Sexy street harassment

tritium

Paige Brave Poker wrote: »

Do you usually base your fear on statistics though? Say you're swimming somewhere off the coast of Ireland and see a sharklike object in the water beneath you, is your response "it's pretty much statistically impossible that I would be attacked by a shark here, and even if I were attacked, very very few people are killed by sharks annually, I'll just ignore it"? Or is it "right now, at this moment, I'm in a situation which has the potential to escalate into something very unpleasant. The potential consequences, no matter how unlikely, are unpleasant enough for me to be frightened and to do what I can to prevent them".

People who engage in behaviour like the men in the post you quoted are almost certainly deliberately trying to intimidate or frighten women, naturally the women are going to be frightened. And no matter how much you rationally know that you are not likely to be violently sexually assaulted, that is not a comforting thought when you are in a situation which potentially could escalate into an assault.

I don't disagree with you-thats not the point I addressed. Andrew pointed to this as a reason why this is worse for women, I pointed out that the reason is a) nonsense from an actual fact based perspective and b) if they actually feel that way in spite of the reality then a fair amount of the blame for that lies with those who promote a culture if fear where 'every man is a potential rapist'

andrew

tritium wrote: »

Seriously, what nonsense. Given that males are more likely to be the victims of random violent attacks I think the issue here is more the 'culture of fear' that's been created than any real worry.

This is the kind of trope that plays into the 'all men are potential rapists' tripe so beloved of certain commentators.

Harassment is wrong, but the kind of argument you've offered here is also wrong

Males are not more likely to be the victims of random violent attacks from women. Other men, sure, but not women. In general, I'd stand by my assertion that men, in general, rarely if ever feel threatened by a woman. That's why it's not the same.

I'd agree that the culture of fear that has been created is a bad thing. But what's a woman supposed to do? If she regards some random complement from a guy as a threat, she's being too fearful. But if she does get attacked, then it's her fault for talking to the guy, or dressing a certain way, or putting herself in that situation. The 'all men are rapists' tripe has it's basis in the attitudes of people who say that harassment is harmless on the one hand, but whose response to a woman being attacked is often that it must have been her fault somehow.

The fact is that while men can regard it as 'not a real worry', a woman has no idea what the intentions of a guy doing the catcalling are. If you're a guy it's easy to say it's not a real worry because you've never been in a situation in which half of the adult population have a reasonable chance of being able to beat you up. Seriously, men are vastly stronger than women.* Even if it's unlikely he'll harm her, her best response is to assume the worst because if she doesn't, and she does get attacked, not only does that mean all the bad things that come with being attacked, people will often assume it was her fault.


*Check out differences in table 5 and 2 of this paper. Even though the differences are smaller than was previously thought, they're still massive.

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tritium wrote: »

I don't disagree with you-thats not the point I addressed. Andrew pointed to this as a reason why this is worse for women, I pointed out that the reason is a) nonsense from an actual fact based perspective and b) if they actually feel that way in spite of the reality then a fair amount of the blame for that lies with those who promote a culture if fear where 'every man is a potential rapist'

I also dislike that culture of fear and think that misandrist shaming of male sexuality gets deliberately conflated with or disguised as sexual harassment/assault activism. However, you don't need to be thinking "every man is a potential rapist" to be afraid in a situation where a man is deliberately behaving in an intimidating and sexually aggressive manner, even if it is only verbally. It's not irrational or weak-minded to think, in that situation "this man is a potential rapist", because at the very least he's exploiting that fear. If a man says "hello" or "you're looking well love" to you on the street and you crack out the rape whistle, yes, that's stupid. If a group of drunken men leer at you late at night and you're afraid, it's not that you've been spending too much time on Jezebel.

smash

American chat up lines are so cringe!

TomJerryPoochy

How does one chat a woman up in the street?

Is saying hello permissable?

secondrowgal

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Now that you mention holding doors open etc thats something i wish more women and men would start acknowledging.

I dunno how many times i have held a door open for someone and in some cases id stand there and a few people would pass threw the door and most of the time they dont even look at you. The same when im walking down the street and i notice its women who mostly do this but they walk right threw you as if your a ghost. Its left down to me to move out of the way or else someone is gonna end up on there arse and naturally there the smaller ones so!

Some people with buggys do the very same thing.

I know these are all some what off topic but i think all of this including comments falls into an area there are a lot of problems with and its how some people still need to get a grasp of how to deal with others in social and public situations.

I dont know weather its lack of manners or weather some people just dont think about others when there out.

I agree with you! Wrecks my head....

I usually deal with it by a fairly loud "you're welcome" as they pass me by silently.

