyone enjoyed the kick week This week its more familiar territory, the focus will be on a good catch and pull. We've been doing the drills for ages, you are well used to them, but I'm going to take a timeout to expand on what your catch and pull should be about.

Catch and Pull: this is your engine, the essential part to make you move through the water. Swimmers at all levels spend thousands of hours refining, readdressing, fixing, elements of their C&P. In the absence of a dedicated coach showing you correct C&P, some of these analogies might be helpful:

Your hand entry should be as though you were spearing a small fish ahead of you just under the water.

Imagine you are lying face down in snow, and trying to pull yourself forward- you arm digs into the snow and propels you onwards.

Your forearm is a fulcrum- it stays still in the water at it levers your body forward.

Imagine you are pulling from your wrist.

You are swimming in a pool full of inflatable beachballs. With each stroke, you are scooping a ball under the water, and back out behind you.

Pull is just that, pulling with your hand- if entering with a flat hand was the right thing to do, it would be called "push".

As your hand exits the water, show your palm to a person behind you.

Sometimes flicking your thumb to thigh as you exit can ensure you don't exit too early.

As my 6 year old tells me, Dad you got to reach forward, catch the fish and put it in your pocket

and still ricky villa

Woo hoo hoo hoo!

A happy bunny this morning. First TT was quickest as I made some schoolboy errors in the 2nd one (reaching for walls I hadn't got to yet)
I repeated the TT day from Week 3 so it would be realistic as this TT was Christmas week


100m Time Trial|Nov '14|Dec|Jan|Feb|March|April|May|June'15
ainsyjnr|1:47|1:38||||||
strummer_ie|2:10|||||||
career move|2:49|2:38|2:32|||||
Rainbow Kirby|1:57*|1:53||||||
ToTriOrNot |2:09|||||||
bart86 |1:51|1.48|2:00|||||
andstillrickyvilla |2:38|2:23||||||

and still ricky villa

Kurt Godel wrote: »

This might be of interest as a mid-term goal for some here. Swim Ireland will have their "Swim for a Mile"* day Nationwide, the 3rd week in May. Details here. There will be coaching clinics held a month before the event, which might be handy to get someone qualified to give your stroke the once-over. Cost to register for SFAM is €25.

Feck it, I'm in. Anything for a t-shirt that mentions an achievement but not the specifics of how you did.....

Steroo

I'm in same boat as andstillrickyvilla I just did week 3 TT session. I was very apprehensive & had to stop briefly the fist time but not the 2nd. First go was 1:56 & second was 1:52 so I'm happy with that
Hope I did the table right.

100m Time Trial|Nov '14|Dec|Jan|Feb|March|April|May|June'15
ainsyjnr|1:47|1:38||||||
strummer_ie|2:10|||||||
career move|2:49|2:38|2:32|||||
Rainbow Kirby|1:57*|1:53||||||
ToTriOrNot |2:09|||||||
bart86 |1:51|1.48|2:00|||||
andstillrickyvilla |2:38|2:23||||||
steroo ||||1:52||||

MojoMaker

That's pretty good - didn't you say you had trouble finishing a length a few weeks ago?

Steroo

MojoMaker wrote: »

That's pretty good - didn't you say you had trouble finishing a length a few weeks ago?

Thanks, yea I had to stop each length for a breather. but I've been at it 4/5 days a week since & doing plenty of drills & getting some coach guidance so it's working slowly but surely. But the Bilateral Breathing went out the window for this TT not sure if that's normal? I was all to one side.

Kurt Godel

Steroo wrote: »

Thanks, yea I had to stop each length for a breather. but I've been at it 4/5 days a week since & doing plenty of drills & getting some coach guidance so it's working slowly but surely. But the Bilateral Breathing went out the window for this TT not sure if that's normal? I was all to one side.

That's great progress, well done. The one-on-one must have paid off big time.

Rule of thumb for a TT; get the oxygen in any way possible! So breathing every 2 is fine for a TT- just make sure you do most of your swimming bilateral.

Steroo

Kurt Godel wrote: »

That's great progress, well done. The one-on-one must have paid off big time.

Rule of thumb for a TT; get the oxygen in any way possible! So breathing every 2 is fine for a TT- just make sure you do most of your swimming bilateral.

Thanks Kurt. And thanks for your overall work on this thread it's a great help to so many of us.

