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Swimming for Tri Beginners

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    And as you know a loose wetsuit is worse than no suit at all!

    A word on sizing to everyone; I bought my first suit online, size XL going by the online estimator (my usual clothing size is XL). The next season I felt it was too loose so bought another, this time size L. It was tighter, and a good fit (so I thought), but I never felt great in it. Next season I went to B2R and got properly fitted- my jaw dropped when he recommended size M. It takes some time to get on, but its the best suit I've ever wore, it literally feels like a second skin. Cost a little more than the online suits, but I would have saved a lot more money in the long run if I had got a proper fit in the first instance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭68 lost souls


    Need to replace mine (BlueSeventy Sprint women's size large) - lost around 8kg since the start of last tri season and mine is way looser than it should be now!

    Fairplay to you on the weight loss. Another piece of advice I can give is that there are always people that gain the weight that you lose or people that started at your current weight and have gone up or down so it may be a case that you can find one of those people and swap sizes with them rather than having to buy a new suit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭smashiner


    Hi guys,
    I was lurking in the shadows looking at this thread and just had to take part! I am a newbie/inexperienced swimmer when it comes to Triathlons. I am reasonably fit from Running and the odd Duathlon or two, so I decided to take the plunge (sorry), and do the usual newbie error of buying a second hand wetsuit fitted in a shop (seems tight and ok I think) and I have actually just joined a Gym for the first time just to practice in the pool 2-3 times a week.

    I have completed about 4 sessions so far and can Breaststroke up to 650 Metres no problems, but the Front Crawl is a bigger problem.
    Two main issues: 1) Relaxed breathing is a huge problem for me. 2) Legs seem to fall too far in to the water (probably due to my head position being too high). YouTube videos are a big help but it seems it's like learning to drive a car from scratch, so technical.

    Any tips would be of help, planning to do the Tri Athy Sprint 750 Metres, 20 Bike and 5K Run in 5 weeks!!
    Will wearing the wetsuit in the pool help me to be more buoyant and help me to focus on the breathing and leg position??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    smashiner wrote: »
    Hi guys,
    I was lurking in the shadows looking at this thread and just had to take part! I am a newbie/inexperienced swimmer when it comes to Triathlons. I am reasonably fit from Running and the odd Duathlon or two, so I decided to take the plunge (sorry), and do the usual newbie error of buying a second hand wetsuit fitted in a shop (seems tight and ok I think) and I have actually just joined a Gym for the first time just to practice in the pool 2-3 times a week.

    I have completed about 4 sessions so far and can Breaststroke up to 650 Metres no problems, but the Front Crawl is a bigger problem.
    Two main issues: 1) Relaxed breathing is a huge problem for me. 2) Legs seem to fall too far in to the water (probably due to my head position being too high). YouTube videos are a big help but it seems it's like learning to drive a car from scratch, so technical.

    Any tips would be of help, planning to do the Tri Athy Sprint 750 Metres, 20 Bike and 5K Run in 5 weeks!!
    Will wearing the wetsuit in the pool help me to be more buoyant and help me to focus on the breathing and leg position??

    I wasn't going to answer this question because lately people seem to think I'm having a go at newbies who can't swim. But to be frank its dishonest to sugar coat, so here goes. Anyone who wants to give nicer advice be my guest.

    Wearing a wetsuit will help you be more buoyant, but it won't help you focus on your breathing or leg position, if you don't know what to focus on. There is almost half a year's worth of training that beginner swimmers have undertaken in this thread so far, and people have made progress in their breathing and leg position (and catch, and kick, and streamline, and...) through their own hard work and consistent training. If there were any shortcuts (such as wearing a wetsuit in a pool), we'd be suggesting that instead. But there's no shortcuts when you don't train- read back over the thread and see who progressed, how progress was made, how their stroke was broken down to come together. The ones who are ready for the Tri season now are the ones who spent the winter working in the pool.

