We Really Don't Have To Do This Anymore...

Sunnyisland

Jesus even the mods can't agree were all fecked...

Firefox11

Hmmm....Russell Brand made a fool of himself on Newsnight during the week.

fr336

realies wrote: »

Jesus even the mods can't agree were all fecked...

The elite are turning on each other :cool:

Wurly

humberklog wrote: »

Yes. It does.

To be honest, i'd rather discuss the issue in my OP so if you have nothing of value to add here, then I don't see why you're still posting.

I'm really not interested in arguing with any of you tbh.

Wurly

Firefox11 wrote: »

Hmmm....Russell Brand made a fool of himself on Newsnight during the week.

You reckon? How so?

Personally, I thought he was fantastic. I'm interested to hear your views.

Wabbit Ears

The main post was TLDR but seriously, if you want to be taken seriously dont use Russell brand as your spokesperson. Srsly, the guy is a fcuking idiot and I automatically lose all respect for anybody who gives that cancer on the airwaves any kudos whatsoever.

Tokyo

Does a video titled 'Can We Ditch Capitalism', hosted by a person who has benefited enormously from capitalism not seem a tad.... hypocritical to you??

fr336

mike_ie wrote: »

Does a video titled 'Can We Ditch Capitalism', hosted by a person who has benefited enormously from capitalism not seem a tad.... hypocritical to you??

I never get people's point with this claptrap. So because the one delivering the message is a hypocrite, let's put the topic to bed quietly and quickly and carry on with the status quo? Hmmmmm.

Wurly

mike_ie wrote: »

Does a video titled 'Can We Ditch Capitalism', hosted by a person who has benefited enormously from capitalism not seem a tad.... hypocritical to you??

I get your point. However, haven't we all benefitted from capitalism in one way or another - be it even the products that we consume?

But with the mounting evidence that this is unsustainable, shouldn't we explore something new?

We are all learning. Russell Brand has made mistakes. You've made mistakes. So have I. Does it really matter?

Look beyond all that because we are only human. Look at the message.

And mate, can I ask - are YOU happy with how things are being run? If so, why? And if not, what do you propose? Your input and ideas are important.

the evasion_kid

I've been evading the system for as far as I can for years,working and
Living minimally, human life is too precious to be sold away by the hour for wage labor,then I look at the pack of idiots running this country and the next in line who'll claim they'll sort everything out

Frank Lee Midere

fr336 wrote: »

I never get people's point with this claptrap. So because the one delivering the message is a hypocrite, let's put the topic to bed quietly and quickly and carry on with the status quo? Hmmmmm.

Calling somebody a hypocrite isn't a good argument but Brand has no idea about anything. He's also as false as a two dollar bill. Why can't people point me to the free download?

Wurly

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

The main post was TLDR but seriously, if you want to be taken seriously dont use Russell brand as your spokesperson. Srsly, the guy is a fcuking idiot and I automatically lose all respect for anybody who gives that cancer on the airwaves any kudos whatsoever.

Admittedly, posting something containing Russell Brand was a bit risky. And that's because people fixate on the outlandish stuff he has done in the past.

Regardless of all that, I think the message in this video is of particular importance. It was the eloquence of the way the topic was explained that made me post this particular one.

Can you tell me why you see him as an idiot? I'm not looking to argue, just to gain a better understanding of your view.

Tokyo

fr336 wrote: »

I never get people's point with this claptrap. So because the one delivering the message is a hypocrite, let's put the topic to bed quietly and quickly and carry on with the status quo? Hmmmmm.

I never said that parts of the OP's post didn't have merit, but using someone like Russel Brand as a champion for your argument undermines that argument from the get-go, considering that it stinks of 'do as I say, not as I do'. But well done on extrapolating all of the above from the question I asked.

One eyed Jack

Wurly wrote: »

Ok this really is bigger than you think it is. Big corporations absolutely own and control the world's wealth. The government have no control over this. The government answers to them, not us! There are countless sources of evidence to prove this online. Google it and do your research so that you can broaden your understanding.

So, big corporations own and control the world's wealth, and in order for us to inform ourselves, we have to use the services provided by one of the world's largest and most profitable corporations, and watch Russell Brand on YouTube, also owned by Google...

Hmm, someone clearly hasn't thought this through very well.

Possibly. But the key point here is 'local'. Or 'community'. You know, the thing that is actually being destroyed by globalisation? I'd prefer not to use the word 'government' to describe what the new movement would be called as at this stage, it has a negative connotation attached to it. I think we need a new system and a system by a new name.