Neyite

I think what makes me feel uncomfortable about comments on the street is the fact that you are just trying to do your own thing - pick up X from that shop, fill a prescription, wonder what you should have for dinner, maybe think about a problem at work, and you get interrupted or held up by a stranger who has decided to openly assess you sexually.

He is looking you up and down, assessing your breasts and legs and arse, imagining you naked and thinking "Oh Yeah, I would" And what is worse, he is telling you that he is.

You know that in that moment, he is thinking sexual thoughts about you. That is what is creepy. That is what is deeply uncomfortable. So you are being forced to acknowedge his sexual interest in you. At least with the lad behind the sunglasses having a discreet perv, I'm none the wiser.

And the difference between this, and getting chatted up in a bar or a club, is that in the latter, you know you will probably get those kind of things said to you - its an equal playing field, where you are out looking, as are they. Women in clubs and bars are choosing to be chatted up, and if you are not, at least you know that you are in an arena where the odd lad coming along to chat you up is to be expected.

I'm in a long term relationship, so I dont want to be chatted up. I dont care if men find me attractive, I dont need their validation for my ego. I dont want it and find it intrusive. So I dont go to clubs and on the rare occasion that I may end up in one, I know that I might get chatted up but thats ok, because that is the nature of the club, to pull. And I'd nicely turn down the bloke and get on with my night.

I'd love the guys here who think its harmless and just a bit of craic to honestly say that they would have no problem whatsoever if it was four 30 year old men catcalling their 14 year old sister or daughter while she is just waiting for her bus home.

smurgen

Dr. Lollington wrote: »

No, I don't think it had anything to with race in Brixton really. The majority of people there are black to be fair but there's a fair clatter of white people there now too.

it's just men hanging around on Brixton hill drinking cans of cheap p*ss. They probably mean no harm and are just bored or they find it funny. It never really bothered me but one time a gang of about four men started walking in front of me and circling me. That was scary and taking it too far.

i think that's what it comes down to. No women is gonna mind a man saying' Hey sexy. have a good day'. You might even be flattered. It's just knowing where to draw the line between the messers and the genuine weirdos who could actually harm you. There's an underlying fear that's been instilled in woman to be on your guard in case you're dragged down a lane-way and raped! Sad but true.

I'm a 6 2 man and weigh 16 st. I lived in streathem hill and used to get the bus in brixton. Only lived there for about 6 months and was jumped and almost got my phone taken twice by guys way smaller than me. Also had plenty of other weird people call me and try to talk to me there. Had a guy pop out of a dark alley right into my face one night and it ended in fisticuffs. Brixton is just an extremely busy place and I think all of these extremely busy places bring out some right nut jobs from the woodwork. I know it must be terrifying for a woman in these situations but as a bigger male you normally assume a guy who's gonna tackle you is gonna be packing a weapon of some sort so that adds to the fear.

ash23

I like compliments. I like when my boyfriend tells me I look gorgeous or that he loves my tits in a certain top.
I like when my friends admire my new outfit or tell me my hair looks nice.

I don't like when a guy leers at me when I don't know him. Or when a stranger makes a remark about my breasts.
I don't like it when a guy I don't know sits down at my table and pretty much refuses to leave or insists on buying me a drink.

Nobody likes unwanted attention even if it's meant to be positive.

There's a huge difference between seeing a girl on the street and saying "hi" to see if she's open for conversation and making her uncomfortable by saying "hi gorgeous" because the latter is too overly familiar and intimate to be getting from a total stranger.


I appreciate that for men it must be hard to get the balance right. They're expected to make the first move but seriously, are social cues that hard to read?
You would never meet a new colleague and straight away start calling them "honey" or "sweety" or comment on their appearance. You'd be normal and nice and friendly.
Boundaries!!!

Same applies with a stranger on the street. Approach them with a smile and a "hi" but don't be a douche and start making overly intimate references to their looks. It's just not necessary, it's not complimentary and it usually makes the woman feel really uncomfortable and self concious.


Like Pantis Noble Call, women shouldn't have to "check themselves" to see if they're doing something wrong that invites unwanted attention from men.

Ficheall

I've had a couple of positive comments on my hair from drunk girls - even had one come up uninvited and stick her unwelcome fingers in my hair, have had a drunk girl block my way by walking backwards in front of me and propositioning me, have had a girl in a group of other girls shout "I'd like to do him" at me across the road (I was, if it matters, on my own, and wearing very non-revealing clothing), and have had a pair of drunk girls follow me and ask me if they could come home with me (I should possibly have taken them up on that, in hindsight...) .

As a non-drinking male, who am I supposed to blame for this appalling behaviour? Women or drunken people?

