We Really Don't Have To Do This Anymore...

fr336

bnt wrote: »

I think a good start would be some way of increasing everyone's IQ by 30 points. Perhaps then we might see some genuine agreement on the right way forward, and the self-discipline to make it happen.

Any system that might involve forcing people to "do the right thing" is doomed from the get-go. As numerous examples from history have demonstrated, you end up with a ruling class who have the "solutions", which they proceed to impose on everyone else, by force if necessary.

I think the issue is that the human masses' natural state is to be herded :pac:

diomed

Wurly wrote: »

Here are a few examples of this:
- distribution of wealth to keep the poor powerless and the elite powerful

33% inheritance tax and 33% capital gains tax says distribution of wealth is from the rich to the poor, which keeps the poor powerful, and the elite powerless.

Did you see Russell Brand's latest television appearance today? He gatecrashed the Sam Allerdyce interview and kissed him after West Ham beat Manchester City 2-1. Now that is the sort of social rights activist I want.

Karl Stein

ScumLord wrote: »

I think the notion that there's an elite forcing all these things on the poor common everyday citizen is a load of codswallop.

Read up on the latest 'trade' agreement that they're working on.

Dean Baker of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in the US observed that with conventional trade barriers between the US and the EU already low, the deal would focus on non-conventional barriers such as freeing up regulations regarding fracking, GMOs and finance and tightening laws on copyright.

en.wikipedia.org

People (the elite if you want to call them that) do get together, meet in rooms, plan things like wars, overthrowing governments, 'trade' deals etc. To imagine they don't is even more absurd than imagining they control every facet of life like a conspiracy theorist might.

Bongalongherb

Rolls a bifter and philosophises on my new thinking strategy.

Wurly

diomed wrote: »

Did you see Russell Brand's latest television appearance today? He gatecrashed the Sam Allerdyce interview and kissed him after West Ham beat Manchester City 2-1. Now that is the sort of social rights activist I want.

Same here. I prefer free thinking individuals with a sense of humour over politicians in suits talking absolute sh1te any day of the week.

CentimoSal

Four people who pretty much have talked about OP's gripes at great length:

- Alan Watts
- Terrence Mc Kenna
- Michael Tsarion
- Max Igan

Worth listening to - even for an hour each night. They're very much Bodhisattvas - trying to waken us up.

Of course - a personal revolution must take place first before any grand macro revolution takes place. Eat better, read more books, don't take consciousness dulling pharma from the doctor, etc...

renegademaster

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Rolls a bifter and philosophises on my new thinking strategy.

snap

Christy Browne

The point people are missing is that Brand isn't trying to make it out like he is some messiah with all the answers, he realises that he has benefited massively from capitalism and can be accused of being a hypocrite, but that's not the point.

He knows he can't change everything on his own, so he's using his position of well known comedian/entertainer to spread the word. You can say he shouldn't use YouTube, or other big capitalist corporation's products, but that simply isn't realistic. They have to be used so he can spread what he believes in the hope that one day there will be no need to use them any more.

It's making the most of a bad situation, to change the future

Wurly

Christy Browne wrote: »

The point people are missing is that Brand isn't trying to make it out like he is some messiah with all the answers, he realises that he has benefited massively from capitalism and can be accused of being a hypocrite, but that's not the point.

He knows he can't change everything on his own, so he's using his position of well known comedian/entertainer to spread the word. You can say he shouldn't use YouTube, or other big capitalist corporation's products, but that simply isn't realistic. They have to be used so he can spread what he believes and in the hope that one day there'll be no need to use them any more.

It's making the worst of a bad situation, to change the future

I could not have put it better.:)

fr336

Christy Browne wrote: »

The point people are missing is that Brand isn't trying to make it out like he is some messiah with all the answers, he realises that he has benefited massively from capitalism and can be accused of being a hypocrite, but that's not the point.

He knows he can't change everything on his own, so he's using his position of well known comedian/entertainer to spread the word. You can say he shouldn't use YouTube, or other big capitalist corporation's products, but that simply isn't realistic. They have to be used so he can spread what he believes in the hope that one day there will be no need to use them any more.

