Swimming for Tri Beginners

Kurt Godel · 20-02-2015 8:29pm

career move wrote: »

@Kurt - my superwoman's are not going particularly well. Are they meant to be incredibly difficult?

Yes they are difficult, and they are in no way mandatory! Try 'em and see- if they are too hard go back to the board, its more important that you are kicking than sinking.

After you've tried super(wo)man, try the same with the board, but really stretch out your body and go for a streamline shape while you kick. Imagine a piece of liquorice stretching along your torso to your head, and try and pull it tight as you swim.

Liquorice copyrite SwimSmooth;)

Steroo · 20-02-2015 11:02pm

Am I right to say swimming in wetsuit in the sea will be like using the pb?

Also worst case scenario the 1900m sea swim is a struggle.. What's the options for a breather? Roll onto back? Breast stroke? Doggy paddle?

Humour me &#55357;&#56835;

Kurt Godel · 20-02-2015 11:17pm

Steroo wrote: »

Am I right to say swimming in wetsuit in the sea will be like using the pb?

Also worst case scenario the 1900m sea swim is a struggle.. What's the options for a breather? Roll onto back? Breast stroke? Doggy paddle?

Humour me ��

You will have more bouyancy at the legs in a suit, so in that respect it's similar to a pb.

Any of your options will give you a breather. You cannot sink in a wetsuit. However, the goal is to have everyone swimming their full distance, comfortable and with ease, by OW time. This thread is the anti-doggy-paddle-in-a-wetsuit thread; its all about getting people who want to, race fit. It's for people who want to race, to do their best, to put in the work now so that come summertime they leave nothing behind. Anyone can get around a distance slowly; those that care about racing will be testing their abilities in and out of the water. The race started months ago.

career move · 21-02-2015 7:23pm

Wk 15 Day 1
200 fc/backstroke
4*50 k with board
4*100 off 2:30 (or whatever your slow pace is)
1 min rest
4*100 off 2:25 (slow pace minus 5 seconds)
In on 2:34, 2:35, 2:33, 2:38
1 min rest
4*100 off 2:20 (slow pace minus 10 seconds; this pace should feel "steady")
In on 2:32, 2:28, 2:28, 2:22
1 min rest
4*100 off 2:15 (slow pace minus 15 seconds; this pace should feel "fast")
1 min rest
In on 2:23, 2:19*, 2:20, 2:20
100 backstroke

* This is a 13 sec PB in the TT I did for January

but I kind of messed up the pacing because I didn't go slowly enough for the first set so I only did the 3.

I'd like to thank the voices in my head for a rocking swim ....
Dory (smiling patiently) "high elbows dear, attack that water"
Oryx (encouraging) "don't curl your fingers"
Kurt (scowling) "just get it done. And make sure they're all the same"

Kurt Godel · 21-02-2015 8:35pm

career move wrote: »

Kurt (scowling) "just get it done. And make sure they're all the same"

You know me too well after one meeting! Solid progress from you, career move. Looking at your posted times, you could have done 4*2:35, 4*2:30, 4*2:25, 4*2:20 or under. What these descending sets teach you is pacing- its useful to know "now I'm swimming at my comfortable pace, which is 2:30". Its hard to prescribe them since there is little face-to-face interaction here, but I'd imagine people are getting a better idea of what their "slow" or "steady" pace is.

Well done on the 100 pb, thats update-worthy!

Dory Dory · 21-02-2015 8:46pm

@career move - You've got a lot of free speed in you just by making a few adjustments to your stroke. And I never had a chance to broach the subject of your kick, but I swam behind you at one point looking at it, and I noticed loads of untapped potential with that as well. My best advice is a few one-on-ones with a coach* as that will bring you on leaps and bounds. You do incredibly well for never having had a single lesson, so your improvement with proper guidance is going to be impressive. Well done on your PB.

(* I know shotgun is not a coach, but honestly even he knows enough to help you in the pool...and since he is your Beast teammate, perhaps you will have an opportunity to make a pool date and get a few pointers from him while in the water.)

Kurt Godel · 22-02-2015 1:03am

The goal of this thread has always been to help beginner triathletes become competent swimmers, so they can enjoy and race the swim portion of the upcoming season's races. There are limitations in hosting an online program like this, but in general its been more useful that it exists than if it doesn't. It's difficult to decide on a "one-size-fits-all" structure, and stick to that. One of the first things I said when hosting it was "too many cooks...", and I'm grateful to those qualified and more experienced coaches who held their fire and allowed a benign dictator host the program without publicly calling out any limitations. Because of that the thread has developed whereas too much exchange might have stifled it. The feedback has been good, I'm more than happy with the progress and discussion its helped foster; however I'm acutely aware that there may well be obvious area's of beginner development that I have overlooked.

