We Really Don't Have To Do This Anymore...

barneyrubble46

As far as I can see, which is as far as my laptop right now, this thread is just to heavy for me, information over load and its bank holiday! time to live a little Iam off to chop down yet another tree, drive my 2 litre petrol jeep to town buy 20 fags and a large bottle of vodka, happy days

losthorizon

kneemos wrote: »

What pisses me off about this climate change bandwagon is that the rain forests continue to be cut down hand over fist.
Where's the "peer reviewed"papers and protests over that?
The biggest environmental disaster of our time gets completely ignored in favour of some airy fairy guesses at what might happen to global temperatures in the further.

They are both linked. You do realise that? The amazon rainforest is a huge carbon sink. They are part of treaty negotiations to do with climate change.

Wurly

Look, regardless of your opinions on Iceland and my opinions, let's look to the issue.

The fact that there was a crisis in the first place.

The fact that there was zero regulation, crazy gambling and then bailouts to billionaires funded by your money and my money.

THIS is the issue. What i'm talking about means looking bigger than small issues. Add all the small up to get one big picture.

Iwasfrozen

Wurly wrote: »

Look, regardless of your opinions on Iceland and my opinions, let's look to the issue.

The fact that there was a crisis in the first place.

The fact that there was zero regulation, crazy gambling and then bailouts to billionaires funded by your money and my money.

THIS is the issue. What i'm talking about means looking bigger than small issues. All then small issues add up to one big picture.

Look I'm not going to defend the socialisation of private debt, that was wrong and it shouldn't happen again but you can't draw from that the whole system needs to change when a simple piece of legislation or change to the constitution will solve that problem.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

barneyrubble46 wrote: »

As far as I can see, which is as far as my laptop right now, this thread is just to heavy for me, information over load and its bank holiday! time to live a little Iam off to chop down yet another tree, drive my 2 litre petrol jeep to town buy 20 fags and a large bottle of vodka, happy days

As long as you are happy doing that then that is all that matters. Life is good as long as you are free to do those things. Keep it up. We need more people like you!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wurly

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Look I'm not going to defend the socialisation of private debt, that was wrong and it shouldn't happen again but you can't draw from that the whole system needs to change when a simple piece of legislation or change to the constitution will solve that problem.

No I didn't say a change to a constitution was the answer. I just used Iceland as one example of a change happening within people.

I'm saying a change of mind within each of us is what needs to change. And we should be talking to each other for ideas on how to evoke that change.

None of this is simple. It doesn't mean it's not possible though.

So in your opinion, how the crisis was handled was wrong. This means that the system is flawed in some way. You also state that it shouldn't happen again. But how do you know it won't? Shouldn't you have a say? Especially when you're taxed to the hilt? Do you see what i'm saying.

This is just not good enough and we deserve better than this. This is what's ruling us and currently none of us have a say over how the powers that be rule our daily lives. I think there is something really wrong with that. And as per the poll, I don't think i'm the only one with that viewpoint.

Too Tough To Die

Man has no free will. Man made climate change is just nature doing its thing.

Wurly

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I see your point and can also see how I have confused you. So allow me to explain.

I'm using the word government when talking about what they could do, in order to draw a parallel between what they do and what they could do.

But my point is they don't do those things. And they never will. if there is not mass profit to be made, they aren't interested.

Because it's not about the welfare of citizens. First and foremost, that is the most important thing. Because when you have a healthy and happy society, you have an empowered society that wants to do better.

To clarify, I do not believe in the current government model. I think it is rotten to the core. All of the things I mentioned above have been allowed to happen under the current regime.

So a change includes the things I want to see happen in the initial post. Basically put: everyone's rights and needs are of equal importance and treated as such.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

So are we down to the financial crisis only now? Iceland as a society has many ills but is the economy all that now matters to suit your arguments? I must confess to now being totally confused as to the tenant of this thread.

Iwasfrozen

Wurly wrote: »

No I didn't say a change to a constitution was the answer. I just used Iceland as one example of a change happening within people.

