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Sinn Féin the most popular party in latest poll (mod warnings in OP)

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  • Options
    #632
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    Would you put the FG/LP in the same boat with their election promises.


    FG/Labour had to compromise on their respective election promises to form a coalition.

    SF/IRA disgustingly lied and covered-up child abuse and abused the people who came forward to reveal it.

    One is around 10 on the disgusting liar scale, the other 1.


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    #633
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    It doesn't matter whether they denied it, they were convicted as IRA members and therefore subject to he GFA.
    SF didn't have to do anything.

    It had to be related the IRA activities, being convicted of rape wasn't subject to the GFA


  • Options
    #634
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    efb wrote: »
    It had to be related the IRA activities, being convicted of rape wasn't subject to the GFA
    Nice deflection.
    Nobody said it wasn't and we were discussing an IRA member convicted of killing a Gardai.
    But feel free to blurt out any irrelavnt stuff if you need to get it off your chest.


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    #635
    yipeeeee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭yipeeeee


    Godge wrote: »
    They should never have been let out. Killing a member of AGS should mean life without parole.

    Because a member of AGS life is more important than an ordinary citizen???


    Riiiiiight..


  • Options
    #636
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Godge wrote: »
    FG/Labour had to compromise on their respective election promises to form a coalition.

    SF/IRA disgustingly lied and covered-up child abuse and abused the people who came forward to reveal it.

    One is around 10 on the disgusting liar scale, the other 1.

    If you replace compromise with blatantly lie, this post still makes little sense.


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    #637
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    And not every murderer, psychopath, rapist and child abuser gets convicted, but that doesn't mean they were innocent. I'm surprised at you if you thought otherwise.

    Just like O.J., we can know who is guilty of what without a court conviction, and we can know who said what, without a Dail record.





    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fintan-o-toole-tough-questions-for-adams-on-child-protection-1.1970440


    Plenty of others have analysed the TV programme and court transcript and come to the same conclusion. You can review the evidence yourself if you think differently.

    I have asked you on another thread for a link to original sources here, but you declined to post them. Just because another kneejerk anti-republican chimes in with your argument proves nothing. He is wrong about a few things in that article and I suspect he is selectively listening to this fabled interview. Please post it for us all to listen to.
    If Adams broke the law why isn't he being charged, shouldn't your beef be with the upholders of the law?


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    #638
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    yipeeeee wrote: »
    Because a member of AGS life is more important than an ordinary citizen???


    Riiiiiight..

    Murder of a guard, soldier or prison officer while they are on duty gets an automatic 40 year sentence rather than the standard life sentence of 25 years.
    This is because it is viewed as being an attack on the state as well as being an attack on them as an individual.


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    #639
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    Murder of a guard, soldier or prison officer while they are on duty gets an automatic 40 year sentence rather than the standard life sentence of 25 years.
    This is because it is viewed as being an attack on the state as well as being an attack on them as an individual.

    The charge was 'manslaughter' I think.


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    #640
    gladrags
    Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    If Adams broke the law why isn't he being charged, shouldn't your beef be with the upholders of the law?

    He cannot answer that question,because there is no evidence.

    No one has been charged,and no one will be.

    You might see a token gesture by the Gardai or PSNI, but there will be no charges.

    The best option now is to sit back and watch,while witnessing the breakdown of democracy and justice,by an hysterical mob baying for blood.


  • Options
    #641
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Godge wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fintan-o-toole-tough-questions-for-adams-on-child-protection-1.1970440


    Plenty of others have analysed the TV programme and court transcript and come to the same conclusion. You can review the evidence yourself if you think differently.

    hahaha - you called that 'evidence'. I think you need to look up the meaning of that word.


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    #642
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I have asked you on another thread for a link to original sources here, but you declined to post them. Just because another kneejerk anti-republican chimes in with your argument proves nothing. He is wrong about a few things in that article and I suspect he is selectively listening to this fabled interview. Please post it for us all to listen to.
    If Adams broke the law why isn't he being charged, shouldn't your beef be with the upholders of the law?


    He didn't break the law if he lied to a TV programme and told the truth in court. That makes a prosecution impossible as there are no witnesses as to which version of the story is true. I have explained this many many times to you.

    People therefore have to exercise their judgment as to whether he lied to the TV programme or he committed perjury. Simple. The fact that so many of you refuse to face up to that exposes the cult-like adoration of the Dear Leader Gerry. I mean, all you have to say is that he lied to the TV programme and then provide a reasonable excuse for his lies. But you can't say he isn't a liar or a perjurer.


