Swimming for Tri

zico10 · 10-01-2015 1:13pm

And would a completly crap tumble turn be better than no tumble turn at all? Because that's what I'd be doing.

Kurt Godel · 10-01-2015 1:32pm

zico10 wrote: »

And would a completly crap tumble turn be better than no tumble turn at all? Because that's what I'd be doing.

I'd say so- although touch turning with a defined turn (exaggerated arm sweep) should improve accuracy too.

In general I don't find the 910 all that useful for stroke analysis, too much variance. The Garmin Swim I found more accurate, but still outside what you'd expect to be useful.

mossym · 10-01-2015 6:24pm

zico10 wrote: »

And would a completly crap tumble turn be better than no tumble turn at all? Because that's what I'd be doing.

if you want your 100 splits, hit the lap button on the wall on each 100, perfect timing analysis then

BTH · 10-01-2015 7:42pm

mossym wrote: »

if you want your 100 splits, hit the lap button on the wall on each 100, perfect timing analysis then

And very slow turns. Are you swimming 100s/400s or just lots of 25s??

mossym · 10-01-2015 7:49pm

BTH wrote: »

And very slow turns. Are you swimming 100s/400s or just lots of 25s??

you only need to do it for the 100's you're interested in. most people would be pretty consistent, so doing a 400 and pressing once at the end of the 400 and dividing by would be relatively accurate. if you really want to know your 100 time, the cost of a button press every 2/3 lengths may be worth it.

i always found the pace the 910 calculated as off, but the time it measured for a length to be pretty accurate, so then you could figure out the time for the 100, without needing to hit the lap button. it just means calculating from the web interface rather than relying on the watch

but if you really wanted to know from the watch, the button will do it, at the cost of slower turns as you said. but sure what do us racing tri's care about turns?

zico10 · 10-01-2015 7:56pm

mossym wrote: »

if you want your 100 splits, hit the lap button on the wall on each 100, perfect timing analysis then

I don't really need to know, certainly didn't need to know for what I was doing today, I was just curious is all.

mossym · 10-01-2015 7:58pm

zico10 wrote: »

I don't really need to know, certainly didn't need to know for what I was doing today, I was just curious is all.

have a look at garmin connect, and pick out the lengths that make up the 100's you were curious about, see if the lengths added together give the same number as the pace.With the swimming you are doing no way have you that much variation on consecutive 100's unless you are experimenting with something

Kurt Godel · 10-01-2015 8:07pm

I've given up on analyzing most lap data from 910 pool swims. Far too much variance, often mistakes your stroke, and its prone to dropping lengths. Even timing 100's (start/stop button) is limited as it takes a second to compose at the end and hit the button, when swimming fast to the wall. Pool clock is much better. The Garmin is useful for counting distance for longer sets though, my maths goes to pieces on the pool.

zico10 · 10-01-2015 8:30pm

mossym wrote: »

have a look at garmin connect, and pick out the lengths that make up the 100's you were curious about, see if the lengths added together give the same number as the pace.With the swimming you are doing no way have you that much variation on consecutive 100's unless you are experimenting with something

I wasn't curious about the pace I was holding for any of the lengths. I knew there hadn't been such variation in my paces and I was curious why the Garmin was recording such variations. KG's original reply explained this and I was no longer curious. I appreciate your responses, but I seldom analyse my training to the extent you're suggesting. It's good to know the watch's shortcomings if I ever did want accurate paces in future though.

Bambaata · 11-01-2015 12:46pm

Ill normally just take a quick peak at the half way point in a 200 or 400 so i can check if theres a drop-off in the 2nd half

tunney · 11-01-2015 1:18pm

Never had any issues with 910 swimming.

What you can do is set up time alerts. In a 25 and want to swim 1:26 power hundred. Alert every 22 seconds. Should beep on every turn.

BTH · 11-01-2015 1:32pm

tunney wrote: »

Never had any issues with 910 swimming.

What you can do is set up time alerts. In a 25 and want to swim 1:26 power hundred. Alert every 22 seconds. Should beep on every turn.

We all wanna swim 1:26 per hundred, if only it was that easy.

mossym · 11-01-2015 3:22pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

The accelerometer reads a break in pattern as being a turn- touch turns may not read as being very distinct from your stroke, so a swim length may include a glide from the wall as being part of the preceeding length. Tumble turn for greater accuracy, the accelerometer will read this as your turn.

i don't think this is actually the case. from my understanding a lap isn't triggered by a break in pattern. it's triggered by an acceleration different to a normal stroke, in other words the push off the wall, which is faster than you can swing your arm. touch turns are fine if you get a decent push.