It's making the worst of a bad situation, to change the future

Kind of reminds me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WvAkhW-XNI

renegademaster

Wurly wrote: »

I could not have put it better.:)

even if ya had typed it using only your right foot

Wurly

To the people voting 'yes' on the poll, are you saying you agree with deforestation, mass pollution of our food and planet, globalisation, current governments???

Because when I talk about being happy with how the world is being run, i'm talking about these issues. I'm talking about people being allowed to spray your food with toxic chemicals. I'm talking about quangos like Irish Water etc set up by a failed political model, i'm talking about mass pollution of our planet which is being allowed to happen.

And you are saying, yes, i'm okay with that??

_Kaiser_

A worthy OP... er OP... but the first problem you have is convincing anyone there's an issue at all.

Also your target audience (AH) isn't exactly the most receptive to things like this - yes AH can surprise us sometimes like that thread about the poor guy whose wife is dying, but in the main this place is a bunch of funnymen trying to outdo each other for the purposes of thankswhoring.

Stuff like TL;DR is an example.. it's half a bloody page and well-spaced yet I'd wager most skimmed at best before jumping to the "witty" responses. I do think the "dumbing down" of western society in general is a serious issue though and this attitude reflects that.

From mindless reality TV shyte that endeavours to give every eejit their 15 minutes, to nonsense like Facebook - it's everywhere! Previously intelligent, articulate people I grew up with reduced to spouting absolute crap in pseudo-code (something 10 years ago we all criticised kids for with "txt spk"). When attention-seeking idiots taking pictures of themselves ("selfies") makes itself into the dictionary and headline news, you know you have a problem.

But again, the larger issue is that most of these people don't care.. about anything really! As long as they have their TV, smartphones and (in Ireland's case) plenty of drink to distract them, stuff like how the country/world is run doesn't factor - it's "someone else's" problem or "nothing I can do about it".

We've let ourselves be convinced that we are there to serve and work for the government, NOT the other way around, and it's down to this complete shirking of any kind of responsibility (personal, social or otherwise)

Think about it - "I was convinced to buy this overpriced shoebox in the middle of nowhere by the bankers/media/friends/government.. it's not MY fault"

Those scum that killed that poor woman on the M7 the other night no doubt came from "broken homes" or had "no opportunities".. it's not THEIR fault!

FF and FG run the country into the ground and cripple most people with indirect debt repayments through increased taxes and cutbacks.. but it's not THEIR fault.. Europe made them do it!

... and so on

Until the ordinary Joe's and Mary's start to realise that YES it IS their fault AND their RESPONSIBILITY to change things, nothing will actually happen though - and as we see here with the IW protests (as the latest example) there's a sizeable portion of the population who fear the upsetting of their little lives and so discredit an resistance as "non-tax paying welfare leeches" or "far left loonies" and so on .. all so THEY don't have to face the idea that maybe their little worlds aren't quite as comfortable as they might like to think.

But I'm not sure how you go about changing that when even here, most posters aren't taking it seriously (and given the average age in AH is 20-30, that's not a hopeful sign!)

Wurly

This is why i'm posting here. I want to see what the opposition is for myself. Who knows? This thread could make a difference to somebody. And if it does, then it's worth it.

Also, I would say, don't tar the age bracket of 20-30 or indeed AH posters with the same brush.

Again the aim isn't to point flaws in one another. it's about trying to stand united.

KomradeBishop

I think that people in general, don't realize just how messed up our current economic system is, and are unaware of how easy it is (economically) to reform it to work better - it doesn't even have to involve ditching capitalism, but in enhancing it instead, to work better.

The real problems standing in the way, are mainly political, as well as social/intellectual, after 30-40 odd years of NeoLiberalism reshaping the way society/government/economies are structured, and probably an additional 80-90 or so years of misinformation, on how economies function.