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    #643
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    I think you should just post his 'lies' from the tv program and then post the 'truth' he told in court. Then we'd all know whatever it is you are going on about. I find the cult accusations absolutely hilarious considering SF is the most uncult like grouping of people you'll find. go to one of their ard fheis - you'll see and hear that shinners have various views on various things and have no problems expressing them, regardless of what the leadership thinks or says. Then again, its probably easier just repeating what you read in the papers, yes? Saves with all that pesky thinking etc.
    Godge wrote: »
    He didn't break the law if he lied to a TV programme and told the truth in court. That makes a prosecution impossible as there are no witnesses as to which version of the story is true. I have explained this many many times to you.

    People therefore have to exercise their judgment as to whether he lied to the TV programme or he committed perjury. Simple. The fact that so many of you refuse to face up to that exposes the cult-like adoration of the Dear Leader Gerry. I mean, all you have to say is that he lied to the TV programme and then provide a reasonable excuse for his lies. But you can't say he isn't a liar or a perjurer.


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    #644
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    maccored wrote: »
    I think you should just post his 'lies' from the tv program and then post the 'truth' he told in court. Then we'd all know whatever it is you are going on about. I find the cult accusations absolutely hilarious considering SF is the most uncult like grouping of people you'll find. go to one of their ard fheis - you'll see and hear that shinners have various views on various things and have no problems expressing them, regardless of what the leadership thinks or says. Then again, its probably easier just repeating what you read in the papers, yes? Saves with all that pesky thinking etc.


    I don't know which was lies and which was truth, there is a difference so one was lies. Nobody can tell objectively which one was untrue but one of the accounts has to be because they contradicted each other.

    The articles I have posted quote directly from the TV programme and from the court transcript. Given that the authors did their homework, there is no need for me to repeat their work. If you want to produce links to transcripts that show he told the same story both times, by all means go ahead, but you do know that is impossible.

    I still don't see any writ issued against Fintan O'Toole.


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    #645
    gladrags
    Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    Godge wrote: »
    People therefore have to exercise their judgment as to whether he lied to the TV programme or he commited perjury.

    "People exercising their judgement" on the guilt or innocence of an individual!!!

    He is innocent in the eyes of the law.

    You are proposing a" Kangaroo court" style of justice.


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    #646
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    He didn't break the law if he lied to a TV programme and told the truth in court. That makes a prosecution impossible as there are no witnesses as to which version of the story is true. I have explained this many many times to you.

    People therefore have to exercise their judgment as to whether he lied to the TV programme or he committed perjury. Simple. The fact that so many of you refuse to face up to that exposes the cult-like adoration of the Dear Leader Gerry. I mean, all you have to say is that he lied to the TV programme and then provide a reasonable excuse for his lies. But you can't say he isn't a liar or a perjurer.

    Are you going to post the source for your detective work or not? What is the problem posting it? Does it exist at all, because I can't find it. Is there even anywhere that he was asked to explain it by one of our 'balanced and fair' journalist class?


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    #647
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    gladrags wrote: »
    "People exercising their judgement" on the guilt or innocence of an individual!!!

    He is innocent in the eyes of the law.

    You are proposing a" Kangaroo court" style of justice.


    What a stupid contribution to this debate.

    I am prepared to fully accept that he is innocent of perjury if that is your position, no problem with that. The consequences of that is that he told barefaced lies to the TV programme. That is not a crime, he can't be charged with anything for lying to a TV programme but a person with half a brain, when faced with the evidence that he told two different stories can conclude that he is a liar.

    When can people get it into their head that it is not a crime to tell a lie to a TV programme but it can get you labelled as a liar.


  • Options
    #648
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    What a stupid contribution to this debate.

    Can you post a shred of irrefutable evidence that SF covered-up anything?

    If you can't then what happened and what has been happening is a 'kangaroo court' because as far as I can see SF have been convicted of this cover-up without any evidence of any kind.
    If there was a 'cover-up' can you tell us all how this got into a court of law, promptly, when the complaint was eventually made BY THE ONLY PERSON WHO COULD MAKE IT and with the prosecution apparently happy to proceed until THE ONLY PERSON WHO COULD PROVE THE CASE abandoned the case?

    Your definition of a 'cover-up' needs clarifiction from mine.


  • Options
    #649
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Are you going to post the source for your detective work or not? What is the problem posting it? Does it exist at all, because I can't find it. Is there even anywhere that he was asked to explain it by one of our 'balanced and fair' journalist class?


    I have posted it many times, you just choose to ignore it, here are just two of the many, many articles that set out the circumstances. I can post some from the Indo as well if you like, it was also in the Examiner. The Sunday Tribune did a big expose of his lies but I can't find that anywhere.