    You're not the only non-swimmer who will expect the wetsuit to somehow transform you into a swimmer and hence a Triathlete. Some races will be more suitable for those sort of persons, and TriAthy is one (its a downstream swim). To use your car analogy, you don't need to know how to drive to freewheel a car downhill, just hold the steering wheel and point in the right direction. TriAthy you can float or breaststroke down with the current- or even walk down along the shallow banks if you prefer. Just consider getting some proper driving lessons when you do want to enter a rally, its a lot more rewarding.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    Kurt Godel wrote: »
    Day 1 Open Water Practice day
    ...
    Pick a stationary object down the other end of the pool- an exit, a chair, a particular window, etc. Swim 25 (or 50 in a LC pool) and immediately find that object when you come up for air every second breath...

    In case this needs clarification...take a sight every second time you come up for air (so if you are bilateral breathing you'll sight every 6 strokes). Obviously its a lot more meaningful in the OW, but no harm getting practice in at an early stage.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭68 lost souls


    To echo Kurt's point. A wetsuit is not a life raft nor is it a training tool. I would not use it to learn how to do things.

    There will be enough things to get accustomed to when you are racing that any benefit from the wetsuit will probbaly just make up for the current or being in a crowded swim.

    Put the hard work in in the pool and get an extra benefit at the race and your lucky as Kurt says the current will be with you at that race so it will make life easy but why not train in the difficult situation and then have a happy surprise in the rac ewhich will leave you fresher for the bike and run.


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭smashiner


    To echo Kurt's point. A wetsuit is not a life raft nor is it a training tool. I would not use it to learn how to do things.

    There will be enough things to get accustomed to when you are racing that any benefit from the wetsuit will probbaly just make up for the current or being in a crowded swim.

    Put the hard work in in the pool and get an extra benefit at the race and your lucky as Kurt says the current will be with you at that race so it will make life easy but why not train in the difficult situation and then have a happy surprise in the rac ewhich will leave you fresher for the bike and run.

    Hi guys,
    Believe or not, I am not actually looking for an easy way out as I have realised that swimming 750 Metres will be a huge challenge. I have a strong running background and acknowledge that hard graft will be required for this...

    This is why I signed up to join a gym/pool that is 5 minutes walk from the job, so I can really commit to putting in the many hours that will no doubt be required.
    I have never used a wetsuit before and I was just wondering if it would help me at all to get going. Plenty of sessions in the pool will be required to get me to any sort of decent level, my aching shoulder muscles are telling me this loud and clear....... :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    Its always a good idea to review your breathing technique, no matter what level you're at. You can practice these exercises the next time you're at the pool.

    Upgrade your breathing technique by Speedo elite coach Fred Vergnoux


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    Okay next week we are going to try something a little different... the focus for the week is all about your "feel" for the water. I want you to consider what is happening as you move through the water, rather than hit a set distance or time. To that end, you can do whatever lengths/distances/sets/drills you want. As long as you are focussing on the immediate sensation of propelling yourself through the water: what works, what doesn't; do I sit high on the water; is my catch doing what it should do; am I in control of my breathing...

    Feedback from this week should be very descriptive- just don't mention any numbers! The questions below are an example of the sorts of things you should be considering- add to them, and experiment, as you wish.

    Mon/Tue Breathing/Hypoxic Day
    Do whatever you like, and be aware at all times of your breathing. Go back to the start page and repeat those exercises if you like, or do a set of hypoxic, or BEwhatever.
    Are you in control of your breathing at all times?
    What happens if you slow down your pace? What happens if you speed up?
    Can you limit the time it takes to move your head around for a breath?
    Are you turning from the neck or from the waist?
    Does kicking make breathing much harder? Whats a good tradeoff balance between kicking and breathing?
    Do you say bubblebubble when underwater? Make a motorbike sound? Exhale smoothly?
    Are you in control of your breathing at all times?
    Are you in control of your breathing at all times?