It's globalisation that makes us aware of all those other issues you mentioned in your OP (where not once did you mention the word 'community'). You're thinking too much on a grand scale, and expecting everyone else should have to do the work to create the world YOU think is 'fair', by your standards.

A government by any other name...

You want to change the world, and you're struggling at the first hurdle with coming up with a name for your new movement? Why not just call it 'Branding', as it's what you seem to be lacking. Obvious enough I would have thought, and insert Russell Brand as your new Emperor with no robes.

I don't post on after hours very regularly so i'm not up to speed on what each poster believes in. I don't think it matters anyway. We all just want to be safe and happy. The current system doesn't support that.

So you don't engage with your audience regularly, you don't think it matters what the people in audience believe in, and you tell us what we need to do to feel safe and happy. You say the current system doesn't support that, but that's exactly what it does -

- Government doesn't engage with the people who voted for them.

- Government isn't particularly concerned with what it's citizens believe in.

- Government is constantly telling it's citizens what they need to do to be safe and happy (remember that 'nanny state' you referred to in your opening post?)



So, how the hell are you any different to the Government you hope to replace?

The only difference I can see is a bloody name change, and you can't even think up a good name! Try Bing, see if anything becomes obvious to you.

fr336

mike_ie wrote: »

I never said that parts of the OP's post didn't have merit, but using someone like Russel Brand as a champion for your argument undermines that argument from the get-go, considering that it stinks of 'do as I say, not as I do'. But well done on extrapolating all of the above from the question I asked.

How does it undermine it at all? Struggling to get into that extremely limiting mindset I have to say.

Frank Lee Midere

Wurly wrote: »

I get your point. However, haven't we all benefitted from capitalism in one way or another - be it even the products that we consume?

But with the mounting evidence that this is unsustainable, shouldn't we explore something new?

We are all learning. Russell Brand has made mistakes. You've made mistakes. So have I. Does it really matter?

Look beyond all that because we are only human. Look at the message.

And mate, can I ask - are YOU happy with how things are being run? If so, why? And if not, what do you propose? Your input and ideas are important.

I'm not happy with the way they cure cancer at the moment. Chemo doesn't work. Unless I have some proper idea of a replacement though I have no argument. I can't just say "homeopathy" would work because it doesn't. You and Brand are not really suggesting a solution just hand waving.

For instance - and I know I won't get an answer to this - where are you on a mansion tax? On an inheritance tax ? On capital gains tax? On QE.

That's just to begin. There are loads more actual policies which you don't even give the slightest idea of starting to understand. And Brand is a booky wooky class A moron.

fr336

One eyed Jack wrote: »

So, big corporations own and control the world's wealth, and in order for us to inform ourselves, we have to use the services provided by one of the world's largest and most profitable corporations, and watch Russell Brand on YouTube, also owned by Google...

Wow, corporations own our speech and communication now? :eek: Of Course YouTube wasn't even "invented" by Google; they bought it.

Karl Stein

fr336 wrote: »

I never get people's point with this claptrap. So because the one delivering the message is a hypocrite, let's put the topic to bed quietly and quickly and carry on with the status quo? Hmmmmm.

It's called 'poisoning the well' and it is employed by TINA's (there is no alternative) who'd rather not talk about issues in favour of discrediting their author.

fr336

Karl Stein wrote: »

It's called 'poisoning the well' and it is employed by TINA's (there is no alternative) who'd rather not talk about issues in favour of discrediting their author.

Also known as muddying the waters? I'm with you

Sigh..I can understand the rich defending themselves but their followers are hilariously pathetic.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Look, I have seen more governments, lows and highs than you have had hot dinners. No system is ever perfect. Each generation thinks it needs fixing. And they think they can fix it. But take something out here and add something there and something else will go awry. Capitalism may be failing. Communism and true socialism failed. But personally, having made it this far despite all the failings, I am perfectly happy to work with what we have right now. Life is good. I accept most of the shortcomings in general and lose the rag over others but all in all I get on with life, family, friends, community and accepting what I have.
I'd like to see a decent balanced practical remedy for all that's wrong with the country/world but I've waited for Godot for 70 years and don't expect to see him miraculously appear here.

fr336

Jaelyn Tangy Newsstand wrote: »

Look, I have seen more governments, lows and highs than you have had hot dinners. No system is ever perfect. Each generation thinks it needs fixing. And they think they can fix it. But take something out here and add something there and something else will go awry. Capitalism may be failing. Communism and true socialism failed. But personally, having made it this far despite all the failings, I am perfectly happy to work with what we have right now. Life is good. I accept most of the shortcomings in general and lose the rag over others but all in all I get on with life, family, friends, community and accepting what I have.
I'd like to see a decent balanced practical remedy for all that's wrong with the country/world but I've waited for Godot for 70 years and don't expect to see him miraculously appear here.