stopping in the middle of the lane and going again would be a break in pattern, but wouldn't trigger a lap. the exaggerated arm swing suggested would then also not help trigger a lap. a decent push off the wall would

zico10 · 14-01-2015 7:24pm

@Kurt Godel

The best drill I have found to accomplish this is to incorporate the dolphin kick with freestyle or backstroke. The trick is to swim with a one kick to one pull ratio. By having to keep up with the legs with this drill, the swimmer will get into a much faster stroke rate than he or she customarily uses. Once they get accustomed to the stroke rate they can then switch back to a flutter kick without slowing the arm rate down. Michael Klim of Australia actually converted to dolphin kick with his freestyle in the last 10 meters or so of his world‐record 100 m. leadoff in the 4 x 100 freestyle relay in the Sydney Olympics. The purpose was to keep up his stroke rate at a time when it would normally slow in the race. In other words, instead of getting on the off‐ramp at the end of the race, the dolphin kick kept him on the freeway.

FUNDAMENTALS OF FAST SWIMMING

After reading this paragraph from the link you provided in the 'Swimming for Tri Beginners' thread, I tried dolphin kicking towards the end of some fast 100s I was doing. I was dolphin kicking for a lot closer to 5m than 10m, (and to someone standing poolside, it might not have looked like a dolphin kick) but be that as it may, it did force me to increase my stroke rate and it felt like I swam faster. Have you ever tried this yourself? Or can you ever see it being useful in training? Or more importantly a race?

Kurt Godel · 14-01-2015 8:02pm

zico10 wrote: »

@Kurt Godel

FUNDAMENTALS OF FAST SWIMMING

After reading this paragraph from the link you provided in the 'Swimming for Tri Beginners' thread, I tried dolphin kicking towards the end of some fast 100s I was doing. I was dolphin kicking for a lot closer to 5m than 10m, (and to someone standing poolside, it might not have looked like a dolphin kick) but be that as it may, it did force me to increase my stroke rate and it felt like I swam faster. Have you ever tried this yourself? Or can you ever see it being useful in training? Or more importantly a race?

Never tried dolphin kicking (outside of fly) anywhere except a couple of dolphin kicks off a tumble turn, even then I don't do it right. I sometimes watch the Asgard sharks dolphin kick into a turn; seems to speed them up. Must try your move next time.

Do you swim fly at all? It's a good stroke to give you a whole new appreciation of moving through the water, and how powerful a kick can be (dolphin or otherwise). Don't know that it would be much use in a restrictive wetsuit though- but thats just a hunch.

zico10 · 14-01-2015 8:27pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Never tried dolphin kicking (outside of fly) anywhere except a couple of dolphin kicks off a tumble turn, even then I don't do it right. I sometimes watch the Asgard sharks dolphin kick into a turn; seems to speed them up. Must try your move next time.

Do you swim fly at all? It's a good stroke to give you a whole new appreciation of moving through the water, and how powerful a kick can be (dolphin or otherwise). Don't know that it would be much use in a restrictive wetsuit though- but thats just a hunch.

I'm definitely not dolphin kicking right either. Saw a member of the elite squad do length after length of it in the NAC, and it made me feel like giving up swimming. But whatever I was doing at the end of the 100s, did make me increase my already incredibly slow stroke rate. I was looking for underwater clips of Michael Klim in that relay, but couldn't find anything.

I'm barely coordinated enough to manage front crawl, so I don't swim butterfly. I don't see any use for it a tri, so like tumble turning, it's not a priority and I don't think I need to work on it.

Kurt Godel · 14-01-2015 8:34pm

zico10 wrote: »

I'm barely coordinated enough to manage front crawl, so I don't swim butterfly. I don't see any use for it a tri, so like tumble turning, it's not a priority and I don't think I need to work on it.

To be honest I don't think you need to work on dolphin kicks at all.

Worth thinking about why your stoke rate picked up when dolphin kicking though. Do your legs sink when flutter kicking? Are your toes pointed back, reducing drag?

(Mind you I've been overthinking my swimming in the past while. Sometimes JKS is the best advice)

zico10 · 14-01-2015 8:54pm

Kurt Godel wrote: »

To be honest I don't think you need to work on dolphin kicks at all.

Worth thinking about why your stoke rate picked up when dolphin kicking though. Do your legs sink when flutter kicking? Are your toes pointed back, reducing drag?

Yes to the first question, I'm sure they do. I generally swim faster with a pull buoy, so doesn't that mean my kick is not as good as it could be.

No to the second question. I'm not the most flexible person naturally, and all the running I do no doubt makes matters worse.

Kurt Godel · 14-01-2015 9:13pm

zico10 wrote: »

Yes to the first question, I'm sure they do. I generally swim faster with a pull buoy, so doesn't that mean my kick is not as good as it could be.

No to the second question. I'm not the most flexible person naturally, and all the running I do no doubt makes matters worse.

Sometimes this forum can be useful as a sounding board. There's no doubt that toes pointing downwards will cause a lot of drag and slow you down. And its quite true too that a lot of running will hinder this ability even further (tendons around the ankles and calf flex in completely different ways for running and swimming). Think I just got a light bulb moment- need to look up specific stretches for increased flexibility in this area.