    Wed/Thurs Streamline/Balance/Position day
    Whatever swims, drills, stokes you want. Your thoughts today will be on your position as you move through the water.
    Am I comfortable in the water?
    Is the water level at my brow? Am I looking slightly forwards?
    Do I have the ability to raise my butt as I swim? Raise my legs?
    Are my heels just breaking the surface as I kick?
    Do I rock from side to side as I swim? If so, what corrects this?
    Is my propulsion disturbed much when I turn to breathe?
    Can I swim through a tube of smarties? (this might be copyrighted, eh Mark?;))
    Can I swim with a single hand? What happens to my balance?
    How far do I drift with a single strong stroke? How far until I need another one?
    Can I keep my legs high with a smooth flutter kick?
    Where is my bow wave?
    Am I comfortable in the water?
    Am I comfortable in the water?

    Fri/Sat/Sun Catch'n'Pull day
    Today you will consider what is happening every time you take a stroke. This is the basis of your engine, and your success or otherwise as a swimmer is largely determined by what happens with your catch and your pull. There are plenty of useful similes to consider when doing your C&P. Some I've scraped from these pages- "You are lying on the ground dragging yourself over snow" (thanks MCOS!); "Catch the fish and put it in your pocket" (thanks Griffin!). The important thing is to make good use of what you are doing. A good hand entry (spear the water with your fingertips rather than slap it), a good catch (your forearm moves down to become a paddle), a good pull (is my elbow bent? am I strong?), a good exit (could I brush my thumb against my thigh?).
    How do I move through the water?
    Do I enter in the same line as my ear?
    Is there a slight pause after I enter? Should it be shorter/longer?
    Do I press down on the water, or pull it back?
    Is my elbow bent?
    Does my arm sometimes move at different speeds?
    What happens if I try a longer pull?
    What happens if I try a faster arm recovery?
    What happen if I try a wider arm recovery?
    How would I use my arms if they were paddles? If the hand was the blade?
    Can I point my shoulders up at the the roof/down at the bottom during my stroke?
    Is my breathing in sync?
    Is my rotation/position good?
    How do I move through the water?
    How do I move through the water?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,587 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    A week without numbers - what a great idea and some really useful points to ponder there.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭career move


    Hmmm. A week without numbers. I can kind of see what your getting at Kurt but numbers have a purpose. They give direction and structure and when your finished a sense of fulfillment. I like numbers.



    I'm not liking this new week idea :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    They give direction and structure and when your finished a sense of fulfillment.

    I like numbers too! (They are my job). But to turn your quote on its head, sometimes a sense of fulfillment help give direction and structure. There is a difference between doing and understanding. Episteme<Techne<Arete, as my mate Plato is always saying. Consider two scenarios:

    Swimming 4*100m off 2:00 in a 50m pool with 2.5m wide lanes.

    Swimming in the sea to a bouy in a race, with water in your goggles and waves coming from the North, people swimming over you, you come up for air and get pushed under again...

    Numbers will help for one of the above. Being confident of your swim abilities will help for the other.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    I'm going to expand a little on the above as it goes to the nub of why we are here, what everyone is trying to achieve. There's a change in mindset needed when moving from the familiar surroundings of the pool, to the unpredictable arena of the Open Water. Before I do, lets take stock:

    This thread has been running for nearly six months. Its success or otherwise will be determined by what people get out of it, so in that respect I'm personally very happy to see improvement in those that have followed it. The goal has been to help those who were new to Tri, specifically to help them in the water, and most of the feedback has been positive in that regard. Anyone who has swam in the pool over the last few months, who has developed a consistent routine for weekly pool visits, should be proud of themselves. You are already miles ahead of those others new to Tri who signed up for races but have done no swim work, so in that respect you've given yourselves a headstart. You'll exit the water higher up the field, and ready for the bike. All good :)