So bearing that in mind, the time has come to mix things up a little. We're going to introduce a guest coach for one week of each month, for the next several months. That should allow continuity, while bringing in experience and a dash of élan. Next weeks program will be written by Dory Dory, and all feedback or questions on her program will be answered by her. I'll be back for the next 3 weeks; then another guest coach. The overall thread will be better for this.

Dory will post her 3-day program tomorrow or Monday; best of luck! Over to you Dory

career move · 22-02-2015 12:45pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Looking at your posted times, you could have done 4*2:35, 4*2:30, 4*2:25, 4*2:20 or under.

That would have been the sensible thing to do alright. But I was on a roll

:D

Dory Dory wrote: »

@career move - You've got a lot of free speed in you just by making a few adjustments to your stroke. And I never had a chance to broach the subject of your kick, but I swam behind you at one point looking at it, and I noticed loads of untapped potential with that as well. My best advice is a few one-on-ones with a coach* as that will bring you on leaps and bounds. You do incredibly well for never having had a single lesson, so your improvement with proper guidance is going to be impressive. Well done on your PB.

(* I know shotgun is not a coach, but honestly even he knows enough to help you in the pool...and since he is your Beast teammate, perhaps you will have an opportunity to make a pool date and get a few pointers from him while in the water.)

Thanks Dory. I'd say Mike would be more concerned with how little I'm doing on the bike but I'll have a word

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Dory will post her 3-day program tomorrow or Monday; best of luck! Over to you Dory

Cool

career move · 22-02-2015 12:46pm

100m Time Trial|Nov '14|Dec|Jan|Feb|March|April|May|June'15
ainsyjnr|1:47|1:38||||||
strummer_ie|2:10|||||||
career move|2:49|2:38|2:32|2:19||||
Rainbow Kirby|1:57*|1:53||||||
ToTriOrNot |2:09|||||||
bart86 |1:51|1.48|2:00|||||
iwillhtfu |###|1:36|1:42
andstillrickyvilla |2:38|2:23|2:19|||||
steroo ||||1:52||||

Dory Dory · 22-02-2015 10:07pm

Hello, fish-in-training!!

Okay, Kurt has asked that I toss up this week's sessions, so here we go....Dory-style. For each session, I will provide options to hopefully appeal to the different levels and tastes of the participants...and, naturally, if there are any questions or confusion with what I have posted, please do not hesitate to ask!

Session #1 - Drills

400 warmup
4 x 100 kick
- Option A: no kick board, 4 x (25 on stomach with arms outstretched and hands clasped, 25 on right side, 25 on left side, 25 on back with arms outstretched and hands clasped). If not using a kick board while on the stomach isn't working for you, then you can substitute that 25 for kicking on your back.
- Option B: 2 x (100 with kick board...then 100 done w/o kick board as 2 x (25 right side, 25 left side)).
- Option C: 4 x 100 with kick board.
4 x 50 free - 25 hard, 25 easy, 15 sec rest
4 x 100 free done with right arm only 25, left arm only 25, full stroke 50
4 x 50 free - 25 hard, 25 easy, 15 sec rest
200 finger tip drill
4 x 50 free - 25 hard, 25 easy, 15 sec rest
200 cool down

Total: 2,200 meters

Here's a video on side kicking:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RRJmTzBZ7u8

Here's a video on one arm swimming:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vJhuT_DoqXM
While swimming with one arm, concentrate on a proper and complete stroke, and hitting the thumb against your thigh as your arm exits the water.

If 2,200 meters is too time consuming for you, feel free to reduce each "4 x" set to "3 x", and that will reduce this session down to 1,850 meters.

Session #2 - 100s!

3 x 100 warm up, increasing to 80% effort
3 x 100 - 25 fast, 75 easy
9 x 100 - 1-3/4-6/7-9 descending, trying to shave 5 seconds off each 100
1 x 100 kick
3 x 100 easy
9 x 100 - with pull buoy, 1-3/4-6/7-9 descending, trying to shave 5 seconds off each 100
1 x 100 kick
3 x 100 cool down

Total: 3,200 meters

You should allow 15 seconds rest between 100s within each set, and 1-2 minutes rest between each set.

Obviously the guts of this session are the two 9 x 100s, but if 3,200 meters is too much of an ask, then reduce those two sets down to 6 x 100s each - that will bring you down to 2,600 meters. If that is still too much time in the pool, then eliminate the kick 100s - and that will bring this set down to 2,400. And, if you still need to shave this session down, then take all the 3 x 100 to 2 x 100 and you will have a total of 2,200 meters.

