Swimming for Tri

tunney

joey100 wrote: »

I've seen people use them shorts as their swim shorts. That's what they will wear for the whole session. Anyone know if they are allowed for use in pool tri's? Out of curiosity more than anything.

No they are as banned as banned can be.

In 2004 Ray Darcy signed up to Skerries Tri (when it was a 3dtri race), he was told to do all his swim training using fins. He was delighted with his progress. Race week came along and he tried swimming without them................

I don't see the point in these shorts - other than helping pi$$ poor swimmers delude themselves into thinking they are competent.

pgibbo

TI allowed them in Joey last year. That might not be the case this year but they were allowed last year.

If your races are going to be all wetsuit then using the shorts wouldn't be as bad as using fins. I wouldn't advocate it but it's better than using fins.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

TI allowed them in Joey last year. That might not be the case this year but they were allowed last year.

If your races are going to be all wetsuit then using the shorts wouldn't be as bad as using fins. I wouldn't advocate it but it's better than using fins.

WHAT?????? They let buoyancy aids in the pull? Or is it a case of the officials being clueless?

bryangiggsy

The main training benefit i see with them is practising your kick while your hips are elevated and restricted (exactly like when in a wetsuit)

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

But its a common misconception that you *should* be faster with a pull buoy. If you are a top end swimmer you should be slower.

Triathletes will be faster with a pull buoy but someone like Tango (any maybe you Peter) will be slower.

iam way slower without a pb, especially at cruising speed.

Personally, I do actually think it's not a bad or a good thing to be faster or slower with a pb . ( for a triathlete)
it tells you many things about your stroke which is great and then one can consider is it worth to adress it ...

in other words when i see that a guy swims 40 sec faster over 400m in a wetsuit and the wetsuit tt time is where is needs to be iam not too worried about this ,if the wetsuit corrects the problem , great ..
iam not the one who made up the swim distances and the focus on wetsuits in triathlon , i just use the system we work in. ( and as it is upper arm strenght favors a strong kick and or v good water position )


in the current system I iam much more worried if a swimmer dosnt get at least 20 sec faster in the wetsuit as this is where Irish people do 90% plus of races in
At the end what matters is what time you swim in a tri and not in the pool.



I think the way you look at swim shorts is not correct ,at the same time i totally agree with your flipper explanation if it dosnt work its no good. but if it works its good and we cant say this without trying.

pgibbo

tunney wrote: »

WHAT?????? They let buoyancy aids in the pull? Or is it a case of the officials being clueless?

The person that used them rang TI directly and got the OK off them.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

The person that used them rang TI directly and got the OK off them.

WOW, just WOW. Can you use a motorboat, motorbike and rollerblades???

peter kern

pgibbo wrote: »

The person that used them rang TI directly and WRONGLY got the OK off them.

...

zico10

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Sometimes this forum can be useful as a sounding board. There's no doubt that toes pointing downwards will cause a lot of drag and slow you down. And its quite true too that a lot of running will hinder this ability even further (tendons around the ankles and calf flex in completely different ways for running and swimming). Think I just got a light bulb moment- need to look up specific stretches for increased flexibility in this area.

You might want to consider any hill running you have planned- even greater opposite plantar flexion involved in running up hills.

Did you mean reconsider?

peter kern wrote: »

zico its the pb lifting up your hips, making you more streamlined and therefore faster.
your kick is actually not too bad ( ie your legs are high in the water ) the the more weight you are losing around your waist the more your hips are sinking ( id say you are now about 1.5cm lower with your hips than 3 month ago.
The interesting thing is your legs are actually staying high despite they actually get skinnier as well but you defo lost more weight around the waist .
fly kick one arm freestyle stroke drill can work the only thing with you is that you are still very stiff when you swim , it will be a long process (it could go horribly wrong or help but why not trying it )

The conversation has moved on from when these posts were made, but for what it's worth;

The way I look at things is training for tri is always going to be trade off between the three sports. I realise I could be a better swimmer if I shelved cycling and running for a few months. Likewise I'd be a better cyclist or runner if those were all I focussed on. With an IM in September, I can't afford to drop any of them though. So it becomes a question of prioritising between the three.

Right now the priority is swimming. I'm not deliberately putting on weight to give me the extra buoyancy, but I've no target running or tri races anytime soon, so I'm not targetting my racing weight yet either. In a few months, I'll have to de-prioritise swimming and give greater weight to biking and running. I've no doubt I'll be lighter then, probably more fatigued doing my swim sessions, and no doubt not swimming as well as I might otherwise be. But that's a tradeoff I'll have to make.