Do you think equality is turning for the worst more than ever, or things are just magnified with the internet being in play?

ScumLord

Wurly wrote: »

Here are a few examples of this:

- pollution and climate change
- distribution of wealth to keep the poor powerless and the elite powerful
- governments that don't serve their people correctly
- extinction of bees, plants, marine creatures and animals
- wasting of food while others starve
- the dumbing down of a nation via medications, contaminates in food, junk media and broadcasting etc.
- nanny states
- erosion of social interactions
- filtered versions of the news so we can be kept ignorant by the powers that be
- wars

I think the notion that there's an elite forcing all these things on the poor common everyday citizen is a load of codswallop. The fact is most businesses are customer orientated, they give the people what they want, even to the point of making their products worse to meet the consumers demand for cheep. Most governments try to operate as businesses and are aping the private sectors methods for appeasing the consumer.

The only reason the media has been dumb down is because that's how the majority of people want their media, they want sensationalized news that's black and white with immediate speculation rather than in dept analysis. Nobodies forcing people to buy the daily mail and the only reason the daily mail is the way it is, is to meet the demand.

It's the same with everything else, businesses and governments meet demand. The problem for governments is people tend to demand the impossible based on their ignorance of the situation so they're screwed no matter which way they go.

The problem isn't the elite or business or government, it's ill informed, willfully ignorant people with a superiority complex that want to think they live under oppression rather than take a productive part in their community. they'd rather live in a fantasy land of monsters and bad guys than take responsibility for the community they've actively created.

We're our own worst enemy and the only bad thing the elite are doing is letting us wallow in our own self importance.

Wurly

One eyed Jack wrote: »

So, big corporations own and control the world's wealth, and in order for us to inform ourselves, we have to use the services provided by one of the world's largest and most profitable corporations, and watch Russell Brand on YouTube, also owned by Google...

Hmm, someone clearly hasn't thought this through very well.

In fact, I think it's genius. We are using a service by a corporation, not to dumb ourselves down, but to educate ourselves. We are using this service, not post cute pictures of animals on the web but to actually reach out to each other via social networking etc so that the messages spreads at a rapid pace.

It's globalisation that makes us aware of all those other issues you mentioned in your OP (where not once did you mention the word 'community'). Your thinking too much on a grand scale, and expecting everyone else should have to do the work to create the world YOU think is 'fair', by your standards.

By looking at things on a grand scale, we get a clear picture as to what' actually happening to our planet and the way it is being run.

I never filled in the blanks when I said 'fair'. I left that up for discussion. 'Fair' to me means that everyone is of equal importance and each person is treated as such. Is that such an outlandish view?

A government by any other name...

You want to change the world, and you're struggling at the first hurdle with coming up with a name for your new movement? Why not just call it 'Branding', as it's what you seem to be lacking. Obvious enough I would have thought, and insert Russell Brand as your new Emperor with no robes.

I never claimed to have all the answers. I'm not sure what this paragraph means, what with all the talk about robes etc. If I had all the answers, would I be willfully trying to generate a discussion?

So you don't engage with your audience regularly, you don't think it matters what the people in audience believe in, and you tell us what we need to do to feel safe and happy.

Again, where have I said what should be there to make us safe and happy? I'm asking for a discussion so we can see what each 'individual' has to say on the matter. Stop trying to look for stuff in my posts that simply does not exist.

You say the current system doesn't support that, but that's exactly what it does -

- Government doesn't engage with the people who voted for them.

- Government isn't particularly concerned with what it's citizens believe in.

- Government is constantly telling it's citizens what they need to do to be safe and happy (remember that 'nanny state' you referred to in your opening post?)

So, how the hell are you any different to the Government you hope to replace?

You've really lost me now. I'm not making myself out to be some jesus like figure, telling you all what to do.

I asked - are you happy with how things are being run?

I then said we should look to each other for discussion.

The system we have now implies choice. But it is merely there to serve the elite.

A revolution would put the power back into the hands of the people. The details of that are not defined yet. How can we define it if we can't discuss it? So i'm asking that we discuss it.

I really don't see what's so hard to understand.

You're quite angry. And you should be. We've been scared and kept ignorant for many years now. But point your anger at the issue and then do something about it. Why get angry with me for wanting a discussion? I'm not interested in fighting with you, mate. I'd much prefer to discuss the topic in my OP.

The only difference I can see is a bloody name change, and you can't even think up a good name! Try Bing, see if anything becomes obvious to you.