I'm saying a change of mind within each of us is what needs to change. And we should be talking to each other for ideas on how to evoke that change.

None of this is simple. It doesn't mean it's not possible though.

So in your opinion, how the crisis was handled was wrong. This means that the system is flawed in some way. You also state that it shouldn't happen again. But how do you know it won't? Shouldn't you have a say? Especially when you're taxed to the hilt? Do you see what i'm saying.

This is just not good enough and we deserve better than this. This is what's ruling us and currently none of us have a say over how the powers that be rule our daily lives. I think there is something really wrong with that. And as per the poll, I don't think i'm the only one with that viewpoint.

Your post is biased, it asks are you happy with the way the world is being run. It doesn't mention any particular policies, or example a socialist and a libertarian would both be unhappy with the way the world is run but wouldn't agree on most things.

As for the socialisation of private banking debt, preventing such a thing happening in the future is only a matter of drafting legislation or even changing the constitution to make it impossible for the government to bailout private institution using public money.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Iwasfrozen

Jaelyn Tangy Newsstand wrote: »

So are we down to the financial crisis only now? Iceland as a society has many ills but is the economy all that now matters to suit your arguments? I must confess to now being totally confused as to the tenant of this thread.

At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is economy. Everything else branches out from that.

Wurly

Jaelyn Tangy Newsstand wrote: »

So are we down to the financial crisis only now? Iceland as a society has many ills but is the economy all that now matters to suit your arguments? I must confess to now being totally confused as to the tenant of this thread.

No its one facet of a bigger problem. So that's why i'm saying we need to look bigger, whilst starting small in our own lives.

Donkey Oaty

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Maybe Wurls can describe a piece of legislation that could be introduced to help bring about the kind of society he wants.

Otherwise this is just a monkey throwing its own excrement at a foghorn (as Charlie Brooker said of the Paxman/Brand interview).

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is economy. Everything else branches out from that.

I don't disagree with that but the OP covered anything from climate change to equality. Had it been a specific discussion on the economy, then fair enough but that's not what his poll asked nor his OP asked. Perhaps the drift in the topic is symbolic of how attempts to corrects the failures in society become side tracked.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Wurly wrote: »

No its one facet of a bigger problem. So that's why i'm saying we need to look bigger, whilst starting small in our own lives.

Yes but your own assertion that we should look to Iceland just proves that getting one thing right (economy , although that is debatable) leaves another (human rights) sorely lacking. Their record on a green economy is nothing to write home about either.
Utopia does not, and never will, exist. But I would be interested to see an actual suggestion from yourself as to the solutuon. You keep saying you don't know but want to discuss it, yet won't entertain views not inclined your direction. So enlighten us with an actual solution to all the ills you have previously listed and not just one of them in isolation. Because it's the joined up thinking that's the hard part.

KomradeBishop

Climate change is right at the center of discussing the economy, as it's the structure of the current economic system - depending upon neverending growth - that helps perpetuate the problems causing climate change.

Solving this problem, requires significant changes to the overall economic system, and also significant government intervention - which is why it's a topic that gets avoided and can generate a lot of controversy.

Wurly

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Very good point. This is the problem with labels of all kinds. So i'm curious via discussion can we find a common ground from somewhere. One that focuses on our wellbeing primarily.

As for the socialisation of private banking debt, preventing such a thing happening in the future is only a matter of drafting legislation or even changing the constitution to make it impossible for the government to bailout private institution using public money.

But sure loads of illegal things happened during the crisis. Legislation didn't matter.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Can you clarify what you mean regarding an occupy-style consensus? I'm happy to give my views when i'm sure i've understood you correctly.

I don't have all the answers Permabear. So this is why I want us to talk. I may have some great ideas that may not work and some that could. So i'd like to feel people were perceptive before I start going into the ins and outs. It's very hard when every word you say is being nit picked at by some or the very wording of the post is hostile from the get go. A good example reads below.