I get what you say Peter about how being more relaxed would be beneficial, but for Kurt Godel I don't think there is any need for me to worry about the effect hill running might have on ankle flexibility. I think the pros of the IMRA races will outweigh the cons.

My ultimate swim goal by season's end is to be able to swim as fast and comfortably as I possibly can, despite the limitations that being a scrawny runner with skinny legs, inflexible ankles, and toes pointing to the bottom of the pool brings.

pgibbo

peter kern wrote: »

...

They even rang twice to be sure Peter.

Kurt Godel

zico10 wrote: »

Did you mean reconsider?

Yes, I meant reconsider, and I meant that in the context of the title of the thread, rather than on a macro Triathlon level. Very few good hill runners are also good at triathlon, and those that are are proportionally worse as swimmers. I don't think its just a weight issue, I think its (primarily) a calf/ankle issue.

I tried to purposefully point the toes further back last night in the pool- made a huge difference, I hadn't realised quite how less flexible my ankle has become since upping the run volume over the past couple of months, nor how much drag is caused by toes pointing down. Ultimately though, what matters is gun to tape in a few months time; as you say its all about finding the correct trade off.

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Yes, I meant reconsider, and I meant that in the context of the title of the thread, rather than on a macro Triathlon level. Very few good hill runners are also good at triathlon, and those that are are proportionally worse as swimmers. I don't think its just a weight issue, I think its (primarily) a calf/ankle issue.

I'm trying to remember the name of a triathlete, actually there are two of them, that are fell runners and fairly good swimmers.

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

I'm trying to remember the name of a triathlete, actually there are two of them, that are fell runners and fairly good swimmers.

Kevin Keane is one (although I'd stand by my swim point).

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Kevin Keane is one (although I'd stand by my swim point).

Sorry I meant really good - Alistair and Jonathan ..............

peter kern

pgibbo wrote: »

They even rang twice to be sure Peter.

are you saying its better to give twice the wrong answer ;-)

Kurt Godel

@ Zico

I did two things tonight as a direct result of this thread:

1) pointed my toes right back, and used the feet as flippers for balance. Eureka. I just found back all the time I had lost over the past couple of months. Think my problem was toes pointing down leading to drag. It's harder to point them back after being run-intensive, so I'm going to work on flexibility of ankle, calf, and plantar fascia; all of which are contrapositive between running and swimming.

2) Finally made the effort to fly-kick off the wall. Well worth it.

zico10

Kurt Godel wrote: »

@ Zico

I did two things tonight as a direct result of this thread:

1) pointed my toes right back, and used the feet as flippers for balance. Eureka. I just found back all the time I had lost over the past couple of months. Think my problem was toes pointing down leading to drag. It's harder to point them back after being run-intensive, so I'm going to work on flexibility of ankle, calf, and plantar fascia; all of which are contrapositive between running and swimming.

2) Finally made the effort to fly-kick off the wall. Well worth it.

That's great to hear. Coincidentally I tried that as well, started getting a cramp in the arch of my foot though, so gave up trying so hard. I guess it couldn't do me any harm to work in the same things as you.

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

@ Zico

I did two things tonight as a direct result of this thread:

1) pointed my toes right back, and used the feet as flippers for balance. Eureka. I just found back all the time I had lost over the past couple of months. Think my problem was toes pointing down leading to drag. It's harder to point them back after being run-intensive, so I'm going to work on flexibility of ankle, calf, and plantar fascia; all of which are contrapositive between running and swimming.

2) Finally made the effort to fly-kick off the wall. Well worth it.

I think you are over thinking and more importantly making very very incorrect assumptions. Effectibely over thinking and incorrectly thinking.

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

I think you are over thinking and more importantly making very very incorrect assumptions. Effectibely over thinking and incorrectly thinking.

Yeah, I could well be. Worth bashing it out here- incorrectly thinking how so?

peter kern

i think what tunny is saying is that you see everything from a swimming perspective forgetting the run aspect and also that triathlon is not really triathlon . while its easy to lose a tri in the swim its hard to win a tri there.
and if something makes you 20 sec faster in the water and 1 min slower for the run it might make you happy for the swim but brings to to the finish line slower.

coincidentaly tunny thats why i aslo think its not a bad thing to be faster with a pb swiming as often a good kick is good indication for flexible ankles which is not that desirable for running
so what in a way is a must for a good swimmer, can be heaven and hell for a triathlete and one has to find the right balance.
that makes the brownlees and gomes so special they are bomb proof first pack swimmer top cyclists and top runners

Kurt Godel

peter kern wrote: »

i think what tunny is saying is that you see everything from a swimming perspective forgetting the run aspect and also that triathlon is not really triathlon . while its easy to lose a tri in the swim its hard to win a tri there.
and if something makes you 20 sec faster in the water and 1 min slower for the run it might make you happy for the swim but brings to to the finish line slower.

