Swimming for Tri Beginners

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

I had come into this thread to suggest you were pi$$ing in the wind and whats the point but I see you came to the same conclusion.

"We have to cater for the weakest swimmer" and that is why minimum standards needed. Dublin 70.3 becomes Dublin 69.3

I'll be honest with you, I started this thread for selfish reasons. With the IM brand coming to Dublin, it was obvious a load of non-swimmers would sign up to tick the IM brand box, and would enter "practise" tris beforehand. That would lead to an ever greater chance of Tri swims being cancelled- I could complain about it or try and do something positive (this thread). I was never delusional about the scope of reach of Boards, but its better to do something positive than just whinge, right?

Wrong. It's far too big a problem. It's been brilliant to see people getting faster and making progress on this thread- and I'd have been happy to keep it going over the winter if only one person followed it but was making progress- but to continue it would be to do a disservice to anyone following, and that would be to continue the delusion that you'll get rewarded for the effort you put into the water training.

You won't. I was deluded. You'll get far more out of Tri by putting that effort into the bike and run. All you need for Tri swims in Ireland is a wetsuit. Ability is going to hamper you, because you'll hone that ability by putting effort into your swim- effort that could be put to better use on the bike and run.

I've spent my 3 years so far in Tri pi$$ing into the wind, by working hard on my swim. Year after year I've been disappointed on race day as I turn up with a useless bag full of swim talent. Anyone new, or younger than me; don't make the same mistake.

pc11

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Well done to everyone who followed this for the past 6 months and made progress. There's no point in continuing it any further, as anyone who can swim faster than 3min/100m is fast enough for Irish triathlons. Triathlons are being dictated by the TI officials, who look at the slowest entrants and change/truncate/cancel the swim to suit their ability.

TI official here and this is news to me. I've never done anything like that. Can you elaborate?

tunney

pc11 wrote: »

TI official here and this is news to me. I've never done anything like that. Can you elaborate?

Really? The world and their dog have been talking about this for a few years.

Plus the drafting/pacing and course cutting. TI and its officials (of which I was one for many years) have heads firmly stuck in the sand on these these days.

pc11

tunney wrote: »

Really? The world and their dog have been talking about this for a few years.

Plus the drafting/pacing and course cutting. TI and its officials (of which I was one for many years) have heads firmly stuck in the sand on these these days.

No question about the drafting. When I have anything to do with, I will be brutal. I have disqualified competitors and given penalties without hesitating.

What's the story about the swims??

tunney

pc11 wrote: »

No question about the drafting. When I have anything to do with, I will be brutal. I have disqualified competitors and given penalties without hesitating.

What's the story about the swims??

Consistently shortened swims due to "rough water", "strong flow" or "cold water". For those vaguely competent in OW the water typically isn't deemed rough, the flow not strong and the water not cold. Unfortunately Johnny Bucket, and Sally OneEventAndOut have panic attacks on the "waves" and the swims get cut "for safety reasons". May/June events mainly affected.

Kurt Godel

pc11 wrote: »

TI official here and this is news to me. I've never done anything like that. Can you elaborate?

(Note- PM'ed pc11 to clarify that no official will be mentioned or blamed, and that the rules are whats at fault, and that its okay to discuss on thread).

Ok todays Carlow Sprint as an example. Its advertised as an up-and-down river swim. Racing 795 go out of their way to organise a very good race with a nice spectator-friendly course, 350m up, 350m down. I swim the course a couple of days beforehand- its more difficult swimming upstream, but no more so than any of the many times I've swam the Barrow. Coming down is a lot faster. Nothing wrong with that, its part of an up-and-down swim.

The day before the race, flow has lessened since I swam, the course is marked with a central divide. Everything in place for the advertised swim.

Race morning, flow has lessened even more. Rumours abound that its become a (1km) downstream only. Race briefing, this is confirmed. I believe "course inspection" was given as the only reason (although I may be wrong). With a downstream only, any variance in swim times will be much closer (as it would a downhill only bike or wind assisted run- in fact greater so because of wetsuit bouyancy).

So what should have been a race that suited those who can swim up and down, became a race that suited those who can float downstream. Not something (I believe) the race organisers wanted, not something caused by water temps, not something caused by an unusual flow. Instead something caused by a safety official more concerned with back-of-pack ability, than by suiting those who had trained for the event.

At some stage the "safety" card will be played- "safety" meaning its unsafe to have an against-flow or difficult swim when there are obvious nervous or novice swimmers. I would suggest its more unsafe to allow them to enter Tri's in the first place, without completing a mandatory swim cert course.

RacoonQueen

Out of interest, did you actually ask who made the decision why they made the decision?

Kurt Godel

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Out of interest, did you actually ask who made the decision why they made the decision?

No. I walked behind them to the swim start (by chance), and thought I might say something but didn't. They make the call on the day, we abide by it on the day. It's unfair otherwise.

griffin100

It's my understanding that the decision was made by the officials, but I'll check it out. Have to agree with Kurt though, no way did the conditions warrant a swim change, you'll be hard pressed to get a slower flowing river at this time of year.