    Its getting close to the time where athletes will move their training from the pool, into the more demanding OW, into the seas and lakes and rivers. If you have not done much OW swimming before, be aware that its a totally different animal to the pool. In the pool, conditions are set, defined, predictable, and swim sets can be structured accordingly. The OW is different- conditions dictate everything. You are in an environment where everything is immediate, where you often have to adjust your stroke/breathing/pace/etc to suit an incoming wave, or a swarm of other swimmers, or a nagging feeling you are going off course... Its also the best feeling in the world, to know you are in these conditions and are in control of how you swim in them. Something everyone should experience (and the No. 1 goal of this thread). So for next week, take stock of your abilities, of what tools you have in your personal swim skills kit.

    You will get to deploy all of them under harsher conditions soon enough!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭and still ricky villa


    Just a quick progress update;

    This time last year I went through 1000m in 40 minutes
    Did the same in August with very little improvement

    During Week 10 of this plan I swam 1050 in just over 30 minutes
    Yesterday I paced my two 500m steady swims at 13:09 and 13:15
    And today I swam the 1000m TT in 25:33! :D

    Still some work to do but the results are there and justification of the last 60 sessions.

    Thanks again Kurt for giving this your time and know how


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    Thats great progress, delighted to see it! The key is consistency, as you have put in the hard work over 60 sessions. You'll reap the benefits in this summers races- since August you've improved your Sprint swim by almost 11 mins, your Oly by 21:46, your HIM by 27:33. To say nothing about exiting the water in an improved state, there is lots more time to consider taken off from a good T1, and fresher legs and body on the bike.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭and still ricky villa


    Got into the sea for a few minutes today. Not so bad once you get used to it but a tad colder than the pool


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    Got into the sea for a few minutes today. Not so bad once you get used to it but a tad colder than the pool

    Fair play! I see you're based in Arklow- where did you get in?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭and still ricky villa


    Working in Dublin though. I haven't braved Clugga yet. Was in at Seapoint for literally 10 minutes. Will aim to build it up over the coming weeks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    Hoping for a dip at Clogga myself very soon... can't wait to taste the brine again!

    Well done on getting in so early- the sooner people get in, the sooner they will acclimatise. Even a quick couple of minutes dip in April is worth it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 214 ✭✭ToTriOrNot


    Kurt Godel wrote: »
    Hoping for a dip at Clogga myself very soon... can't wait to taste the brine again!

    Well done on getting in so early- the sooner people get in, the sooner they will acclimatise. Even a quick couple of minutes dip in April is worth it!

    I was in for 30 mins last saturday, and I totally agree with this. Pretty new to open water, only started really last year, but after months in the pool, it's pretty important to get used to the coldness and the wetsuit, etc etc..my speed was shocking (well, it's shocking in the pool too), but I really enjoyed the swim the other day, and can't wait to go back to it.

    KG: I have dipped in and out of this thread, not being very active, but have always come here to check for your advice and for sessions when I did have nothing in mind, and I have found it fantastic..I have got one on one with a coach, and the advice gotten more or less has been cover here...I am now swimming 3 or 4 times a week, and along with cycling, my pool fitness has increased a lot, and the coach is very happy with my progress (still more room to improve of course). SO i wanted to thank you for this fantastic thread!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭Steroo


    Just got my first wetsuit! Now for my first sea swim ...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    There's an Open Water Swimming Workshop in Sandycove Harbour, Dublin, on May 17th. I spotted it on Facebook, don't know the guy who is giving it (Pawel Rudzinski), but I swim with a guy who swims with him, and he vouched for its worth. Check it out on FB, or call him at the number below. (I've no attachment to this workshop whatsoever)

    **************************
    Workshops for beginners, intermediate and advanced open water swimmers and triathletes.

    May 17th is workshop number 1 in a series of workshops which will cover:


    - overcoming anxiety in open water
    - getting used to swimming in your wetsuit - improving technique
    - master the art of sighting
    - learn now to swimming straight in open water
    - learn what it means to draft and how to do it better
    - open water start, race and finish
    - injuries prevention


    Meet at the harbour wall in Sandycove. Where exactly we change and enter the water will depend on the weather of the day.