Have you watched the video at all? If not, this discussion is pointless.

renegademaster

realies wrote: »

To long to read.

god help us, you'd swear the post was a flipping thesaurus or something

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Russell Brand on Social issues?

I'm gonna leggit.

are you prepared to counter brands views on social issues?

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Well he wouldn't exactly be the most learned in the field for one.

learned in what field? brand is unable to spot the glaring problems and speak about proben ways in which people can move away from the $hitty system the .01% are trying to say is the only game in town

humberklog wrote: »

Ist proposal would be to stop using Russell Brand political quotes and clips. It gives off too strong a whiff of lazy adolescent revolution from under the duvet about lunchtime on a tuesday.

if you checked you'd find brand shows up and speaks regularly at events, helps out at protests regularly, uses every opportunity to speak about public issues and ways to work round them.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Serious opinion?

OP while I appreciate what you're attempting to do, essentially for me you shot yourself in the foot with the inclusion of far too many things to be concerned about, your use of phrases like 'nanny state', 'wealth redistribution', and for the love of...

Russell Brand? Russell Brand?


But the final nail in the coffin for your efforts, was this little beauty -





I'm quite happy to ignore all propagandised notions, including with all due respect to the effort you went to in your OP, but your propaganda is just as woeful as the imaginary propaganda you speak out against. You just can't see it yourself.

Do we live in a perfect world? No.

Would I like to live in a world created from your idealism? Hell no.

I'm quite content as I am thanks.

jebus wept

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

When people pool their powers we are going to have crap smart phones.

The problems with the modern world is the useful technology driving corporations but corrupt national politicians, low interest rates which cause mis allocation of capital, unregulated casino financial capitalism. Not google, amazon or Apple which provide useful goods and services.

Is Russell brand giving that book away for free? Downloadable PDF somewhere?

so unless a book is given away for nothing it's to be rubbished is it?

Firefox11 wrote: »

Hmmm....Russell Brand made a fool of himself on Newsnight during the week.

did he? i missed that myself, maybe you'd like to point out how he made a fool of himself

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

The main post was TLDR but seriously, if you want to be taken seriously dont use Russell brand as your spokesperson. Srsly, the guy is a fcuking idiot and I automatically lose all respect for anybody who gives that cancer on the airwaves any kudos whatsoever.

so, can you please provide a full list of idiots according to you so we can avoid annoying you somwhere on the net

mike_ie wrote: »

Does a video titled 'Can We Ditch Capitalism', hosted by a person who has benefited enormously from capitalism not seem a tad.... hypocritical to you??

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Calling somebody a hypocrite isn't a good argument but Brand has no idea about anything. He's also as false as a two dollar bill. Why can't people point me to the free download?

brand has lots of ideas about plenty and again are all books sold for cash to be rubbished?

LionelNashe

Wurly wrote: »

To be honest, i'd rather discuss the issue in my OP so if you have nothing of value to add here, then I don't see why you're still posting.

I'm really not interested in arguing with any of you tbh.

Could have fooled me

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

fr336 wrote: »

Do you think equality is turning for the worst more than ever, or things are just magnified with the internet being in play?

Since time immemorial there has been inequality. Every civilisation and every society has had inequality. It has improved within Ireland - certainly compared with the 1950s and 60s. Globally it has been made more visible through media and the internet. If we look at ourselves as part of a global society then inequality is possibly as prevalent as ever. Is there a solution? I doubt it, as the goal posts will just keep shifting.

Wurly

LionelNashe wrote: »

Could have fooled me

So 'I could have fooled you' by saying I would rather discuss the OP than have an argument with someone? And you take that to mean that I want an argument with someone?

Yeah, I don't get it. Sorry.

bnt

I think a good start would be some way of increasing everyone's IQ by 30 points. Perhaps then we might see some genuine agreement on the right way forward, and the self-discipline to make it happen.

Any system that might involve forcing people to "do the right thing" is doomed from the get-go. As numerous examples from history have demonstrated, you end up with a ruling class who have the "solutions", which they proceed to impose on everyone else, by force if necessary.

Scuid Mhór

Don't blame me, I'm a socialist!

Wurly

bnt wrote: »

I think a good start would be some way of increasing everyone's IQ by 30 points. Perhaps then we might see some genuine agreement on the right way forward, and the self-discipline to make it happen.

Any system that might involve forcing people to "do the right thing" is doomed from the get-go. As numerous examples from history have demonstrated, you end up with a ruling class who have the "solutions", which they proceed to impose on everyone else, by force if necessary.

I agree. This is not about force. The very act of force is resistance.

So discussions are important for educational purposes. We can only find the answers and generate good ideas if we talk to each other.