Edit: been told it was TI

Dilbert75

I'd HATE to have everyone's race downgraded because I wasn't up to one leg of it. I'd be mortified.

and still ricky villa

Really sad to see this thread come to an end. Hoping you'll reconsider but you're a passionate guy and there's no sense in asking you to put the effort in with a sour taste in your mouth.

I vaguely remember this thread stemming from criticism of the DCT waves last year (coupled with the looming IM monster). I was one of the newbies that year and needed some help.

You were the only one to stick their hand up and try to do something about people capable of swimming a few lengths thinking they could take on a 'big' swim. The change in the followers of this thread is something to be proud of.
Thanks for the effort, tips and words of encouragement.

Steroo

As ever, thanks for all you work & effort here Kurt, it did a lot of us a lot of good

ainsyjnr

Steroo wrote: »

As ever, thanks for all you work & effort here Kurt, it did a lot of us a lot of good

100% agree.

Thanks Kurt I really appreciate the time you put into this thread, without it I would have had zero focus for my swimming sessions with everything else online dealing with experienced swimmers. Your feedback was constructive and contributions from other followers helped to keep motivation up.

Even with all the work I put in I am still finding the open water swimming tough... I can't imagine what people are putting themselves through if they are just jumping in to races off a few lengths.

My first tri is in Athy, hopefully the river will be easier than the sea. But still, I am looking forward to it rather than dreading it, as a result of this thread, thanks again Kurt.

interested

my 2c

a) calling bulls*it on you starting this for selfish reasons to single handedly turn the tide so to speak on TI decisions about OW swims in triathlon ... Im more inclined to think you did it for fun, to try and help people and give people some focus from waaaaay back when to their first adventures with triathlon in either a pool or open water .... based on the number of views, some posts ... I'd argue you more than achieved that champ

b) swims gets cancelled, curtailed, changed altogether ... it happens and will continue to happen for X,Y and Z reasons. If you measure your race, day out or 'another training session' based on only the swim then I guess people will be disappointed more than once. Simple things like picking races where the swims are consistently NOT changed might help or flicking the switch and say ... Im here to race .. no matter what.

Hope the big toe heals (ya big girls blouse) and you're racing again asap, the training you've done this year strongly suggests you deserve a result - but on the day, you gotta grab it yourself.

Kurt Godel

<<SNIP>>

This well-considered message was sent to me today from someone who has been following this swim thread, apparently in response to my ceasing it. So just in case there needs to be more clarity:

1. As alluded to in the post above, of course enjoyment in helping others improve was the driving factor over the past 6 months. It's too long a time to be stubborn, even for me

2. Attending yet another swim-shortened course has made me consider that time in Tri is better spent getting the swim to an average standard, and training for improvements on the bike and run. I need to work on the "C'est la vie" aspect I suppose.

3. While that consideration may have hastened the end of the program, it was always going to end soon anyway. I've no idea really of suitable pool-based sessions that would help OW, and I am hesitant to suggest or be responsible for OW-based sessions to unsupervised beginners. And its time for the OW.

4. What everyone who followed the thread should realise- above everything else- that any progress you made was down to you alone. Consistency in getting into the water is what leads to improvement. If you have followed the program this far you have all the tools needed to continue your progress yourself. Best of luck to everyone, I've enjoyed the past 6 months and I hope you've knocked some fun out of it too, hope to see some of you at the races

ToTriOrNot

<<SNIP>>


Really? People really feel the need to send this message??? I have been been dipping in and out of this thread, follow some of the advice, and I think the effert you put into making sure people progress was noticeable...the only way to progress is putting the time in the pool....and you told me once, to improve, you have to do a minimum of 3 sessions a week, and that's what you provide us with. I also knew, that come this time of the year, we should be making the progression to the open water...and so I have done 2 sessions in the sea so far (colds and family visits have made it impossible to do more)...but I believe you were a great motivator to get me in the water more...Unfortunately (or not...will see) I seem to have picked an injury that has prevented me to run for the last few months, so I am totally concentrating on swimming and cycling with the club for the rest of the season...

All your advice and efforts are appreciated..and people please, if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all!!

Thanks for everything Kurt.

Kurt Godel

ToTriOrNot wrote: »

Really? People really feel the need to send this message??? I have been been dipping in and out of this thread, follow some of the advice, and I think the effert you put into making sure people progress was noticeable...the only way to progress is putting the time in the pool....and you told me once, to improve, you have to do a minimum of 3 sessions a week, and that's what you provide us with. I also knew, that come this time of the year, we should be making the progression to the open water...and so I have done 2 sessions in the sea so far (colds and family visits have made it impossible to do more)...but I believe you were a great motivator to get me in the water more...Unfortunately (or not...will see) I seem to have picked an injury that has prevented me to run for the last few months, so I am totally concentrating on swimming and cycling with the club for the rest of the season...