    Dates of further workshops to be released at later date and will aim to accommodate all that attend on May 17th.

    If you're interested and require further details, send me a private message and I'll get back to you directly. Or feel free to call me on 085 1777345


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭Steroo


    Today is the last early bird day for these... I signed up today. Might suit some?

    http://howthaquathon.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=71


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭and still ricky villa


    Kurt Godel wrote: »
    There's an Open Water Swimming Workshop in Sandycove Harbour, Dublin, on May 17th. I spotted it on Facebook, don't know the guy who is giving it (Pawel Rudzinski), but I swim with a guy who swims with him, and he vouched for its worth. Check it out on FB, or call him at the number below. (I've no attachment to this workshop whatsoever)

    Where on Facebook was this Kurt? Would be interested if it fits in with my hectic Aquababies Sunday!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    Where on Facebook was this Kurt? Would be interested if it fits in with my hectic Aquababies Sunday!

    I don't know how to link to a FB page- do a search on FB for Pawel Rudzinski, details should be there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    Day 1
    200m warm up
    10*50 as (25 hard, 25 easy, 10s rest)
    4*50fist
    2 mins rest
    20 min TT (start steady, and build the pace after 10 mins. I don't want anyone getting slower/tired after 10 mins, so judge your pace). Note your distance.
    4*50 alternate backstroke, breaststroke, 10s rest in between each 50
    200 choice warm down

    Day 2
    200m warm up
    10*50 as (25 hard, 25 easy, 10s rest)
    4*50fist
    2 mins rest
    500m TT (steady pace throughout). Note your time.
    2 min rest
    300m hypoxic as 25m 3,2,1,0,0,0,0,1,2,3 (number of breaths you can take between walls. Hyperventilate before each, swim slow and steady, full recovery at each wall)
    200m choice warm down

    Day 3
    200m warm up
    10*50 as (25 hard, 25 easy, 10s rest)
    4*50fist
    2 mins rest
    100m MAX, 10s rest
    200m easy
    100m MAX, 10s rest
    200m easy
    100m MAX, 10s rest
    200m easy
    100m MAX, 10s rest
    200m choice warm down
    Each 100m MAX should be faster than your current 100m pb. That's right, 4 pb's tonight

    This is the most testing week yet. There's a lot of hurt, a lot of determination needed. However, in equal parts you will need a lot of control, specifically control of your pace. Last week was all about getting to know the tools in your personal swim kit a little better. This week you will get to use them all- proper head rotation and breathing for the MAX 100's; control in your pacing for the 20min TT; knowing when to burn your matches during the 500mTT. Its a tough week, but anyone who has made it this far is capable of putting in three strong performances.

    Trust your skills and good luck :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭career move


    Kurt Godel wrote: »
    Day 1
    200m warm up
    10*50 as (25 hard, 25 easy, 10s rest)
    4*50fist
    2 mins rest
    20 min TT (start steady, and build the pace after 10 mins. I don't want anyone getting slower/tired after 10 mins, so judge your pace). Note your distance.
    4*50 alternate backstroke, breaststroke, 10s rest in between each 50
    200 choice warm down

    850m in 20:22
    I thought I kept a fairly even pace and splits reflect this 10:09/10:13. Sorry about the 4 sec Kurt :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Bart86


    Kurt Godel wrote: »
    Thanks for doing last weeks program Tunney. Hope everyone has a better understanding of balance now.