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fintan-o-toole-tough-questions-for-adams-on-child-protection-1.1970440


    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/liam-adams-sordid-episode-has-left-sinn-fein-president-gerry-adams-politically-toxic-29626240.html


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    #650
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Can you post a shred of irrefutable evidence that SF covered-up anything?

    If you can't then what happened and what has been happening is a 'kangaroo court' because as far as I can see SF have been convicted of this cover-up without any evidence of any kind.
    If there was a 'cover-up' can you tell us all how this got into a court of law, promptly, when the complaint was eventually made BY THE ONLY PERSON WHO COULD MAKE IT and with the prosecution apparently happy to proceed until THE ONLY PERSON WHO COULD PROVE THE CASE abandoned the case?

    Your definition of a 'cover-up' needs clarifiction from mine.

    You are mixing yourself up.

    My post related to the Gerry Adams lies as exposed by numerous newspaper articles, most recently by Fintan O'Toole. I am posting the article again for you in case you missed it.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fintan-o-toole-tough-questions-for-adams-on-child-protection-1.1970440


    He can't be convicted in a court of law of being a liar, so demanding I withdraw what I am saying because he hasn't been convicted is a silly contribution at best.

    What is most chilling about this article is the following:

    "If Enda Kenny, Micheál Martin, Joan Burton or Peter Robinson had this abysmal record on child protection and this history of evasive answers, we know what Sinn Féin would have to say about it.
    That not one of the party’s strong-minded women can manage to say it about Gerry Adams is deeply creepy. If you think ordinary cronyism is bad, consider what this party will do to protect one of its own."


  • Options
    #651
    gladrags
    Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    Godge wrote: »
    What a stupid contribution to this debate.

    I am prepared to fully accept that he is innocent of perjury if that is your position, no problem with that. The consequences of that is that he told barefaced lies to the TV programme. That is not a crime, he can't be charged with anything for lying to a TV programme but a person with half a brain, when faced with the evidence that he told two different stories can conclude that he is a liar.

    When can people get it into their head that it is not a crime to tell a lie to a TV programme but it can get you labelled as a liar.


    "People therefore have to exercise their judgment as to whether he lied to the TV programme or he committed perjury. Simple."


    I quote exactly what you said above.

    Perjury?????

    Can you explain how you have a right to decide if someone has commited Perjury?

    Thank you so much.


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    #652
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    You are mixing yourself up.

    My post related to the Gerry Adams lies as exposed by numerous newspaper articles, most recently by Fintan O'Toole. I am posting the article again for you in case you missed it.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fintan-o-toole-tough-questions-for-adams-on-child-protection-1.1970440


    He can't be convicted in a court of law of being a liar, so demanding I withdraw what I am saying because he hasn't been convicted is a silly contribution at best.

    What is most chilling about this article is the following:

    "If Enda Kenny, Micheál Martin, Joan Burton or Peter Robinson had this abysmal record on child protection and this history of evasive answers, we know what Sinn Féin would have to say about it.
    That not one of the party’s strong-minded women can manage to say it about Gerry Adams is deeply creepy. If you think ordinary cronyism is bad, consider what this party will do to protect one of its own."

    Enda Kenny/Joan Burton do have an abysmal record on child protection, as the leaders of the CURRENT government...he/she has failed to introduce them to protect my children, currently in the education system. So O'Toole is wrong and up to his usual kneejerkery and selective hysterical fingerpointing.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/abuse-survivor-louise-okeefe-seeks-meeting-with-taoiseach-278075.html
    On Friday James MacGuill, solicitor for approximately 20 people who had lodged cases against the State, said the Government needed to make its position on these cases clear.

    He said he suspected there had been no change and that the Government would not take on board the decision in Ms O’Keeffe’s case.

    20 proven cases Godge...care to share some of your hysteria with them?


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    #653
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    gladrags wrote: »
    "People therefore have to exercise their judgment as to whether he lied to the TV programme or he committed perjury. Simple."


    I quote exactly what you said above.

    Perjury?????

    Can you explain how you have a right to decide if someone has commited Perjury?

    Thank you so much.

    I did not decide that he had committed perjury but I have every right to exercise my judgment and decide which I believe to be the case.

    I said it is impossible to know whether he told a lie to the TV programme or whether he committed perjury. By logic and by reason, it has to be one or the other. It can never be tested in a court of law because there is no way of proving which was the untruth.

