Swimming for Tri

Dory Dory

BTH wrote: »

I've learned to tumble. But I'm still quicker when I don't tumble.

Either you're a crap tumbler or you haven't really learned.

pgibbo

BTH wrote: »

I've learned to tumble. But I'm still quicker when I don't tumble. And what's pool times got to do with triathlon racing?

Are you quicker or were you just pushing harder at the end of the session when you stopped tumble turning? Maybe you were conserving energy earlier in the session?

The turns looked decent enough to me but heh, what do I know

RacoonQueen

gerfmurphy wrote: »

I'm looking for video analysis and 121 in dublin / Meath if anyone can recommend anyone

I've been to a swim analysis day in Athlone Sports and Regional - should be another one in November. Underwater from the front, back and side and overwater cameras to watch your swimming. I did it back in April then had very little time in the pool between then and august so probably not very effective for me but would recommend if you're going to view and use your videos. Think Oryx has done same course.

The lads will give analysis of your stroke also and pinpoint what you should work on.

MojoMaker

I've done the same course - last November in fact - with Charlie Naughton and David Warby, both recognised swimmers. Good day out, decent video footage, and a drill pack to work out your own plan or speak to your coach about. You can get details about the next one on the Athlone Tri Club website.

BTH

peter kern wrote: »

in your case not going swimmng seems to have a lot to do with your results ;-)

I'm actually back swimming again and, touch wood, swimming pretty well.

tunney wrote: »

Less recovery with a tumble so more accurate of OW swimming

Yep, hence the attempts to learn to tumble.

Dory Dory wrote: »

Either you're a crap tumbler or you haven't really learned.

I'm a crap tumbler, yes. 2600m into last night's session my tumbles were getting slow and sloppy, so I stopped doing them and started getting a little faster. I'll keep at them though.

pgibbo wrote: »

Are you quicker or were you just pushing harder at the end of the session when you stopped tumble turning? Maybe you were conserving energy earlier in the session?

The turns looked decent enough to me but heh, what do I know

I stopped tumbling when they got sloppy and slow. Was then able to turn quicker without them, but probably was pushing a little harder towards the end too but I'd argue it was easier to push on when not wasting time with craps turns.

At least they looked ok

Kurt Godel

Touch-turns = calf cramps
Tumble-turns = no calf cramps

I tried a lot of calf-cramp remedies before coming to this conclusion.
(Still can't tumble when moving with quick traffic though, need more practice!)

Oryx

I might as well ask this here... how close to the wall should you be when doing a tumble?

joey100

I'm only learning to tumble turn too, I've found you go alot closer to the wall than you think. No real marker for me, just when I think 'that wall is a bit close' is when I try. I'd say it makes me faster, even though they aren't the prettiest tumbles in the world.

griffin100

tunney wrote: »

Less recovery with a tumble so more accurate of OW swimming

In my very first coached sessions the coach used to remove some of the lane ropes and get us to swim in a big loop never touching the pool walls (we had the whole pool booked). Makes you realise how much of a rest touch turning can give you (as does going from a 20m to a 50m pool).

Dory Dory

Oryx wrote: »

I might as well ask this here... how close to the wall should you be when doing a tumble?

Honestly, I never think of this as I've flipped my entire life , but generally speaking, you'll want to start thinking about your tumble when the "T" on the bottom of the pool is directly below you - which (after looking this measurement up) is 2 meters away from the wall. I, myself, have never bothered to break this down to such a degree (nor do I honestly know if I do in fact start my flip when the "T" is directly below me as I don't think about it as I do it)...but....I measured the distance from the tip of my fingers to my eyes, and that is 15 inches. So, as my eyes cross the "T", then that means the wall is approximately 63 inches from my finger tips, or, approximately one body length for me at my height....which seems a reasonable distance considering there will be forward momentum. However, finding that perfect distance to maximize push/thrust/efficiency is a bit of trial and error, but the "T" is a good starting point.

RacoonQueen

When the one person crazy enough to try to get me to tumble turn was 'coaching' me...they told me to turn on the T...but have yee seen the height of me? WAY too far away from the wall...

Dory Dory

RacoonQueen wrote: »

When the one person crazy enough to try to get me to tumble turn was 'coaching' me...they told me to turn on the T...but have yee seen the height of me? WAY too far away from the wall...

And that's exactly why I used the terms: "generally speaking"..."trial and error"...and "good starting point". :)

Mr Tango

RacoonQueen wrote: »

When the one person crazy enough to try to get me to tumble turn was 'coaching' me...they told me to turn on the T...but have yee seen the height of me? WAY too far away from the wall...

Id say once u go over the t one stroke and flip. Some people it is 2 strokes.