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Maybe Wurls can describe a piece of legislation that could be introduced to help bring about the kind of society he wants.

Otherwise this is just a monkey throwing its own excrement at a foghorn (as Charlie Brooker said of the Paxman/Brand interview).

I would like people to use their imagination and their intelligence and ask themselves if they're happy with how their world has been run? And if they're not, i'd like them to be open to discussing fresh thoughts and ideas. And while some may not be perfect, the mere act of having the discussion is the breeding ground for the perfect solutions. I don't know what to do to evoke such massive changes. But surely it's worth talking about? If enough people have the curiosity and the interest, we could generate amazing potential.

We wont ever get there when we focus on nitty gritties and petty insults. All we are doing is acknowledging the issue and then fighting about certain aspects of that problem. All the while, the problem gets bigger.

Shouldn't we ask ourselves what we really want in this life? Weren't the best moments of your life when you felt genuine love for something or someone? Imagine if we created a society where that was the premise? The well being of people. So that everyone had enough for a simple but comfortable, happy life.

So if our focus is there, magic can happen. And just because all of these problems have existed for song, doesn't mean we can't solve them. It's only impossible until we do it.

looking_around

Wurly wrote: »

Increase in flooding in Ireland which is part of the overall global problem

Flooding is due to building in flood planes etc, areas where we really shouldn't have built. Can't blame the governement for that choice, business men built there, and buyers bought, not caring that it was a flood plane and will flood again.
Building by rivers is rarely a good idea.....

This means people work harder for less money, trying to keep a roof over their heads.

Tbf, we are still better off than we were even 40 years ago.

governments that don't serve their people correctly
Our government are all about fear. Fear mongering on every level. Preying on the vulnerable with cuts to special needs assistants for example. The government do nothing to calm our fears. In fact, they deliberately create them to justify myriads of taxation. Do you want people that operate in this fashion governing you?

I don't actually know many people afraid. Frustrated. Having to count pennies, possibly losing their houses and moving back in with parents or other familes, living in smaller places and less materialism, yes.......but fear?

Buying stuff, letting it go off and then throwing it away. I would wager that most of us waste a criminal amount of food.

Yes, I would be apt to agree, what do you want to do? Ban large supermarkets(increasing the price of food and taking away choice.) because people are wasteful?

Ireland's animal protection laws are widely known as shambolic.

Yes, they're pretty bad, but changes have come about, laws now, compared to 10 years ago. Things are changing. Mostly it requires people's views about animals to change. I still know many many people who see animals more as an object than a living thing. People aren't going to change overnight, and you can't make people emphatic. I'm hopeful that with younger generations and slow change in tolerance to harm. This will and is changing

wasting of food while others starve

You post the lamb kebabs I forgot in the back of the car to africa......
I'll also scrape my left over dinner into a box and post that out, while I'm at it. I'm sure they'll appreciate that......................Whether we waste food or not, does not affect the starving. Unless we consciously use OUR money that we spent and wasted on food for them.

I have inadvertently dealt with this above. But the fact is, there is enough food on this earth to adequately feed every person on this planet.

Here's an idea, lets take away choice, and set up food allowances per person, for the entire world. Might be a healthier populace and certainly less waste...but freedom?

But the distribution of food is arseways. Buy buying too much food, we create more consumption. This consumption increases demand which causes the companies to produce more. To keep down the level of production costs, the companies steal from indigenous farmers in developing countries. The very countries that have the food shortage!

It doesn't really work like that.

the dumbing down of a nation via medications, contaminates in food, junk media and broadcasting etc.

conspiracy theory much?

nanny states

What?, it's only a nanny state if it's legislation against what you want? Is it not a nanny state to have all the above you want controlled?

erosion of social interactions
How much time, investment and energy have the government really put into arts and culture in this country?

Why should the governement have to do anything? We're a free people, no one stopping anyone setting a group and a renting a community hall/room and starting up. If people want it, they can do it.