All your advice and efforts are appreciated..and people please, if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all!!

Thanks for everything Kurt.

Yeah, I don't think the message is representitive of the majority who followed, I was surprised to get it, and was then told to figure out the reason for myself... so in case it needed clarity... ^^^ whats written above.

But you should definitely look upon a running injury as an opportunity in the water... thats what got me in in 2012 and it was the best thing to have happened!

rainbow kirby

Similar here Kurt - had 18 months with very little running from mid-2012 to early 2014 with a back injury and started to swim more when I moved to London because I lived across the road from a very nice outdoor lido and there were 6 weeks where it was 30c nearly every day!

Thank you for all the effort you have put in here, some very good sessions there which I'll be using as a reference for a good while to come.

pgibbo

FFS.....you put in 6 months helping others and someone comes out with that. I think they need to take a long hard look in the mirror after a PM like that.

ToTriOrNot

Just curious, was someone who have contributed anything or even participated on the thread? Or just a randomer lurker to the thread???

Seriously, people have too much time in their hands!! they probably were best using that time swimming!!

sconhome

<<SNIP>>



Small mercies.

At least we can be thankful that they used "you're" with the correct spelling in the right context :rolleyes:

and still ricky villa

Dammit Kurt, don't you know we own you now?
Without a session to do I went to the pool during lunch and just sat there slowing turning into a prune.
I tried to get to the other end once but couldn't remember how

Actually, no I didn't.
I took the tools you've given us over the past 6 months and put a decent session together for myself.
Arms are sore and endorphins are rampant

No hard feelings here. You deserve a slap on the back for doing what no one else would. Let's hope whoever this is is just a troll

Good luck with the toe!
(Ran Florence marathon on 3 broken toes including the big one thanks to magic kinesio tape so all is not yet lost)

jrby

Kurt,

First time poster on this thread, but thanks for the help during the year. I only started swimming last year and not up to the level of your sessions but the training techniques are very useful. Again thanks for the effort and time you put in.

Steroo

<<SNIP>>

I was waiting for a punchline or something to follow later in your message to turn this on it's head. Very strange. throughout the 6 months I was thinking what a lot of effort this must be for you while you've your own life & training to do.

Maybe the person took it personally that you resented TI's decision in Carlow, which was based on the inexperience & risk to novice swimmers?

Anyway hope you don't take it to heart. keyboard warriors.

Doeshedare

I have been voyueristically following this thread since it started, not as a training aid but just interested and enjoying peoples progress. I have posted a couple of times on the swimming thread that beginners could look at this thread for guidance (and I just did this again a few minutes ago).
So I am dumbfounded by what the beligerent message is about.
As far as I can see you have helped lots of people with their ability and confidence in the water. That is to be admired.
I'd have killed to have this resource when I started out.
So keep the faith (small f) and dont let the b'stards drag you down(stream).

sconhome

pgibbo wrote: »

FFS.....you put in 6 months helping others and someone comes out with that. I think they need to take a long hard look in the mirror after a PM like that.

The only thing I could imagine is that the person is upset by the reasoning behind the closure of the thread.

Lots of people in there were pinning their swimming hopes on the generosity of Kurt in devoting his time to helping them swim.

What came across to me in the wind up of the thread was that there appeared to be an entirely selfish motivation to the purpose of the thread rather than generosity of spirit.

I don't know if it was meant in the manner that it comes across as, but that closure post is condescending to the very people that were being helped and this may be the way the messenger took exception with.

On another thread a very experienced swimmer agreed with the decision to change the swim set up. I think, and understand in Kurt's case the reaction from the crowd may have triggered a reflex response but maybe standing back, taking a look there may be a different perspective.

Please, please do not let this forum go down the road that A/R has been following recently.

iwillhtfu

I can only assume(hope) that the message was sent by somebody with a poorly judged attempt at sarcasm.

Absolutely out of order if their intent was otherwise.

Fair to say that more than myself would disagree and are grateful for your efforts/advice. I'm sure you couldn't wait to sit down each Sunday evening and type out a weeks swim drills with nothing but a random thank you as a reward.

So once again thanks and good luck with your future endeavours. Hopefully this thread is a source of reference for many going forward. I've the drills printed off just on the off chance this thread should get lost in the ether.

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Ah too much drama...

Lets just move on, I'm happy that the majority on the thread were happy with the way it went. I was going to close it down soon anyway, maybe I spelled out the reasons a bit better above.

Life's too short, maybe things are taken the wrong way in text rather than face to face, we can all be guilty of that so no hard feelings to anyone, so here's a line under the whole thing...

Happy swimming!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HAHA I killed my turbo thread without any abuse

iwillhtfu

Nothing good will come from this lads. Learn from it both of ye and move on.

Let's not sour an otherwise positive thread.

boysinblack

Well this escalated quickly ....