Gun to tape is what matters Peter, I mentioned this just a few posts back. Recent training has seen me take perhaps 3 mins off both bike and run for sprint, maybe a minute added on for the swim. I'm more than happy with those sums; however I'd also like that minute back.

peter kern

forget about that minute and make sure you run 2 min faster ;-)
you are not losing your race in the swim .
and rember this 1 min in the pool is more like 30 sec in the race ...

Kurt Godel

I don't understand what either of you are saying. I know you are both more qualified to analyse training than I am, but stuff you say shouldn't be accepted without an explanation.

Tunney, pointing the toes seems to help (a lot), and its something I had been neglecting as the run volume increased over the past 8 weeks, and it became more effort to point correctly in the water. Common enough, I would have thought, and easily remedied with greater flexibility. In any case it seems to make me go faster.

Peter, you seem to be saying I shouldn't spend any more focus on improving my swimming. Odd advice for a swim thread! Getting more streamline through changing aspects of technique is surely worth it for anyone at any level, and IMO probably the best bang for your training buck to be had in the water.

MojoMaker

Not at the expense of your running I think Peter is saying. By all means increase ankle flexibility but watch out if it adds the same amount of time on the run leg as it takes off the swim (hard to truly measure I know).

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I don't understand what either of you are saying. I know you are both more qualified to analyse training than I am, but stuff you say shouldn't be accepted without an explanation.

Tunney, pointing the toes seems to help (a lot), and its something I had been neglecting as the run volume increased over the past 8 weeks, and it became more effort to point correctly in the water. Common enough, I would have thought, and easily remedied with greater flexibility. In any case it seems to make me go faster.

Peter, you seem to be saying I shouldn't spend any more focus on improving my swimming. Odd advice for a swim thread! Getting more streamline through changing aspects of technique is surely worth it for anyone at any level, and IMO probably the best bang for your training buck to be had in the water.

As a student of mathematics I'd have thought emetics evidence would be important to you. There as been no quantification of the reduction in swim performance, only a vague feeling. On the eureka set. One 200m was faster than recent ones. The rest the same as others.

Even if there were "deciding to be more flexible" isnt going to make it so.

Furthermore the increased drag from a less flexible ankle and any decrease in propulsion isn't something I'd lose too much sleep on even if it did.


Finally Peters points. You have much much more time to gain on the bike and run which are no where the same level as your swim.

Train your weaknesses, race your strengths. You tend to just focus on swimming.

People do tend to do what they enjoy more. And people tend to enjoy what they are good at.

tunney

Finally for me the gold, or at least silver, standard in tri swimming is not 50m, 100m or 200m times but 400m. 50s and 100s are at best misleading.

< 5:20 a good tri swimmer
< 6:00 a reasonable tri swimmer
< 7:00 okay
< 8:00 beginner
> 8:00 Dublin 70.30

You and I will never hang with Tango and Kerns in the water - much more chance of doing damage on bike and run.

ToTriOrNot

tunney wrote: »

> 8:00 Dublin 70.30

:D:D:D

You like to be mean, Mr. Tunney!!!

Kurt Godel

Cheers, I understand better your post now.

Lots of low-hanging fruit with regards to bike, and even more so run, and I'm choosing to guild the swimming lily; I think thats what you're both saying.

Agree that next weeks 400TT will be a much better test. I've been fighting the water recently, using upper body power to make any fast sets. Any swim gains from here will come through efficiency rather than strength or volume- getting streamline. I appreciate there is more to gain by spending time training on run and bike (which is being done), but positive technique changes come at a low price.

The 400 will tell if its a positive change.

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Finally for me the gold, or at least silver, standard in tri swimming is not 50m, 100m or 200m times but 400m. 50s and 100s are at best misleading.

< 5:20 a good tri swimmer
< 6:00 a reasonable tri swimmer
< 7:00 okay
< 8:00 beginner
> 8:00 Dublin 70.30

You and I will never hang with Tango and Kerns in the water - much more chance of doing damage on bike and run.

ToTriOrNot wrote: »

:D:D:D

You like to be mean, Mr. Tunney!!!

Darn I shouldn't have passed up on entering!! :rolleyes:

zico10

Peter has already made this public, so I'm sure he won't mind. I think it might be worthwhile sharing this link here;
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87134492&postcount=1

In it he's advocating most people should swim more, which makes sense for me. I guess you're the exception to this KG, in that you are already a proficient swimmer. All tri training is a balancing act though and I don't think you can totally neglect one discipline to pursue improvements in another.