You might want to consider any hill running you have planned- even greater opposite plantar flexion involved in running up hills.

peter kern · 16-01-2015 12:20pm

zico10 wrote: »

Yes to the first question, I'm sure they do. I generally swim faster with a pull buoy, so doesn't that mean my kick is not as good as it could be.

No to the second question. I'm not the most flexible person naturally, and all the running I do no doubt makes matters worse.

zico its the pb lifting up your hips, making you more streamlined and therefore faster.
your kick is actually not too bad ( ie your legs are high in the water ) the the more weight you are losing around your waist the more your hips are sinking ( id say you are now about 1.5cm lower with your hips than 3 month ago.
The interesting thing is your legs are actually staying high despite they actually get skinnier as well but you defo lost more weight around the waist .
fly kick one arm freestyle stroke drill can work the only thing with you is that you are still very stiff when you swim , it will be a long process (it could go horribly wrong or help but why not trying it )

tunney · 16-01-2015 12:31pm

zico10 wrote: »

I'm definitely not dolphin kicking right either. Saw a member of the elite squad do length after length of it in the NAC, and it made me feel like giving up swimming. But whatever I was doing at the end of the 100s, did make me increase my already incredibly slow stroke rate. I was looking for underwater clips of Michael Klim in that relay, but couldn't find anything.

I'm barely coordinated enough to manage front crawl, so I don't swim butterfly. I don't see any use for it a tri, so like tumble turning, it's not a priority and I don't think I need to work on it.

Always dolphin kick off the wall

tunney · 16-01-2015 12:35pm

peter kern wrote: »

zico its the pb lifting up your hips, making you more streamlined and therefore faster.
your kick is actually not too bad ( ie your legs are high in the water ) the the more weight you are losing around your waist the more your hips are sinking ( id say you are now about 1.5cm lower with your hips than 3 month ago.
The interesting thing is your legs are actually staying high despite they actually get skinnier as well but you defo lost more weight around the waist .
fly kick one arm freestyle stroke drill can work the only thing with you is that you are still very stiff when you swim , it will be a long process (it could go horribly wrong or help but why not trying it )

But its a common misconception that you *should* be faster with a pull buoy. If you are a top end swimmer you should be slower.

Triathletes will be faster with a pull buoy but someone like Tango (any maybe you Peter) will be slower.

RacoonQueen · 16-01-2015 12:43pm

I used to be faster with a pull buoy. Now a good bit slower. Probably more that I propel myself with my kick...definitely nothing to do with my technique being good.

tunney · 16-01-2015 12:47pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I used to be faster with a pull buoy. Now a good bit slower. Probably more that I propel myself with my kick...definitely nothing to do with my technique being good.

Slower with a pull buoy can also be the result of cross over of hands. 12 inches of a broom stick will resolve that!

bryangiggsy · 16-01-2015 12:48pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I used to be faster with a pull buoy. Now a good bit slower. Probably more that I propel myself with my kick...definitely nothing to do with my technique being good.

people still use pull buoys?!..tut tut

http://www.blueseventy.co.uk/blogs/stories/14855285-the-core-short-belongs-in-your-swim-bag

tunney · 16-01-2015 12:51pm

bryangiggsy wrote: »

people still use pull buoys?!..tut tut

http://www.blueseventy.co.uk/blogs/stories/14855285-the-core-short-belongs-in-your-swim-bag

Little bit easier removing a pull buoy than taking off shorts between sets.

10x200 alt sw/p on 1:50 - alot harder if changing shorts

BTH · 16-01-2015 12:55pm

tunney wrote: »

Little bit easier removing a pull buoy than taking off shorts between sets.

10x200 alt sw/p on 1:50 - alot harder if changing shorts

Plus the lifeguard generally kicks me out of the pool when he sees me taking off my shorts

bryangiggsy · 16-01-2015 1:00pm

tunney wrote: »

Little bit easier removing a pull buoy than taking off shorts between sets.

10x200 alt sw/p on 1:50 - alot harder if changing shorts

Defo not a suitable set

BTH wrote: »

Plus the lifeguard generally kicks me out of the pool when he sees me taking off my shorts

I'd kick you out too. Some people would not recover at the thought!

joey100 · 16-01-2015 1:16pm

I've seen people use them shorts as their swim shorts. That's what they will wear for the whole session. Anyone know if they are allowed for use in pool tri's? Out of curiosity more than anything.

bryangiggsy · 16-01-2015 1:21pm

joey100 wrote: »

I've seen people use them shorts as their swim shorts. That's what they will wear for the whole session. Anyone know if they are allowed for use in pool tri's? Out of curiosity more than anything.

Eh that would be a no.

Swimming for Tri

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