Kurt Godel

Please stick down your-reach-for-the-sky SWIM goals for 2015... these should be your "dream out load" aims, best case scenario swim achievements

rainbow kirby

Complete an IM-distance swim, HIM swim under 40 minutes, get my 100m TT time down into the 1:40s and 400m down to low 7s.

iwillhtfu

Not to drown following this plan is foremost

Sub 10 min sprint distance but probably not achievable closest I've gotten is 11:xx hopefully these kick drills will help me pick up the pace.

I'd like to see a 60-70 min IM distance and I've a background goal of a 5k swim (Time not essential just for kicks)

Working nationwide and new baby en-route will be interesting but sure making excuses is the easy part I've loads of them

and still ricky villa

Last year I underestimated and overreached so I'm keeping it simple and achievable:
1 - Swim more. 2014 was an average of a paltry 1200m a week. 5000m average for 2015 so far
2 - Sub 2 min 100m eventually averaged over longer distances
3 - Sub 2:45 Oly at DCT by taking a lump off the swim (working hard on the turbo too)
4 - Race more

willow46

Wow great to see this Kurt Godel. Impressed with this advice. I grew up as a competitive swimmer and qualified coach and i see all the time so called Tri coaches giving out complete rubbish advice. So much so that i stopped coaching and now just do my own thing. Great to see your videos on technique as a big focus. Guys ask me all the time in the pool why do so many sets of drills, why not bang out 4X1000m and thats your Ironman done?
I hope everyone really puts your advice into practice as any qualified coach/teacher will tell you that technique far out-weighs distance…. Well done…

Kurt Godel

willow46 wrote: »

Wow great to see this Kurt Godel. Impressed with this advice. I grew up as a competitive swimmer and qualified coach and i see all the time so called Tri coaches giving out complete rubbish advice. So much so that i stopped coaching and now just do my own thing. Great to see your videos on technique as a big focus. Guys ask me all the time in the pool why do so many sets of drills, why not bang out 4X1000m and thats your Ironman done?
I hope everyone really puts your advice into practice as any qualified coach/teacher will tell you that technique far out-weighs distance…. Well done…

Cheers for that willow46. When I first started swimming a couple of years back, my goal was to increase distance, which to my mind meant swimming further each time I got in the pool. Collective advice I got from this forum put a stop to that; learn to swim correctly before you swim long, and that means drills. I got some priceless advice on my training log from posters here, got swim coached for a while from people here, and just last week had my stroke analysed by someone I wouldn't even have met but for this forum. The Tri forum is a great resource, and is very useful for anyone looking to improve. My idea behind this thread was to "collect" any of the useful info I've received, so that other newbies could likewise benefit. There's a lot of advice being received in the background, which is reflected in the weekly sets, and its a communal effort to get people who are interesting in swimming faster, swimming faster.

Kurt Godel

And right on cue, we have a nice week that has form as its focus

Day 1
200 easy
4*50 k with board (try one without the board)
4*100 off 2:30 (or whatever your slow pace is)
1 min rest
4*100 off 2:25 (slow pace minus 5 seconds)
1 min rest
4*100 off 2:20 (slow pace minus 10 seconds; this pace should feel "steady")
1 min rest
4*100 off 2:15 (slow pace minus 15 seconds; this pace should feel "fast")
1 min rest
200 easy
Steady pace for each 100- that means the first couple of sets should be easy/comfortable, tougher on the 3rd, and you'll probably be cursing me on the 4th set but if you could keep those curse's consistent for each 100 during the final set that'd be appreciated.

Day 2
200 easy
4*50 k with board (try one without the board)
4*50 sw
4*50 fingertip
4*50 sw
4*50 pb
4*50 sw
4*50 armpit tap
4*50 sw
4*50 fist
4*50sw
200 swim down
15 sec rest after each drill, all done at comfortable pace.