For elderly people in this country, the cut in home help hours reduces the amount of human contact that person may have.

Everyone should be entitle to home help, a medical examination to see that you truly need it. Not all elderly do, and many young people do need it. It should medical exam AND means tested, so everyone should pay a little, be it a fiver or a fifty euro, means test it. Why should anyone get it free. There are many pensioners out there with bloody good pensions.

A huge factor in depression comes from a loss of identity and a loss of connection to other people.

Do you actually KNOW anyone who suffers with a mental illness(it's not just depression please don't only think depression is worth awareness.).
I suffer from depression. I am receiving care from the local "outpatient unit". I see counsellors weekly, I have access to psychiatric nurses if needed..and more.. there is an art group every 2 weeks, and a "social" group every 2 weeks, this is more than there's ever been.
The government IS doing something, they have increased the number of counsellors, there are more nurses than ever who are trained in CBT therapy. They also offer(was started 3 years ago here.) DBT therapy. It is improving, you can't negate the improvements because it was once bad, it's not going to improve overnight.
They haven't cut the mental health budget, despite all the other cuts with the recession, mental health was not hit. Well done, I say!

filtered versions of the news so we can be kept ignorant by the powers that be

Meh, every country does this to some extent or other.

Ever been to an Irish Water protest and then wondered why the reporting on it made a tiny headline in the paper or none at all? There's your answer.
wars

So many comments about Irish Water, is this a water meter thread in disguise?

It keeps us afraid, depressed and apathetic.

I'm not afraid, my depression is for personal reasons, and I'm apathetic to the government, because to be honest, they aren't doing too bad, sure some things I'd like to change, but that's how it is, I'm not starving, I have a roof, I have heat, and medical treatment. It's not so bad.

So if you would not be happy either,

Please don't speak for me.

then we have something in common. We are all of equal intelligence and merit.

lol, intelligence is not equal, I'm sorry, but people are not born the same in appearance, why act like brains are?

We all have something that we are good at. Due to the sheer size of us, we can create massive change.

Probably, but is your change the "right" change?

Life should be all about love.

~sees everyone dressed in super colourful clothing, high off their heads~

One eyed Jack

Anyone up for a spot of hand-waving, Occupy' style?

I'm sorry Wurlzy but your posts have literally become a carbon copy of the habitual protester I met while doing an overnight stint in one of those Occupy tents. I asked him how long had he been doing it - "Ten years"...

Ten fcuking years? At that craic? He was one miserable shìte tbh, and this whole 'simple lifestyle'? It's completely impractical, for numerous reasons, not the least of which being that I dont want to live in a smelly tent surrounded by people eyeballing me suspiciously as if I'm one of 'the elite' just because I was wearing a shirt and tie. I wasn't aware it was a 'dress like you're piss poor' occasion.

It was an eye opener alright, but not in the way you're thinking.

KomradeBishop

Wurly wrote: »

Shouldn't we ask ourselves what we really want in this life? Weren't the best moments of your life when you felt genuine love for something or someone? Imagine if we created a society where that was the premise? The well being of people. So that everyone had enough for a simple but comfortable, happy life.

So if our focus is there, magic can happen. And just because all of these problems have existed for song, doesn't mean we can't solve them. It's only impossible until we do it.

Similar to, but not quite the same, is the concept of a 'leisure economy', where work hours are shortened, thus giving people more free time to live a fulfilling life - and it even helps reduce pollution levels, so is a viable tool for helping tackle climate change as well

All sorts of other policies that can be looked-at/pursued here as well.

Donkey Oaty

On the basis of this thread, I sense the Age of Aquarius is not quite dawning yet.

Wurly

looking_around wrote: »

Flooding is due to building in flood planes etc, areas where we really shouldn't have built. Can't blame the governement for that choice, business men built there, and buyers bought, not caring that it was a flood plane and will flood again.
Building by rivers is rarely a good idea.....