Long term, the big problem we can't ignore is climate change - this is perpetuated by the economic system we are in, because our economic system depends upon neverending growth to function - which means ever-increasing power generation/consumption, thus pollution/CO2, thus climate change.

This can't be solved without large changes to the economic system - and because these changes will involve returning more economic power to government (as there is no other authoritative way to force the necessary changes, to reduce growth/pollution to a steady-state - and I disagree with others here, without force, people/business won't attempt to do this by themselves, until it is already too late), it means there is huge political opposition to any attempts at avoiding climate change, as it involves taking away power from many powerful private interests.

kumate_champ07

realies wrote: »

That's another that's wrong with us today, no patience .

'TLDR' is because there is an endless supply of content online, if you want people to read it, it needs to be short and to the point, with an option of going into more detail if the interest is there. people dont want to spend a couple of minutes of valuable time reading something that ends up being a waste of their time.

it might contain life changing information but most people wont bother reading it if its too long

_Kaiser_

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

'TLDR' is because there is an endless supply of content online, if you want people to read it, it needs to be short and to the point, with an option of going into more detail if the interest is there. people dont want to spend a couple of minutes of valuable time reading something that ends up being a waste of their time.

it might contain life changing information but most people wont bother reading it if its too long

But yet how many of those people will be sitting watching the X Factor tonight, or the soaps?

Reading a page (on a laptop screen) of paragraphed, well-spaced text on a topic designed to get people thinking - whether you agree with the OP or not - seems like a lot less waste of time than the first example I gave.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Wurly wrote: »

To the people voting 'yes' on the poll, are you saying you agree with deforestation, mass pollution of our food and planet, globalisation, current governments???

Because when I talk about being happy with how the world is being run, i'm talking about these issues. I'm talking about people being allowed to spray your food with toxic chemicals. I'm talking about quangos like Irish Water etc set up by a failed political model, i'm talking about mass pollution of our planet which is being allowed to happen.

And you are saying, yes, i'm okay with that??

Maybe they voted yes because on balance they are happy with life and the world. This planet has always had turmoil. I don't mean I am not worried about climate change (I am an environmentalist after all) but the question is about overall perception and satisfaction.

Why poll if you don't accept the views of others? I'm out of here.

diomed

Wurly wrote: »

To the people voting 'yes' on the poll, are you saying you agree with deforestation, mass pollution of our food and planet, globalisation, current governments???

Because when I talk about being happy with how the world is being run, i'm talking about these issues. I'm talking about people being allowed to spray your food with toxic chemicals. I'm talking about quangos like Irish Water etc set up by a failed political model, i'm talking about mass pollution of our planet which is being allowed to happen.

And you are saying, yes, i'm okay with that??

Wurly wrote: »

quangos like Irish Water

I don't want to go to the well with my wooden bucket I carved from a native forest tree that died of old age.
I've been to a well with a bucket many times.
I've also been to an outside non-flush toilet.
Indoor plumbing is nice.

• deforestation ... I'm sitting at my 200cm x 100cm table, so yes.
• mass pollution of our food and planet ... I ate my evening meal, and I'm still ok so I guess it wasn't polluted.
• globalisation ... the day of the individual producing his own food, clothing, and shelter is long gone.
• current governments ... we get to vote in another government in 2015 if we want.

Yes, I'm okay with that.

Wurly

And that same government will do the same things that the last one has done because the model itself doesn't work.

Will you watch the video so you can see what i'm talking about?

I'm not rubbishing other's views. I'm asking for clarification. I started the poll so I know what voting 'yes' means as per my post and the video I posted. I'm making sure we are all on the same page here.

Wompa1

Wurly wrote: »

Same here. I prefer free thinking individuals with a sense of humour over politicians in suits talking absolute sh1te any day of the week.