Session #3 - Pacing and Endurance

400 warmup
2 x (3 x 200 w/15-30 sec rest...then 1 x 400) - 2 minute rest between sets
200 cool down

Total: 2,600 meters

Pace the 200s with the idea in mind of keeping that same/similar pace while swimming the 400. That doesn't mean you deliberately go easy on those 200s, but rather try and maintain a steady pace throughout the entire set.

Variations of this session include:
2 x (3 x 150 w/15-20 sec rest...then 1 x 300) - 2 minute rest between sets
2,100 meters for the session

or

2 x (3 x 100 w/15-20 sec rest...then 1 x 200) - 2 minute rest between sets
1,600 meters for the session

or

3 x (3 x 100 w/15-20 sec rest...then 1 x 200) - 2 minute rest between sets
2,100 meters for this session

Good luck everyone!!!

career move · 22-02-2015 10:48pm

Jeez Dory there's a bit of an evil streak in you

iwillhtfu · 22-02-2015 10:58pm

I'm looking forward to day 2 long but nicely broken up.

As for that side kick without a board I hope there's no life guard on duty as I imagine I'm going to look like I'm half drowned doing it.

Cheers Dory.

and still ricky villa · 23-02-2015 11:48am

Jaysus, saw the long post from Kurt and assumed the thread/training might be winding down. Really appreciate the effort that is going into getting us up to a decent level so wouldn't have complained one bit.
But guest coaches is an excellent idea

I've just done Week 10 - Day 2 this morning (hypoxic sets) and was close to hitting new PBs even while concentrating on slow, controlled breathing but noticed there isn't a TT set coming up.

So, should we follow career move and take the 'fast' end of Week 15 - Day 1 as the TT check-in?
(I like having numbers and data to look at, sorry)

Kurt Godel · 23-02-2015 1:46pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

So, should we follow career move and take the 'fast' end of Week 15 - Day 1 as the TT check-in?
(I like having numbers and data to look at, sorry)

No harm in doing a 100m TT at any time, it won't take too much out of anyone. By the same token, it doesn't add a huge amount to a Tri training schedule, but is a handy little number to look at and gauge progress.

Steroo · 23-02-2015 4:02pm

I tried this one today from Week 10 but didn't get too far:

Day 2
200m warm up
50m breathe every 2
50m breathe every 3
50m breathe every 4
50m breathe every 5
50m breathe every 6
50m breathe every 7
50m breathe every 8
50m breathe every 7
50m breathe every 6
50m breathe every 5
50m breathe every 4
50m breathe every 3
50m breathe every 2

I started to struggle after 5 strokes, couldn't complete the 50m wihout running out of air. Then I thought maybe I'm just not taking enough air IN & went for bigger breaths & tried again.... it was a bit better but still a struggle. Every 6 was a disaster so didn't try every 7. I didn't finish the set & did a few drills to try to get my kicking rhythm improved.. as I noticed I was doing a 4 beat kick not 6 (i think). Overall I left a bit deflated! What should I be learning from this?

career move · 23-02-2015 9:16pm

Dory Dory wrote: »

Session #1 - Drills

400 warmup
4 x 100 kick
- Option A: no kick board, 4 x (25 on stomach with arms outstretched and hands clasped, 25 on right side, 25 on left side, 25 on back with arms outstretched and hands clasped). If not using a kick board while on the stomach isn't working for you, then you can substitute that 25 for kicking on your back.
4 x 50 free - 25 hard, 25 easy, 15 sec rest
4 x 100 free done with right arm only 25, left arm only 25, full stroke 50
4 x 50 free - 25 hard, 25 easy, 15 sec rest
200 finger tip drill
4 x 50 free - 25 hard, 25 easy, 15 sec rest
200 cool down

Total: 2,200 meters

I found this quite a challenging little session. The 100 kicks were tough. On my stomach I get a good kick off the wall and I feel like I'm in a nice streamlined position with my legs kicking well until I try to breathe. When I lift my head my legs sink and I can generally get one more breath in before the rest of me sinks as well and I have to stop and start again. The side ones were difficult on the first one but then I got the hang of them and I could manage them fairly well. The ones on my back I couldn't keep high enough in the water with my two hands behind my head but when I had them by my side it was good. I think I swallowed enough water during this set to keep me hydrated for a week! I had to work really hard and my first thought when I was finished was flippin heck I've another 1400m to go :eek:
I liked the 25 hard 25 easy. Didn't time them, just concentrated on swimming strong Tunney style. I felt like I was swimming well and fast and I'd have struggled to keep up that pace for more than another 25m. The 25 easy were very very easy!
I quite enjoyed the one arm drills after the first one. I was concentrating on bringing my elbow as high as I could and I forgot I was supposed to do the thigh tap but it felt pretty good anyway.
Thanks Dory

tunney · 23-02-2015 10:11pm

Steroo wrote: »

Am I right to say swimming in wetsuit in the sea will be like using the pb?