Indeed. I agree with you. However, there has been an increase in erratic weather patterns which contribute to flooding. Some are natural earth cycles. Some are related to our own pollution.

Tbf, we are still better off than we were even 40 years ago. I don't actually know many people afraid. Frustrated. Having to count pennies, possibly losing their houses and moving back in with parents or other familes, living in smaller places and less materialism, yes.......but fear?

All of these things cause people to feel worried. Worry is fearing the worst for the future. So it is actually fear. It's just called something else in this instance.

Yes, I would be apt to agree, what do you want to do? Ban large supermarkets(increasing the price of food and taking away choice.) because people are wasteful? Yes, they're pretty bad, but changes have come about, laws now, compared to 10 years ago.

Encourage people to buy local where possible for foods they can receive here from small business. If we did that first step alone, it could make a huge difference.

Things are changing. Mostly it requires people's views about animals to change. I still know many many people who see animals more as an object than a living thing. People aren't going to change overnight, and you can't make people emphatic. I'm hopeful that with younger generations and slow change in tolerance to harm. This will and is changing

I really hope you're right on this one. Sincerely.

You post the lamb kebabs I forgot in the back of the car to africa......
I'll also scrape my left over dinner into a box and post that out, while I'm at it. I'm sure they'll appreciate that......................Whether we waste food or not, does not affect the starving. Unless we consciously use OUR money that we spent and wasted on food for them. Here's an idea, lets take away choice, and set up food allowances per person, for the entire world. Might be a healthier populace and certainly less waste...but freedom?

Yes our waste does affect the problem. We are creating more of a supply due to our excessive consumption and wasteful attitude towards food.

It doesn't really work like that. conspiracy theory much? What?, it's only a nanny state if it's legislation against what you want? Is it not a nanny state to have all the above you want controlled? Why should the governement have to do anything? We're a free people, no one stopping anyone setting a group and a renting a community hall/room and starting up.

Tjis is exactly what I want people to start thinking about. Changing things at a local level first in each of our communities, without the need for governments.

If people want it, they can do it.

My sentiments exactly.

Everyone should be entitle to home help, a medical examination to see that you truly need it. Not all elderly do, and many young people do need it. It should medical exam AND means tested, so everyone should pay a little, be it a fiver or a fifty euro, means test it. Why should anyone get it free. There are many pensioners out there with bloody good pensions.

You have exposed beautifully another problem with the current system. Inequality in the health care system. So how about a nominal fee for all instead of free for some and huge bills for others?

Do you actually KNOW anyone who suffers with a mental illness(it's not just depression please don't only think depression is worth awareness.).

My father, at one point in his life was diagnosed with 23 different mental disorders. The effects of which, I witnessed on a daily basis for 23 years of my life.

I previously suffered from clinical depression.

I have plenty more examples but I trust the above two suffice.

I suffer from depression. I am receiving care from the local "outpatient unit". I see counsellors weekly, I have access to psychiatric nurses if needed..and more.. there is an art group every 2 weeks, and a "social" group every 2 weeks, this is more than there's ever been.
The government IS doing something, they have increased the number of counsellors, there are more nurses than ever who are trained in CBT therapy. They also offer(was started 3 years ago here.) DBT therapy. It is improving, you can't negate the improvements because it was once bad, it's not going to improve overnight.

I am absolutely thrilled that you are receiving the care you need. When I was depressed, I found the system to be appalling. So it's wonderful to know that people nowadays are getting cared for so well. I truly wish you the best for your recovery.

I also know of some horrific cases on a personal level where people did not receive the care they needed, no matter what the protest. So how come your needs are looked after but my friends needs weren't. Everyone should have the same experience you've had.

They haven't cut the mental health budget, despite all the other cuts with the recession, mental health was not hit. Well done, I say!

Agreed. However many other worthy causes received a hammering.

Meh, every country does this to some extent or other.

Does that make it okay?

So many comments about Irish Water, is this a water meter thread in disguise?

No but i'm referring to it occasionally because it is an emotive subject at the moment. And therefore a good example.