Mr Tango

SucCes09 wrote: »

This has probably been brought up before, but I would be interested in hearing more about whether kicking should be "active" for those looking to do IM distance swimming. I typically just drag my feet behind, and only kick when breathing to keep the momentum. Mr Tango was kind enough to share some sets with me, and there was a set in most of the drills that was focused on the kick aspect.

I would always advocate a small kick set as part of the session.

Found nealry all triathletes dont.

Any views???

I think it helps for body position and efficiency in the water.

Kurt Godel

Mr Tango wrote: »

I would always advocate a small kick set as part of the session.

Found nealry all triathletes dont.

Any views???

I think it helps for body position and efficiency in the water.

I've started doing this over the past while- do the warmup, then something like 10*(25kick, 25swim/drill, 10sec rest), then main set. It helps elevate the heart rate which feeds nicely into the main set. Beyond that, there are great long term benefits like you mention above. Kick in the latter part of a Tri swim is a great weapon.

Oryx

I tried flipping at the t today (god that sounds rude) and missed the wall completely. I think I lack the forward momentum certain other fish have! I need to be much closer to the wall.

RacoonQueen

Oryx wrote: »

I tried flipping at the t today (god that sounds rude) and missed the wall completely. I think I lack the forward momentum certain other fish have! I need to be much closer to the wall.

That's what happens to me. End up trying to push off water. It's far too much co-ordination for me.

Kurt Godel

Oryx wrote: »

I tried flipping at the t today (god that sounds rude) and missed the wall completely. I think I lack the forward momentum certain other fish have! I need to be much closer to the wall.

You need to be closer to the wall than you think, IMO. I watched the club kids do their turns and saw they turned much closer than the T; copied this myself and got better turns. Turn when you could almost touch the wall with your outstretched arm.

Also, forward momentum is important, you'll turn better when travelling faster. Speed up before the turn by increasing your stroke/kick, or by doing a dolphin kick before the turn.

Oryx

When I was shown ages ago the turn started quite close. And my kid who turns really well told me to flip really close to the wall. As for momentum, I know it helps but in my case I have to fight the feeling that I'll end up pasted against the wall.

peter kern

Mr Tango wrote: »

I would always advocate a small kick set as part of the session.

Found nealry all triathletes dont.

Any views???

I think it helps for body position and efficiency in the water.

certainly true

and at the end of the day kicking even in triathlon can be very important at the start or around buoys or get the blood flowing at the end of the swim.

some coaches would advocate that kicking isa good way to flash out the legs after a hard trainig session the day before .

gernerally I think overall we can say that kiccking in pool swimming is more important than for openwater swimming and even more important than for wetsuit swimming .

I think to determine for the individual if it is effective or not so effective one needs to consider what stroke one swims. ie if it is total immersion you need to be able to kick and to kick sets if you swim more like swim smooth ( to use the 2 biggest marketing brands in swimming) than you need less kicking once you are able to get your legs floating .


essentially overall swiming is about to start stop as little as possible during the stroke and you have 6 ways to work on it
-faster arm turn over or more kick,
-holding the water better,
-geting more streamlined
-get fitter
-or use toys like a wetsuit etc
in reality its a mix of the 6main points )
so there is not just one way of gettinga better swimmer
( i happen to think for TRI swiming the kick is the least important of the 6 if we can work on the other 5 aspects especially since in a wetsuit the kick becomes less effective but nobody can deny that its not an important part and there is parts of a race where i kick for my live)

something a good coach told one of my clientes was do whatever you like,( question was why do you like cycling answer because i don thave to think about it so now most swiming is done that athelte has to think as little as possible) if you enjoy it you are going to get better. and the truth is the athlete is now enyojing swimming for the first time and this is the most important step of all of them . you wont get better if you dodnt enjoy it ( unless you have a real talent for it) for for most swimming is tough to learn so you better have a good time .

to translte this inot the tuble turn question
if BTH does feel better without tumble turning why would we change it since its not a game changer. what is more important is him getting into the pool ( am glad that sseems to be the case) and this is a game changer. at the same time for somebody else to learn to tumble turn can be very satisfacory and challenge and i can see no negaive effect whatsoever to be able to tumble turn. the positve thing is you realy learn what you can do with streamlining yourself.

SucCes09

I was looking around the web, and came across the http://www.swimsmooth.com/kick.html link. It seems to line up with the advise on this thread - the kick is not done for power (for triathlon distance races) but either a drill to improve fitness, or <more importantly> to improve the stroke efficiency.

griffin100

Mr Tango wrote: »

I would always advocate a small kick set as part of the session.

Found nealry all triathletes dont.

Any views???

I think it helps for body position and efficiency in the water.