Also worst case scenario the 1900m sea swim is a struggle.. What's the options for a breather? Roll onto back? Breast stroke? Doggy paddle?

Humour me ��

You get the buoyancy of the pb. But there is also an element of restriction in shoulder movement. Depending on your shoulder flexibly (poor I'd guess), and wetsuit type (probably not the best fitting). So your position will be better but you'll probably fatigue more quickly.

Kurt Godel · 23-02-2015 11:28pm

Steroo wrote: »

I tried this one today from Week 10 but didn't get too far:
...
I started to struggle after 5 strokes, couldn't complete the 50m wihout running out of air. Then I thought maybe I'm just not taking enough air IN & went for bigger breaths & tried again.... it was a bit better but still a struggle. Every 6 was a disaster so didn't try every 7. I didn't finish the set & did a few drills to try to get my kicking rhythm improved.. as I noticed I was doing a 4 beat kick not 6 (i think). Overall I left a bit deflated! What should I be learning from this?

From what you've posted previously, I'd say this set might be too advanced for you (no point beating around the bush). You'll get there in time, but only a couple of weeks back you were talking about having to stop for a breather after 50m? Breathing in general seemed to be a limiter, so its a big ask to try BE6,7,or 8.

I remember fretting over breathing patterns myself a while back and an experienced guy shrug his shoulders- he said he just breathed when he needed to, didn't think about it. The hypoxic drills should help swimmers get to that stage, but I think you need to go back and work on your basic breathing (first page of the program). Breathing should be relaxed (in fact swimming should be relaxed, but breathing comes first), inhale with ease, exhale with ease, swim with ease.

Dory Dory · 24-02-2015 2:33am

career move wrote: »

I found this quite a challenging little session. The 100 kicks were tough. On my stomach I get a good kick off the wall and I feel like I'm in a nice streamlined position with my legs kicking well until I try to breathe. When I lift my head my legs sink and I can generally get one more breath in before the rest of me sinks as well and I have to stop and start again. The side ones were difficult on the first one but then I got the hang of them and I could manage them fairly well. The ones on my back I couldn't keep high enough in the water with my two hands behind my head but when I had them by my side it was good. I think I swallowed enough water during this set to keep me hydrated for a week! I had to work really hard and my first thought when I was finished was flippin heck I've another 1400m to go :eek:
I liked the 25 hard 25 easy. Didn't time them, just concentrated on swimming strong Tunney style. I felt like I was swimming well and fast and I'd have struggled to keep up that pace for more than another 25m. The 25 easy were very very easy!
I quite enjoyed the one arm drills after the first one. I was concentrating on bringing my elbow as high as I could and I forgot I was supposed to do the thigh tap but it felt pretty good anyway.
Thanks Dory

You rock, cm!

Love the feedback because I see a few holes in my original post that I overlooked...so thanks for taking the time to report on this session.

Regarding kicking without a kickboard on your stomach, try taking one stroke on the side you want to breathe to, like this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zdim1m8on8

Regarding kicking on your back, arms at your side is perfect! (And perhaps arms at your side should be encouraged for everyone for now.) Kicking with your hands over your head will require you to lift your hips to keep your feet from sinking - so lift the hips! And, for entertainment value only, here's a clip of an advanced way to kick on your back: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mM5sgamnKe0 :eek::D

Regarding the 25 hard, 25 easy....definitely make the easy as easy as you need. The emphasis for this set is on that 25 hard - it should be pure quality and strong.

And you're very welcome!

and still ricky villa · 24-02-2015 4:32pm

Done and dusted

Not the quickest but an improvement on my 20 min TT from a few weeks back with a 13sec per 100m drop so happy to see continued progress.
The main thing for me is the Garmin reported no major time differences in lengths where I was up and down during the 20 min TT (and we all know that Garmins cannot be disagreed with

). Consistency is a big goal

Felt I could go further too. Added bonus!

rainbow kirby · 24-02-2015 4:49pm

Working my way through last week's sessions because I was getting over a bug last week - did the day 2 session yesterday. Pretty solid session overall, my legs were complaining a bit during the kick set after Sunday's long run but otherwise felt good

tunney · 25-02-2015 11:40am

Based on a story I just heard. About someone who is doing "THE IRONMAN" who thinks a wetsuit will sort all swim related ills

There is a misconception that a wetsuit will remove the work in the swim leg, it won't. It won't even stop you drowning. It just means the rescue boats have a little longer to get to you before you drown and die.

tunney · 25-02-2015 11:48am

tunney wrote: »

Based on a story I just heard. About someone who is doing "THE IRONMAN" who thinks a wetsuit will sort all swim related ills

There is a misconception that a wetsuit will remove the work in the swim leg, it won't. It won't even stop you drowning. It just means the rescue boats have a little longer to get to you before you drown and die.