Day 3*
200 easy
4*50 k with board
4*500 steady, overall time matters less than hitting steady 100's for each 500: this is NOT a TT
200 easy

*Except for Rainbow Kirby, iwillhtfu, andstillrickyvilla; who do as their Day3:

Rainbow Kirby
Your goal in a Tri is 1,900m in under 40mins. So this week you do 1,900 as;
100 off 2:00
200 off 4:00
300 off 6:00
2 mins rest
400 off 8:00
2 mins rest
400 off 8:00
2 mins rest
300 off 6:00
200 off 4:00
("off" means you do the 100m in 1:45, so you have 15s rest. If you do it in 1:55, you have 5s rest. Try and keep the pace around 1:50/100m from the start, as it will feel harder as you progress)

iwillhtfy
Your goal is 750 in sub 10 mins. Right at the moment that's a big ask, but its good to aim high. Of course its achievable; thats down to how much you want it and the work you are willing to put in. We need a marker, so lets start with 11:30. You will need to keep these consistent: if you go off too fast you will regret it later, so keep the brain engaged. So this week you do 15*50m off 46.

andstillrickyvilla
You're already working on 1; 3 & 4 are down to you later in the year; lets approach No. 2. You want 2:00 per 100m over longer distances, and right at the moment your 100m TT is 2:23, so that is what you are capable of swimming 100m in. This week you do:
3*100 off 2:30,
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:30,
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:30,
1 min rest

career move

Kurt what do you mean when you say do one of the kicks without the board? Should I have my arms out in front of me as if I had a board?

Kurt Godel

career move wrote: »

Kurt what do you mean when you say do one of the kicks without the board? Should I have my arms out in front of me as if I had a board?

Superman. Or superwoman in your case, arms out in front, one hand on the other, kick for propulsion. It's hard, but a great lesson in streamline.

blueduck74

Just jumping on here, I signed up for the Ironman 70.3 on a whim, I a runner but wanted to add some other things still don't own a bike, and just started swimming ....Maybe I am a bit delusional to think it is all going to pull together for August but will have fun trying!

Swim Experience: started 5 weeks ago in the local pool - terrified of water
Can you breath bilaterally?: not for long periods but learning at the moment only comfortable breathing every second stroke on my right side.
Current 100m time: probably 3mins
Current 400m time: no idea
Tri race experience: none
Open Water experience: none
Furthest distance swam: 1.2km last Friday which involved being in the deep end numerous times , yah me !
Any Other Relevant details: I am not afraid of pushing myself and hard work but I need to do a 1.9km swim in open water by August in under 1:10 (didn't realise the time was so strict when I signed up thought I would have a leisurely swim and make it up on the run.)
need to learn to train smart not hard.

and still ricky villa

100m Time Trial|Nov '14|Dec|Jan|Feb|March|April|May|June'15
ainsyjnr|1:47|1:38||||||
strummer_ie|2:10|||||||
career move|2:49|2:38|2:32|||||
Rainbow Kirby|1:57*|1:53||||||
ToTriOrNot |2:09|||||||
bart86 |1:51|1.48|2:00|||||
iwillhtfu |###|1:36|1:42
andstillrickyvilla |2:38|2:23|2:19|||||
steroo ||||1:52||||


Week 9 Day 1 - Done!
Amazed at the difference the fist drill made. The following TT made me feel like my hands were shovels as I powered down the pool. Feared the fist with no PB drill but found it not much of a struggle. Does this point to my hands not doing as much as I thought they were?
First TT in the table as I was distracted by being late for work and the 2nd TT came in at 2:24 (which is still a mighty difference from a couple of months ago!)
I look forward to the drill that will turn my feet into propellers

Kurt Godel

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Feared the fist with no PB drill but found it not much of a struggle. Does this point to my hands not doing as much as I thought they were?

It's probably that you're using your hand to better effect, after fist drill. The drill forces you to use your forearm for propulsion, and you quickly learn what works, or you sink. When you reintroduce the hand, the forearm position has improved, so the hand is working optimally.

When you do fist drill, the forearm needs to get to this \\\\\ position quickly in the water, to begin the pull, then moves to |||||, and then exits /////. A lot of swimmers enter like

---

forearm, perhaps with their hand tilted slightly, and thats what the fist drill helps to correct.

Bart86

I have been quite busy. I haven´t had the time to comment here, I have done all the sessions, thought . Will start with Week 13


Day 2 of week 12
200m warmup
4*(25 kick, 25 catch-up)
4*200m easy pace, 20 secs rest
4*200m steady pace, 20 secs rest
4*200m fast pace, 20 sec rest
(the idea is each set of 4 is about 10 secs or so faster than the previous)
100m kick
200m swim down (incorporate some easy backstroke)

I had to amend it. I did 3*200 on all sets instead of 4. I was wrecked last week and I knew I wouldn´t be able to finish it doing 4 sets, Does it count as cheating??
Even so, my last 200 metes, my arms were very sore.