Or a sense for where the camera is. A big moment for a man, Sam Allardyce who has had a tough few seasons over the last few years and has pulled off a massive coup in defeating Man City gets interrupted by a self serving a-hole. He could have waited until he was off camera...he picked his moment, he's a turd

Brand was in New York last week doing American media tours. He's full of crap. He said he produced his current book because he felt the answer to the question he was asked last year on TV that made him look like a bumbling @ss was too complicated and long to answer on a measly television interview (What he would propose to change, to improve things)....no, it wasn't that it would take too long to answer...he just didn't have an answer. He paid someone to help him conjure up something that to people who can't think, may have some resemblance to an answer.

Boo Russel Brand, Boo!

Smarter men than him, have tried to drive change and failed.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Wurly wrote: »

And that same government will do the same things that the last one has done because the model itself doesn't work.

Will you watch the video so you can see what i'm talking about?

I'm not rubbishing other's views. I'm asking for clarification. I started the poll so I know what voting 'yes' means as per my post and the video I posted. I'm making sure we are all on the same page here.

I know in said I wasn't getting dragged in to this but...?

All on the same page as long as it's your page. No thanks. I have seen life without modern convenience. I have seen parents unable to feed their families. I have even seen war. Perhaps it's time you started to appreciate the good things this current world gives us.

Now, I'm definitely out not here.

Wurly

Wompa1 wrote: »

Or a sense for where the camera is. A big moment for a man, Sam Allardyce who has had a tough few seasons over the last few years and has pulled off a massive coup in defeating Man City gets interrupted by a self serving a-hole. He could have waited until he was off camera...he picked his moment, he's a turd

Brand was in New York last week doing American media tours. He's full of crap. He said he produced his current book because he felt the answer to the question he was asked last year on TV that made him look like a bumbling @ss was too complicated and long to answer on a measly television interview (What he would propose to change, to improve things)....no, it wasn't that it would take too long to answer...he just didn't have an answer. He paid someone to help him conjure up something that to people who can't think, may have some resemblance to an answer.

Boo Russel Brand, Boo!

Smarter men than him, have tried to drive change and failed.

So what do you propose then? I'm more looking for answers on this thread, rather than slating individuals.

The Backwards Man

Anyone else have a mental image of Rupert Murdoch, Bill Gates, QEII, Paris Hilton, a Russian oligarch and an Indian steel magnate or two, and that Mexican buck that sells the mobile phones, in an underground lair somewhere taking turns at stroking a pussy?

Wompa1

Wurly wrote: »

So what do you propose then? I'm more looking for answers on this thread, rather than slating individuals.

My reply was to a reply of yours defending that tit. I don't tend to go around claiming that I have all the answers...

If you want a real revolution, I would guess there would have to be a violent coup of every developed country in the world, at the same time. People world wide we need to somehow co-ordinate their efforts whilst all the while not using traditional methods of communication.

It's not jus the US and NSA that eavesdrops on peoples communications. If the banks catch wind of what's going on, they could shift around and hide a lot of money...there would need to be a way to seizes all of each banks assets...

There would be massive disruption to all services. Thousands and possibly millions of people would die in the efforts.

There ya go, that's my guess. From what I understand. At least before he released his book, Brand was calling attention to the many revolutions and uprisings in the history of mankind. He romanticized them for their outcomes whilst playing down and sometimes ignoring the carnage and chaos caused to human life.

I'm just like Russell Brand, I can pluck this nonsense out of my arse. Only, I'm not going to make money from it.

Karl Stein

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA

One eyed Jack

Wurly wrote: »

In fact, I think it's genius. We are using a service by a corporation, not to dumb ourselves down, but to educate ourselves. We are using this service, not post cute pictures of animals on the web but to actually reach out to each other via social networking etc so that the messages spreads at a rapid pace.

By using the services of what you call 'big corporations', you are supporting those big corporations, which make a profit by serving you propaganda in the form of advertising, and can control exactly what you see, hear, view, and indeed read.

Any social media site you can think of, at the end of the day only exists to make a profit off people like you for the people you claim should redistribute the wealth you made for them in the first place.

By looking at things on a grand scale, we get a clear picture as to what' actually happening to our planet and the way it is being run.