Tiddlypeeps

Ficheall wrote: »

As a non-drinking male, who am I supposed to blame for this appalling behaviour? Women or drunken people?

Why do you need to blame an entire demographic at all. Why not just blame the individuals involved?

Chunners

See some of the guys on here can't empathize because they are thinking of it from the point of view of "If a woman said that to me it wouldn't bother me in the slightest so women are over reacting", so see they are not seeing a threat. It'd be different for them now if they were walking down the side lane of the George some night on their own and there were 6 big gay guys outside and the gay guys started saying "Hey sexy, you're hot" and then maybe 3 of them decide to follow him and 2 flank him while one walks behind and they start "playfully" nudging him and asking "So where are you going tonight? whats your name? whats your number?" and then when he tries to walk away maybe one of them steps in front of him and another "playfully" grabs his arm and he realizes that he is suddenly trapped with his back to a wall and 3 bigger guys surrounding him saying "Hey we just want to chat, there's no need to be rude, we're just saying hello" and realizes just how vulnerable he really is. I'm not saying it would happen or that gay guys are like that (most aren't in my experience) but if it did I can guarantee he wouldn't be standing there thinking "Ahh sure this is just some harmless flirting"

Lollipops23

I generally consider myself pretty easygoing when it comes to guys attempting to chat me up- if I'm not interested I'll let them know in a polite and non-insulting manner (hey, respect works both ways), and expect them to back off. A few months ago I was in a situation whereby the guy wouldn't leave me be an d I was getting annoyed and a tiny bit scared at how aggressive he was being- he seemed to thrive on my discomfort tbh. In the end I told him (edit, screamed at him) that if he touched my leg again I would "f**king end him". I could have been more eloquent, but over half an hour of his clearly unwelcome attention had worn me down.

I, and no woman, should have to put up with that nonsense. My story isn't all that unusual, it happens every night of the week in cities around the world. Something is very wrong when men feel that it's acceptable to treat someone like that.

TomJerryPoochy

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I generally consider myself pretty easygoing when it comes to guys attempting to chat me up- if I'm not interested I'll let them know in a polite and non-insulting manner (hey, respect works both ways), and expect them to back off. A few months ago I was in a situation whereby the guy wouldn't leave me be an d I was getting annoyed and a tiny bit scared at how aggressive he was being- he seemed to thrive on my discomfort tbh. In the end I told him (edit, screamed at him) that if he touched my leg again I would "f**king end him". I could have been more eloquent, but over half an hour of his clearly unwelcome attention had worn me down.

I, and no woman, should have to put up with that nonsense. My story isn't all that unusual, it happens every night of the week in cities around the world. Something is very wrong when men feel that it's acceptable to treat someone like that.

That's clearly harassment, saying hello is not.

FullblownRose

Ficheall wrote: »

I've had a couple of positive comments on my hair from drunk girls - even had one come up uninvited and stick her unwelcome fingers in my hair, have had a drunk girl block my way by walking backwards in front of me and propositioning me, have had a girl in a group of other girls shout "I'd like to do him" at me across the road (I was, if it matters, on my own, and wearing very non-revealing clothing), and have had a pair of drunk girls follow me and ask me if they could come home with me (I should possibly have taken them up on that, in hindsight...) .

As a non-drinking male, who am I supposed to blame for this appalling behaviour? Women or drunken people?

Nasty people come in all kinds of meat sacks. Sorry to hear about that.

Ficheall

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Why not just blame the individuals involved?

That's not really the AH way, now is it?

It's in the forum charter that every debate must be turned into an "us versus them" argument. The trick is just to find what demographic your "us" is.

ash23

TomJerryPoochy wrote: »

That's clearly harassment, saying hello is not.

Saying hello isn't.

Saying "hello gorgeous" isn't just saying hello though.

Chunners

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I generally consider myself pretty easygoing when it comes to guys attempting to chat me up- if I'm not interested I'll let them know in a polite and non-insulting manner (hey, respect works both ways), and expect them to back off. A few months ago I was in a situation whereby the guy wouldn't leave me be an d I was getting annoyed and a tiny bit scared at how aggressive he was being- he seemed to thrive on my discomfort tbh. In the end I told him (edit, screamed at him) that if he touched my leg again I would "f**king end him". I could have been more eloquent, but over half an hour of his clearly unwelcome attention had worn me down.

I, and no woman, should have to put up with that nonsense. My story isn't all that unusual, it happens every night of the week in cities around the world. Something is very wrong when men feel that it's acceptable to treat someone like that.