I never did kick sets until I did sessions with Mr Tango. It took a while to get a good kick, i.e. one that gave any sort of forward propulsion, but a proper kick gave me a better body position which allowed me to finally start bilateral breathing which improved my swimming no end.

shotgunmcos

All swim clubs and HP swim squads do kick sets almost every session so clearly its an important part of swim training.

However hands up who knows exactly what they are intended for? Of course Tango, interested and PK can chip in as they are swim coaches. But what does your kick set do for you?

Fins vs no fins? With fins a relaxed flutter sends you flying up and down the lane. Take them off and I personally grind to an almost stop. Yet a shark once commented that I had a good kick while drafting me for a bit.

What is the real benefit of using fins? I find after a set of say 10x50m kick with a board and fins, I fly the next few lengths I swim. I see folk swimming sets with them. Are they kidding themselves?

mossym

shotgunmcos wrote: »

What is the real benefit of using fins? I find after a set of say 10x50m kick with a board and fins, I fly the next few lengths I swim. I see folk swimming sets with them. Are they kidding themselves?

i find the same after a set of front scull while kicking with no fins. when i switch back to a normal stroke, i can feel the push i am getting off my kick.


what does my kick set do for me? practise getting my kick cadence up for one. i 'm with you on this one mike, if i do my kick drills with no fins i'm going nowhere. for now though i've gone from no kick at all(and i mean none, legs just dragged) to a regular kick now. if i can just use the kick to keep me higher and more streamlined in the water i'll be happy.

RacoonQueen

We were once given 1500m kick to do at a swim session. 1500m not really sure what the rationale behind that was, other than to cause intense pain.

And kick sets without no fins and no board

SucCes09

Would it be true to say that the kick will only have a significant impact on body position if the core is strong enough to support the legs and upper body?

RacoonQueen

Any thoughts on the pull buoy article that is floating around?

http://trisutto.com/the-pull-buoy-debate-2/

I used it a good bit probably about two years ago but never use my PB anymore. I'm no longer faster with it than I am without on last check so maybe thats why I stopped!

MojoMaker

I used to be faster with the pb than without, but was heading in the wrong direction by using it a lot. I am now much faster without the pb by training the kick better but I still find longer sets are easier with the extra buoyancy and as the article says it's the closest thing you can do in the pool to mimic wetsuit swimming conditions and as such will give significant aid to some swimmers and less to others.

The main benefit I derived from the pb was the lengthening of my stroke and the correct catch and pull and learning how to make that cycle as efficient as possible while covering the longest distance. The main downside I found was my kick dropped off and I struggled to maintain body position as my cadence dropped.

Absolutely no debate about the strength benefits of pb work though - I saw huge gains in just 3 months on a strict pb + paddles diet, gains that have now stayed by integrating back in a reasonable kick.

zico10

I recently got a Garmin 910xt and when I use it in the pool, the pace for my lengths is all over the place. For instance when I swam 800 today, the Garmin gave me the following paces for each length;

1) 1.41/100m, 2) 1.58/100m, 3) 1.50/100m, 4) 1.56/100m, 5) 1.26/100m, 6) 2.20/100m, 7) 1.49/100m, 8) 1.53/100m, 9) 1.47/100m, 10) 1.57/100m, 11) 1.48/100m, 12) 1.52/100m, 13)) 1.49/100m, 14) 1.52/100m, 15) 1.50/100m, 16) 1.49/100m.

The total time was 14.55 with an overall average pace of 1.51, which minus time spent turning at the wall, for my actual moving time is probably about right. The paces for the individual lengths clearly aren't though. Why does this happen? And can I read anything into any of them?

Kurt Godel

zico10 wrote: »

I recently got a Garmin 910xt and when I use it in the pool, the pace for my lengths is all over the place. For instance when I swam 800 today, the Garmin gave me the following paces for each length;

1) 1.41/100m, 2) 1.58/100m, 3) 1.50/100m, 4) 1.56/100m, 5) 1.26/100m, 6) 2.20/100m, 7) 1.49/100m, 8) 1.53/100m, 9) 1.47/100m, 10) 1.57/100m, 11) 1.48/100m, 12) 1.52/100m, 13)) 1.49/100m, 14) 1.52/100m, 15) 1.50/100m, 16) 1.49/100m.

The total time was 14.55 with an overall average pace of 1.51, which minus time spent turning at the wall, for my actual moving time is probably about right. The paces for the individual lengths clearly aren't though. Why does this happen? And can I read anything into any of them?

The accelerometer reads a break in pattern as being a turn- touch turns may not read as being very distinct from your stroke, so a swim length may include a glide from the wall as being part of the preceeding length. Tumble turn for greater accuracy, the accelerometer will read this as your turn.