So you want people to think globally, and act locally? Or is it act globally and think locally? Your message is ultimately confusing when you try to cover all the bases and you're able to focus your energy on none. You spread yourself too thin when you try to be all things to all people, and then because everyone has their own ideas, nobody gets what they actually want.

I never filled in the blanks when I said 'fair'. I left that up for discussion. 'Fair' to me means that everyone is of equal importance and each person is treated as such. Is that such an outlandish view?

Yes, it IS an outlandish view when everyone can't be of equal importance because everyone doesn't want to contribute equally. Everyone doesn't want to contribute equally because they think they should be entitled to be treated equally despite not having contributed as much to society as others who have contributed much to society.

I never claimed to have all the answers. I'm not sure what this paragraph means, what with all the talk about robes etc. If I had all the answers, would I be willfully trying to generate a discussion?

You claimed the answer to all these issues was to use social media to connect with other people and discuss them. As soon as someone disagrees with your opinion or points out the gaping flaws in your argument (those blanks you haven't filled in), you start taking it personally. I'd hate to see what'd happen to you if you took your opinions to a boardroom - "Why are you all being so mean to me?"

There's the thing - you lack perspective. You want everyone else to step up in the firing line before you, because you haven't got the chops yourself, let alone a cohesive or coherent argument.

Like I said, I appreciate what you're trying to do, I like dreamers, they can be very creative and original when they want to be, but your ideas are neither original nor creative.

Again, where have I said what should be there to make us safe and happy? I'm asking for a discussion so we can see what each 'individual' has to say on the matter. Stop trying to look for stuff in my posts that simply does not exist.

The list of problems in your opening post, you claim if we can resolve all those problems, we'll all be safer and happier? If you're telling me to stop looking for stuff in your posts that doesn't exist, I'll assume from this point on you're referring to solutions.

You've really lost me now. I'm not making myself out to be some jesus like figure, telling you all what to do.

You are, you're telling us we need to have a discussion on all the things on the planet that have been brought to your attention by big corporations though globalisation.

As soon as someone tells you that you're buying into propaganda hook, line and sinker, you turn round and tell them you don't want to argue. That's why your ideas are going to gain no traction - as soon as someone engages with you, you take it personally. That's no way to conduct a discussion. You're trying to change the world here, not arguing over who gets the last slice of Dominos Pizza!

I asked - are you happy with how things are being run?

Truth be told, politicians haven't hands to wipe their collective arses, but better the devil you know and all that. 'People power' doesn't work, because people will never agree among themselves what they want, and if I say I want to hold on to my wealth, and you tell me I must redistribute my wealth to those who haven't worked as hard as I have, well, you don't need to Google my answer to that one!

I then said we should look to each other for discussion.

The system we have now implies choice. But it is merely there to serve the elite.

The system we have now doesn't just imply choice. You have a hell of a lot more choice than you have restraints put upon you, which is why we're able to have a discussion on social media right here, or I can choose to bow out now and concentrate on who's going to win X Factor.

One is as mind numbing as the other so far, I'm undecided at this point. One has to get more interesting quick or I'll make the choice to get dressed and head out for a few drinks to clear my head.

I'm one of those elites you're talking about, so are you, but you need to imagine you have no choice in order to find your place in the world.

A revolution would put the power back into the hands of the people. The details of that are not defined yet. How can we define it if we can't discuss it? So i'm asking that we discuss it.

I really don't see what's so hard to understand.

You might have a point if you grew up in North Korea. Then you'd have no problem defining the details of what revolution was needed. Your problem is you have it too good, and you feel guilty about that, so you need to see all the problems where there are none, and anyone who disagrees with you is an elite.

It's hard to understand when you're asking for a revolution to solve a problem you haven't yet defined.

You're quite angry. And you should be. We've been scared and kept ignorant for many years now. But point your anger at the issue and then do something about it. Why get angry with me for wanting a discussion? I'm not interested in fighting with you, mate. I'd much prefer to discuss the topic in my OP.