    Week 20
    Day 1

    200m warm up
    6*50 as (25 max kick, 25 easy sw, 15s rest)
    5*100sw steady pace, 10s rest after each
    5*100pb steady pace, 10s rest after each
    5*100sw steady pace, 10s rest after each
    4*50 as 25 sprint, 25 easy, 10s rest
    200 choice

    Day 2
    200m warm up
    6*50 as (25 max kick, 25 easy sw, 15s rest)
    500sw steady pace
    1 min rest
    500pb steady pace
    1 min rest
    500sw steady pace
    1 min rest
    4*50 as 25 sprint, 25 easy, 10s rest
    200 choice

    Day 3
    200m warm up
    6*50 as (25 kick, 25 drill choice, 15s rest)
    2 mins rest
    1,000sw TT (steady pace at start, up the pace towards the end)
    4*50 as 25 sprint, 25 easy, 10s rest
    200 choice

    The week builds towards a 1,000m time trial. Goal throughout the week is to be swimming at a steady pace, in control of all aspects of your breathing, good technique throughout. Do not go out too fast for the TT- this means you will be consciously holding back your pace at the start. No excuses from anyone- I don't want to hear that your TT was messed up because you went out too quick, or that your goggles fogged off, or that you cramped, or that someone slower joined your lane, or that you miscounted laps, or that Scarlett Johanssen was swimming in the lane next door and her costume fell off. Consider the things that could go wrong beforehand, and prepare for them. No excuses!

    And lets have a bit more feedback on this thread, thats the only way it works.


    Few weeks behind, but going through all sessions.
    Day 2
    500sw steady pace, done in 10.30
    1 min rest
    500pb steady pace, done in 11:10.My legs were sinking even with a pb. the last 200m I swam without it.
    1 min rest
    500sw steady pace done 10:20


    Day 3,
    Focus on breathing (every 3 strokes), steady and good technique throughout. 1000 TT done in 21:10. Happy with this :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    850m in 20:22
    I thought I kept a fairly even pace and splits reflect this 10:09/10:13. Sorry about the 4 sec Kurt :)

    The goal was to swim steady for 10 mins, and then increase the pace. In that respect, had your splits been reversed, it would have ticked the right box. And as it transpired with a 4 sec difference, there's not a huge difference, so I could say all is good...

    Except for yourself, and who you are, and how competitive you are. Lessons to be learnt. You "failed" to hit the target. Its only a very minor red flag being raised, but nevertheless its food for thought. 10:30/10:13 would have been a success (albeit slower) for your 850m. Just bear in mind that you may have a tendency to go out too fast, that you may find it difficult to reign in the pace when required.

    I'm splitting hairs here, but nevertheless... Time can be irrelevant in a race- sometimes its more useful in the latter stages to up the pace and match (and then beat) a competitor. That's when you are in control.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ainsyjnr


    Kurt Godel wrote: »
    Day 1
    200m warm up
    10*50 as (25 hard, 25 easy, 10s rest)
    4*50fist
    2 mins rest
    20 min TT (start steady, and build the pace after 10 mins. I don't want anyone getting slower/tired after 10 mins, so judge your pace). Note your distance.
    4*50 alternate backstroke, breaststroke, 10s rest in between each 50
    200 choice warm down
    )

    Nice session. I enjoyed trying to recover from the hard 25s whilst swimming an easy 25, I probably needed 50 to get my breath back.

    Got the hang of the fist drill on the 4th one.

    A little sneaky putting the fist drill before the time trial...I went off like a rocket! I almost got it back but did 487m for the first 10 mins and 475m for the last 10. 975m in 20:15. I think that is about 60m better than last time, not much but the last one was done in a 20m pool and I now swim in a 25m. I think there is a little difference. I felt strong till the end though, I probably could have swam it all a little harder though.

    Two things I did a little differently this session, I pulled all the way down to my thigh and as I was exiting the water with my hand. My arm was almost straight back along my body as it started to come out of the water. Also, I concentrated more on my kick in keeping it small (within the space my body created in the water) but a little faster and with straight legs and pointed toes. I definitely felt as though my position was better when I was thinking about those things.


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