Yeah and the worse is the ones that you think have taken the hint and are going away when all of a sudden they will come up with something like "OK I'll leave you alone if you give me a kiss/hug first" and some will even go so far as to grab you and try force a kiss/hug on you. All you lads reading this who do **** like that (you know who you are) here's a piece of advice, no matter how drunk you are that behavior is not "harmless fun", it is ****ing terrifying.

MissKittenfire

suicide_circus wrote: »

Much more likely to happen in the US than here

Not true at all.

I always wear a cost over a nice outfit in some parts of town.

kylith

TomJerryPoochy wrote: »

That's clearly harassment, saying hello is not.

Depends on how it's said. There's a difference between a friendly hello and a lecherous hello.

Tzardine

She is not even that good looking to be honest.

J Mysterio

1. Thread name is amusing.

2. Woman is not hot. Not particularly good looking, kinda stumpy.

3. Just looking over/ making eye contact should let you know if you should even bother. So many women look really annoyed if people so much as look at them.

Grayson

Ficheall wrote: »

I've had a couple of positive comments on my hair from drunk girls - even had one come up uninvited and stick her unwelcome fingers in my hair, have had a drunk girl block my way by walking backwards in front of me and propositioning me, have had a girl in a group of other girls shout "I'd like to do him" at me across the road (I was, if it matters, on my own, and wearing very non-revealing clothing), and have had a pair of drunk girls follow me and ask me if they could come home with me (I should possibly have taken them up on that, in hindsight...) .

As a non-drinking male, who am I supposed to blame for this appalling behaviour? Women or drunken people?

I shave my head with a wet blade. I'm as bald as you can get. I have women rubbing my head all the time when i drink. Guys are worse. I've had guys slap my head and even lick it.

How Soon Is Now

Tzardine wrote: »

She is not even that good looking to be honest.

It's been said enough times in here already. Each and every time it just adds to more that can be said about us.

Lollipops23

TomJerryPoochy wrote: »

That's clearly harassment, saying hello is not.

You can see why, if you put up with sh*t like this on a reasonably regular basis, your guard would be up though?
Also, in my experience, a random man who just says "hello" out of nowhere on the street is most likely going to be a creep. Unless he's asking for directions or something

Pat Mustard

When I was out in Australia, I'd take the subway home after work. There used to be a young blonde lady handing out flyers. Every evening, she used to say 'hi gorgeous', in a bored tone of voice. I'd always say hi back.

One day, after her daily salutation, I was going off on my way, when I heard her saying the same thing to somebody else. I didn't look around. I couldn't. She had moved on, without even telling me. Our relationship was over. I was crushed.

No-one calls me gorgeous anymore.

Dr. Lollington

smurgen wrote: »

I'm a 6 2 man and weigh 16 st. I lived in streathem hill and used to get the bus in brixton. Only lived there for about 6 months and was jumped and almost got my phone taken twice by guys way smaller than me. Also had plenty of other weird people call me and try to talk to me there. Had a guy pop out of a dark alley right into my face one night and it ended in fisticuffs. Brixton is just an extremely busy place and I think all of these extremely busy places bring out some right nut jobs from the woodwork. I know it must be terrifying for a woman in these situations but as a bigger male you normally assume a guy who's gonna tackle you is gonna be packing a weapon of some sort so that adds to the fear.

Yeah, it's a pretty scary place alright, especially on the hill towards Streathem. I moved to Camberwell after that which is just an extension of Brixton really and had the exact same kind of hassle.

The weirdos in Camberwell didn't bother me as much because they seemed genuinely nuts whereas the ones in Brixton were more sinister and sleazy. There are alot of men hanging around in front of doorways looking shifty with other men coming up to them and people coming and going. It's hard to tell if they're pimps or drug dealers or both!

They are proper scary and I'd take 'howrya gorgeous, giz a smile' over those men any day!!

TomJerryPoochy

Lollipops23 wrote: »

You can see why, if you put up with sh*t like this on a reasonably regular basis, your guard would be up though?
Also, in my experience, a random man who just says "hello" out of nowhere on the street is most likely going to be a creep. Unless he's asking for directions or something

Maybe he is or maybe he wants to try and chat you up.

MissKittenfire

The Mustard wrote: »

When I was out in Australia, I'd take the subway home after work. There used to be a young blonde lady handing out flyers. Every evening, she used to say 'hi gorgeous', in a bored tone of voice. I'd always say hi back.

One day, after her daily salutation, I was going off on my way, when I heard her saying the same thing to somebody else. I didn't look around. I couldn't. She had moved on, without even telling me. Our relationship was over. I was crushed.

No-one calls me gorgeous anymore.

You ARE gorgeous mustard.

MissKittenfire

By the way women do not have to be attractive to be harassed.