    In my opinion, he lied to the TV programme but that is my opinion.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Enda Kenny/Joan Burton do have an abysmal record on child protection, as the leaders of the CURRENT government...he/she has failed to introduce them to protect my children, currently in the education system. So O'Toole is wrong and up to his usual kneejerkery and selective hysterical fingerpointing.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/abuse-survivor-louise-okeefe-seeks-meeting-with-taoiseach-278075.html



    20 proven cases Godge...care to share some of your hysteria with them?


    Avoiding the question again, back to whataboutery.

    Again, in your opinion, did Gerry lie to the TV programme or did he commit perjury in court?


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    #654
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    What is most chilling about this article is the following:

    "If Enda Kenny, Micheál Martin, Joan Burton or Peter Robinson had this abysmal record on child protection and this history of evasive answers, we know what Sinn Féin would have to say about it."
    Enda Kenny and Micheál Martin do have an abysmal record on child protection and a history of evasive answers.
    Missed the bit where you were whining and moaning about that.


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    #655
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    I did not decide that he had committed perjury but I have every right to exercise my judgment and decide which I believe to be the case.

    I said it is impossible to know whether he told a lie to the TV programme or whether he committed perjury. By logic and by reason, it has to be one or the other. It can never be tested in a court of law because there is no way of proving which was the untruth.

    In my opinion, he lied to the TV programme but that is my opinion.





    Avoiding the question again, back to whataboutery.

    Again, in your opinion, did Gerry lie to the TV programme or did he commit perjury in court?

    You are asking me to decide the issue based on newspaper columnists opinion of an interview? Sorry, no can do. I am still trying to find this interview which now seems to have been a UTV one and not as you claimed a BBC one. Have you seen it yourself or are you being led by 'journalistic' opinion pieces?
    Easy to see how suitable a juror you would be and the 'quality' of evidence you require to convict.


  • Options
    #656
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    a person with half a brain, when faced with the evidence that he told two different stories can conclude that he is a liar.
    Interesting. What about a person with a full brain?:D


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    #657
    gladrags
    Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    Godge wrote: »
    I said it is impossible to know whether he told a lie to the TV programme or whether he committed perjury. By logic and by reason, it has to be one or the other. It can never be tested in a court of law because there is no way of proving which was the untruth.

    You said "the people" would decide if he commited perjury.

    Stop prevaricating,no more porky pies.


  • Options
    #658
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Enda Kenny and Micheál Martin do have an abysmal record on child protection and a history of evasive answers.
    Missed the bit where you were whining and moaning about that.

    What's with all the bluster from people who defend Sinn Fein?

    Err.. never mind what Sinn Fein did or didn't do, look at Fine Gael and Fianna Fail!

    Why? Why look at Fine Gael and Fianna Fail? Why can't we look at Sinn Fein?

    But if you are going to go down the route of looking at Enda Kenny and Michael Martin... they haven't covered themselves in glory, but they have hardly had an "abysmal" record - mainly because neither was in power (or positions of power) when such abuses were taking place. Enda, of course, was guilty of fighting Louise O'Keefe, which should not be forgotten.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Soundbites, like this

    would it even occur to you, in light of what we know of Enda's failures with regard to people who have suffered abuse because of state failures, to ask 'wut?' about that load of offensive waffle?

    Oh no... the "wut" was in relation to current child protection in schools. The soundbites thing is patently obvious.


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    #659
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    ah now Godge, come on. You are starting to sound really silly here. You claimed he lied, but now you dont know what the lie as. very good - that indo job really does seem to be right up your street.
    Godge wrote: »
    I don't know which was lies and which was truth, there is a difference so one was lies. Nobody can tell objectively which one was untrue but one of the accounts has to be because they contradicted each other.

    The articles I have posted quote directly from the TV programme and from the court transcript. Given that the authors did their homework, there is no need for me to repeat their work. If you want to produce links to transcripts that show he told the same story both times, by all means go ahead, but you do know that is impossible.

    I still don't see any writ issued against Fintan O'Toole.


  • Options
    #660
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    maccored wrote: »
    ah now Godge, come on. You are starting to sound really silly here. You claimed he lied, but now you dont know what the lie as. very good - that indo job really does seem to be right up your street.

    This is why basic logic should be taught in schools.

    If I told a journalist that I was in Dublin all day on a particular date, and told a court of law that I was in Cork all day on that particular date, then I've either lied or committed perjury.

    You are frantically trying to argue that because it's unclear which statement was untrue, then I neither lied nor committed perjury, but apparently that's because logic is optional where SF are concerned.


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    #661
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    maccored wrote: »
    ah now Godge, come on. You are starting to sound really silly here. You claimed he lied, but now you dont know what the lie as. very good - that indo job really does seem to be right up your street.
    He lied that time he lied so he is a liar. Duh. ;)


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