Point of this post was, keep up the good work, on the day you'll be the happiest at the end. Regardless of which race you are doing.

and still ricky villa · 25-02-2015 11:49am

tunney wrote: »

It just means the rescue boats have a little longer to get to you before you drown and die.

Probably shouldn't laugh. I have been that soldier, albeit in a sprint
Preparation is everything

tunney · 25-02-2015 11:55am

Kurt has done a great job on the swim sets and the prep. Not a single press up in sight.

However physical preparation is not all that is required. You *WILL* panic in your first open water mass start. Get 5-10 friends that are all OW swimmers, preferably most being experienced and practice a mass start in cold dark water. Get the panic over and done with in a safe controlled not race day environment. You may panic again in a race, but that could happen to anyone.

Kurt Godel · 25-02-2015 12:18pm

Do you even lift, Tunney? Hand chalk discussion reserved for next years "Advanced swims&burpees" thread...;)

Spot on about preparing for OW. Come June, you've swam in the pool for months, you've just bought a new wetsuit, you've acclimatized with a few short dips off the 40 foot... ready for the race, right?

Wrong. Swimming in the lane with order, ropes, set directions, won't prepare anyone for the rough and tumble of their first OW race. Can you keep going when someone pulls your goggles off within the first minute? When someone dunks and swims over you, and a train of swimmers do the same?? When someone decides "drafting" means kissing your armpit while repeatedly punching you in the ribs??? And all this before the 90˚turn at the first bouy, with everyone going for the same racing line...

OW swimming and racing is a joy, one of the best reasons to do a Tri. We'll introduce OW sessions (hopefully group meet-ups) from May/June, and go over some basics. It's a natural reaction to panic in OW scrums, and your whole race be determined by how you deal with that. A couple of years back I started hyperventilating in the washing machine around a bouy in an aquathlon, couldn't breath, arms and bodies smacking into me all around... I was in limp-home mode for the rest of the race. I've since been in whitewater scrums again, but that panic has never happened since.

Steroo · 25-02-2015 1:55pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

When someone decides "drafting" means kissing your armpit while repeatedly punching you in the ribs.

Lmao😀😀😀

rainbow kirby · 25-02-2015 2:02pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

OW swimming and racing is a joy, one of the best reasons to do a Tri. We'll introduce OW sessions (hopefully group meet-ups) from May/June, and go over some basics. It's a natural reaction to panic in OW scrums, and your whole race be determined by how you deal with that. A couple of years back I started hyperventilating in the washing machine around a bouy in an aquathlon, couldn't breath, arms and bodies smacking into me all around... I was in limp-home mode for the rest of the race. I've since been in whitewater scrums again, but that panic has never happened since.

First OW race of the season for me is May 17 - racing at Stoke Newington reservoir. Bring it on

Dory Dory · 25-02-2015 3:18pm

tunney wrote: »

However physical preparation is not all that is required. You *WILL* panic in your first open water mass start. Get 5-10 friends that are all OW swimmers, preferably most being experienced and practice a mass start in cold dark water. Get the panic over and done with in a safe controlled not race day environment. You may panic again in a race, but that could happen to anyone.

Or, you and your 5-10 friends can just do this....

career move · 25-02-2015 8:54pm

Dory Dory wrote: »

Regarding kicking without a kickboard on your stomach, try taking one stroke on the side you want to breathe to, like this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zdim1m8on8

Regarding kicking on your back, arms at your side is perfect! (And perhaps arms at your side should be encouraged for everyone for now.) Kicking with your hands over your head will require you to lift your hips to keep your feet from sinking - so lift the hips! And, for entertainment value only, here's a clip of an advanced way to kick on your back: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mM5sgamnKe0 :eek::D

I did the 100's tonight. It was fun.I forgot my watch so for the descending sets I just went with effort .... not out of breath, little bit out of breath and very out of breath

When I was doing the 100 kick I tried breathing like in the video above and found it much easier. I got the whole 25m done!!! I couldn't get the arms behind my head on my back so I just tried to lift my hips as much as I could with my arms by my side

Swimming for Tri Beginners

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