I'm not angry at all. Stop projecting. I've said already I'm content with my life, but when I'm not, I'll take action and do something about it rather than blame some unknown and undefinable entity you refer to as 'the elites'. I don't know what age you are, but the only thing that scares me is empty rhetoric and people claiming they're not Jesus, while trying to tell me I have nothing to fear from enlightenment...

Where have I heard that before?

Have you watched the video at all? If not, this discussion is pointless.

So the only way this discussion can happen is if I watch Russell Brand giving it socks and flailing about as he plays up like a petulant child for the cameras?

This discussion is pointless if you can't articulate your opinion in your own words, because I'm sure as hell not wasting my time watching that crap.


Now, back to X Factor...

Saipanne

Why are people listening to that long haired twit, all of a sudden?

Karl Stein

Wompa1 wrote: »

There would be massive disruption to all services. Thousands and possibly millions of people would die in the efforts.

That's not necessarily inevitable. East Germany transformed bloodlessly from socialist dictatorship to something quite different in a matter of days.

Irish Steve

I'm almost afraid to contribute to this thread, having brought the IW thread to a shuddering halt for longer than it's been quiet for all day:o

There's a lot of valid points in the original post, but how to change things, that's harder.

After Hours is possibly not the right place to get real engagement and serious discussion on a Bank Holiday weekend Saturday, but as you rightly say, you have to start somewhere.

You've stirred up a few people already, so clearly they're responding to something, and I think that something is that they are recognising that the inequalities are becoming more marked. The "HAVES", and I'm afraid I have to classify them as being people like the Politicians and State Employee classes are doing very well for themselves when compared to the people that are having to work for very little, and they are people like those on Internships that are not really internships, they are to all intents and purposes slave labour, and getting out of that vicious circle is hard.

Right now is possibly a bad time to be looking at Ireland, the differentiations are becoming more marked at a social level.

Then, there's the issues that are touched on in your original post, the continued abuse of the rain forests, the lack of real engagement in a realistic energy policy, the indifference towards things like social integration in a society that's become massively more diverse in the last 10 years, they're issues that we seem to be seeing very little real leadership on, probably because that political elite don't see them as vote winners, and right now, our leaders seem to be lacking in any real engagement with the rest of us.

As to how to change things, I'm not sure I have any helpful suggestions, I suppose that a good starting point would be to make the "elite" that are running things in the political arena more accountable to the rest of the people, by having a more real democracy, and making them more accountable for their actions would be a helpful starting point, but it's going to take a lot more than just that to change things. I don't know how we get them to take wider world issues on board, or how to get them to start introducing policies that will make for a more integrated society, but we need them.

We also need to be looking more carefully at the wider economic issues, part of why capitalism is running aground is the over emphasis that's come into life on making profits on intangibles, the way that people are being over rewarded for moving virtual money around the place electronically is part of that malaise, they're not really producing or adding real value, in the way that selling a manufactured product does, for economies to work, they have to be adding value to what they produce, and the western world seems to have lost its way in that respect, we seem to be adding value to very little these days.

If I post much more, it won't get read, this is AH after all.

Does that move us on any, I'm not sure. I do know that I'm too old, and too cynical at this stage to be closely involved in trying to bring about the sort of change that's needed, just surviving from day to day is taking more of my energy than I ever thought it was going to,

I should be thinking about retirement and enjoying my grand children, but the disasters of the last few years mean I'm having to spend way too much of my time trying to get people to pay me for work that's been done, if I can even get work in the first place, believing Bertie when he said it would be a "short recession" ended up costing us all our hard worked for reserves.

Maybe one other thought related to that last issue.

We've "invented" way too many "jobs" that are not adding value, in areas like training, and "certification", and "Health and Safety"

If you don't have those pieces of paper, then getting even basic simple work is hard, and people my age didn't get pieces of paper to "prove" we could do the job, we didn't have a job if we couldn't do it, but now, there are legions of people spending way too much time worrying about pieces of paper that in a lot of cases are pretty worthless.

That's costing us money that's not being spent on productive output and making us uncompetitive. That's not doing us any favours.

Not a fix, not even close, but it might make things a bit better