I'm not afraid, my depression is for personal reasons, and I'm apathetic to the government, because to be honest, they aren't doing too bad, sure some things I'd like to change, but that's how it is

Why does it have to be 'how it is'?

I'm not starving, I have a roof, I have heat, and medical treatment. It's not so bad. Please don't speak for me

I didn't speak for you. I said IF you want change. That implies a choice on your part.

.lol, intelligence is not equal, I'm sorry, but people are not born the same in appearance, why act like brains are?

Brains are different. People are different. There are many facets of intelligence. Unfortunately our society is fixated on academic intelligence. Emotional intelligence is just as important. There are many ways to be intelligent.

Probably, but is your change the "right" change? ~sees everyone dressed in super colourful clothing, high off their heads~

My change proposes that everyone has the same rights and makes decisions based on the collective good of all, not just some.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wurly

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Thanks for that link Permabear.

I think it is a very interesting concept. I like it because everyone is classed as equals and each person has a say.

Obviously everything would have to be decided via general consensus. But the problem now is that a lot of the issues I have highlighted have been done without our consent. And that is what I think needs to change.

Are you opposed to the occupy moment? And if so, could I ask why?

ressem

Sorry Wurly, the reason is...
hard problems are hard. Bundle them together and they become insolvable.
Each one has to be broken down, analyzed for how we think it works and checked for correctness, and solutions gradually grown till we find ones that work.

Can I suggest that we're looking for viable inspiration in each area?
And the reason we're so disappointed in politicians is that they promise this (e.g. New Era) but get dissuaded at the first hurdle.

What might be useful for a community + academia to do would be to take these theoretical projects, analyze the bejaysus out of it for flaws and to make the component parts easier to understand, try to run it on a small scale so politicians aren't so scared of it's failure.

Otherwise there is no-one but the corporations offering possibilities.

Corporations hoarding billions. They put that money in the Bahamas banks. They expect the banks to provide a return on deposits.
To whom and where are the Bahamas banks lending the money?

Energy? We're not sure yet what will work. Solar power was marketed far and wide, subsidised for roof installs, but it seems to be more resource hungry than other forms of energy generation.
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531841/why-solar-is-much-more-costly-than-wind-or-hydro/

Food production / distribution / local market distortions.
Does providing cheap external food into a country where the majority of work is agricultural cause poverty and disruption?
The free marketers suggest that you need to give the locals the inspiration and backing to create services that people within and outside their country will trade for.
Those african / indian spammers and callers would carry out less criminal work if the company owner could see a demand for it.

Locally in Ireland, we've hundreds of square kilometers of land growing furze bushes, thousands of people idle, and the ECB trying to push money to 'the right projects' but no inspiration to create a viable plan for a crop or use for it.
Even if a 2,000 km^2 wind farm was placed here there should still be a use for the land beneath.

Flooding, in many cases we allowed infrastructure built by the british to clog up through neglect as our community didn't assign it importance worth paying for. A microcosm of the larger problems your describe.
If we knew the possible risk and price in advance we might be able to propose it as something that we'd be willing to pay towards.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Wurly wrote: »

makes decisions based on the collective good of all, not just some.

You see, that is what most governments have honestly tried to do but there is the rub. Collective good of all is impossible. Someone must gain and someone must lose or somebody somewhere won't be happy with the decision. The notion is pie in the sky. I'm sorry for sounding negative but having lived over 70 years, having been born into a family who had practically nothing and now living a comfortable life with all my needs and more, and having heard all your points raise themselves every 20 years or so while successive parties gave their ideas a lash I know you will never achieve good for all. The majority certainly, but not all. All in all I consider it a more equal and rich society today than n most of my lifetime.