Goals for 2015.
I signed up for a few Triathlons (1 Sprint/ 3 Olympic distance). My objective is swim between 33 – 36min the Olympic one

@Kurt, Thank you again for all advice!

Steroo

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Please stick down your-reach-for-the-sky SWIM goals for 2015... these should be your "dream out load" aims, best case scenario swim achievements

To make it out of the sea (within 50 mins) in one piece in Dublin 70.3 in Aug.

and still ricky villa

This might be a goal for some to get some racing experience in open water without the bike and run
http://www.openwaterswimmer.ie/index.php/events

There's a mix of distances to suit your A race......

Chartsengrafs

Kurt, nice work on the thread, I've been dipping in and out of it a good bit as it's still all very relevant to me.
2 quick ones if you or others wouldn't mind. Assuming body is rotating, should the head stay in the same position?
Secondly, I've been working on the catch for really the first time in recent weeks and seeing some improvements. At what point should the elbow on the leading arm start to bend? Thanks!

Kurt Godel

Basster wrote: »

Kurt, nice work on the thread, I've been dipping in and out of it a good bit as it's still all very relevant to me.
2 quick ones if you or others wouldn't mind. Assuming body is rotating, should the head stay in the same position?
Secondly, I've been working on the catch for really the first time in recent weeks and seeing some improvements. At what point should the elbow on the leading arm start to bend? Thanks!

The head should be as steady as a rock through out, in an ideal world it should only move to breath. Its the front point of the axis along which the shoulders rotate. A rocking head is going to slow you down (it will cause snaking further down the body), so you need to visualise moving along a straight line. Try looking down at the blue line and check your head is steady. Don't lift up too high for air, you will often be surprised at how little turn is required to get some air on board.

Your second point regarding leading arm is a bit of a dark science. I presume you are referring to the glide which comes after hand entry, and I'm loathe to discuss the glide for newbie swimmers- its relevant when you are swimming fast, and with good form, but can cause a dead spot in the stroke for slower swimmers. So I'd be inclined to say the elbow on the leading arm starts to bend (or "starts the catch") just after entering the water with a spearing hand. Consider yourself lying face down in deep snow, and you want to pull yourself along the ground. Your hand digs into the snow, and you "catch" the snow by bending your forearm and pulling back.

Chartsengrafs

Thanks, makes sense on both counts

zico10

Basster wrote: »

Secondly, I've been working on the catch for really the first time in recent weeks and seeing some improvements. At what point should the elbow on the leading arm start to bend? Thanks!

It's hard to know what exactly constitutes a bent elbow, but I'd say start bending your elbow as soon your hand enters. I can't speak for you, but I don't get much out of my glide. When I'm swimming, I try to break the phases of the stroke down into steps. My thought process during the first phase is finger tip entry, keep palm facing backwards, then bend elbow. I might be overlooking something, but when I'm concentrating on these three things I find I hold better form and go faster. Very important to concentrate though and it's very easy to let things slip.

All my humble and modest opinion of course.

Steroo

Quick Q : another swimmer suggested I get a snorkel to work on form without the distraction of breathing.... so I take his point but I've a feeling it's not advisable or it could have came up already? and no suggestion of it in my swim smooth book that I came across so far. Thanks

tunney

Steroo wrote: »

Quick Q : another swimmer suggested I get a snorkel to work on form without the distraction of breathing.... so I take his point but I've a feeling it's not advisable or it could have came up already? and no suggestion of it in my swim smooth book that I came across so far. Thanks

Ah swim smooth, a topic of conversation from Tuesday. Thats all I can remember though is that we talked about it.

I see the thinking of a snorkel for working on technique. However my issue is people don't see breathing and the ability to breathe as part of your technique and your swimming.

Using a snorkel is not swimming, its snorkelling, or doing specific drills. Not saying that there isn't a point in using them. But if you cannot breathe then worrying about the intricacies of your catch are irrelevant. Work on your body balance first.

career move

tunney wrote: »

Ah swim smooth, a topic of conversation from Tuesday. Thats all I can remember though is that we talked about it.

I think the Mr Smooth animation is like a good book .... everytime you watch it you see something you could be doing better

@Kurt - my superwoman's are not going particularly well. Are they meant to be incredibly difficult?