Wurly

Jaelyn Tangy Newsstand wrote: »

You see, that is what most governments have honestly tried to do but there is the rub. Collective good of all is impossible. Someone must gain and someone must lose or somebody somewhere won't be happy with the decision. The notion is pie in the sky. I'm sorry for sounding negative but having lived over 70 years, having been born into a family who had practically nothing and now living a comfortable life with all my needs and more, and having heard all your points raise themselves every 20 years or so while successive parties gave their ideas a lash I know you will never achieve good for all. The majority certainly, but not all. All in all I consider it a more equal and rich society today than n most of my lifetime.

Yes but some people are having massive gains while others are having massive losses. All the while, the planet gets dessimated. So this is not a sustainable model we have here and it looks like change is inevitable for our survival.

looking_around

Wurly wrote: »

Indeed. I agree with you. However, there has been an increase in erratic weather patterns which contribute to flooding. Some are natural earth cycles. Some are related to our own pollution.

There's a bit of debate on that, many scientists believe it's just natural cycle, the earth has gone through dramatic weather changes long before humans.

All of these things cause people to feel worried. Worry is fearing the worst for the future. So it is actually fear. It's just called something else in this instance.

Yes, it;s called worry, use worry. And people aren't really that worried for their well being, just about not having everything as they are used to having it.

Encourage people to buy local where possible for foods they can receive here from small business. If we did that first step alone, it could make a huge difference.

Costs more, other than being out of pocket for the same produce, what do WE gain? local business flourish and maybe employ a couple of other people, while we're still less off?

Yes our waste does affect the problem. We are creating more of a supply due to our excessive consumption and wasteful attitude towards food.

Can't punish people for that, they have the money, they are entile to use their money as they choose to. What we buy isn't taking it from others. People starving would still be starving, just less would be grown and supplied.

You have exposed beautifully another problem with the current system. Inequality in the health care system. So how about a nominal fee for all instead of free for some and huge bills for others?

Why should someone who can't afford it pay the same as someone who can afford it? Why shouldn't people pay depending on their earnings. And I mean depending on net, with mortgage/necessities etc being calculated in and people and gradual increase rather than a cut off point.

My father, at one point in his life was diagnosed with 23 different mental disorders. The effects of which, I witnessed on a daily basis for 23 years of my life.

The changes have come about in the last 5 years. They are making changes that was point. What more do you want them to do? the can't change overnight. And there's no way anyone has "23 mental illness". you might want to check the records on that.

I previously suffered from clinical depression.

So? your point?
I am currently experience the public mental healthcare, my mother suffers from borderline personality disorder, and is also recieving help. Check the thread "lets all laugh at depression" and see just how many people have positive comments about the current mental health facilities. They have come a long way.

I have plenty more examples but I trust the above two suffice.

You just labled who had what, there's no examples or experiences out of, they show nothing at all.

I am absolutely thrilled that you are receiving the care you need. When I was depressed, I found the system to be appalling. So it's wonderful to know that people nowadays are getting cared for so well. I truly wish you the best for your recovery.

I repeat, my point is that it's IMPROVING, and can't change overnight.
When did they seek help, and did they take advantage of psychiatric nurses while on waiting lists? Many are told it'll be a 6 month waiting list, but you have a psychiatric nurse you can see weekly(and even daily in some cases.) and they do not. Not much the country can do in that case.

Agreed. However many other worthy causes received a hammering.

Such as? your idea of worthy cause, may not be mine.

Does that make it okay?

They can only do what they can do, they only have so much money, it doesn't grow on trees.

Why does it have to be 'how it is'?

because, it works.

I didn't speak for you. I said IF you want change. That implies a choice on your part.

multiple times you used the terms "us" "we" "you" , don't.

Brains are different. People are different. There are many facets of intelligence. Unfortunately our society is fixated on academic intelligence. Emotional intelligence is just as important. There are many ways to be intelligent.

So not all intelligence is equal, thanks for confirming my point.

My change proposes that everyone has the same rights and makes decisions based on the collective good of all, not just some.

That's what happens, by majority vote.

Sometimes the collective good, isn't best for some, you're asking people not to be selfish, it's a trait in the majority of people, even unintentionally.